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Hey guys I have a friend who is making an SM army and it's basically a hurry-up-and-shoot-you-in-the-face-from-two-feet-away-army.
I am making a chaos amry and have been trying to get what can counter that. He's got bikes, land speeders, assault marines (although thats what my terminators are for ),
etc.

Any suggestions?

Oblits are a hard counter to all of that. Chew up assault marines with charging Berzerkers, big HtH termie squads aren't great from CSM.

Well what models do you have

Plasma works great for anti infantry and SOME light vehicle popping. Oblits are good and i personally like two defilers or dreads with dual CCWs. These guys are great at tying up things you dont want to assault your troops.

Well, if he's coming to you, you dont need to worry about a rhino rush to get him in front of you.

I like to use a large squad of Thousand Sons to draw fire walking down the middle of the board ignoring cover - they are expensive, but he cannot ignore that AP3 bolter rapid firing. It means that almost all heavy weapons are ooing to be focused on that unit till its gone, which isnt easy with a 4+ invulnerable save. You may find he avoids line of sight limiting his tactical movement.

Then again, there's nothing like a Zerkers for inflicting some pain.

If you think he's going to be in your face in early turns one, a plasma cannon carrying dread can be sweet.

Plague Marines. Ass Marines, Bikes, and Speeders don't really do gak to Plague Marines without wasting a whole lot of firepower.

Addicted to Bleach wrote:Well what models do you have

I don't actually have any models yet but I have to keep the army around 1800 pts.

I was already planning on having some defilers (maybe 2), but that was it. Of course, I do need some normal Marines, but I want to maintain the "shooty" army for this CSM.

If you want your terms to counter his Assault Marines then do it. With a MoS they will be way cheaper than loyalist terms and absolutely annihilate anything he can throw at you in CC short of TH/SS terms.

Also I love the Ksons idea. A couple of squads will also annihilate anything he runs at you outside a transport. Get some lascannons on oblits or Havocs for the his Rhinos and tear apart his SM with your AP3. Plus the Ksons can move and shoot max range AND the sorc can give them serious punch in CC.

In Summary - A few tank busters in the back, Ksons in the front and your terms > his Assault Marines. Also I take a Khorne DP Lord (though it is risky) but you have a 70% chance of making any squad he can throw at you just vanish in CC. Just an idea. Fill the rest with Plagues for ultra-win!

EDIT: And yes defilers sound good as long as you still have space for at least a couple of oblits / havocs. Maybe 1 instead of 2 though.

Ok guys he just sent a full army list of his (for some reason)

x1 Drop Pod w/ 10-man tac squads
x1 Drop w/ CC Dread
x1 Whirlwind
x1 Vindicator
x1 10-man ass squad
x1 Land speeder w/ Snipah Wifle Scouts
x1 Biker Command squad

any suggestions?

(I may have gotten the command squad part wrong, I haven't looked at the SM codex...)

Two squads of plagues on rhinos are a given and as for 1k sons take a big squad for target saturation. Two defilers would work great against this or even one oblits are another given. Then take 2 DPs with wings. That should get you pretty close to around 1800 points.

I am liking the 1k sons blob backed up by plague marines and Daemons Princes. Go for it.

What I normally use the following for all comers:

Dp,wings
DP,wings
10 Plague marines, 2 meltas, fist, rhino.
10 Plague marines, 2 meltas, fist, rhino.
10 Plague marines, 2 flamers, fist, rhino.
3 Oblits
3 Oblits

That's 1675, leaving 175 for random stuff.

Sanctjud wrote:What I and 10 thousand others normally use the following for all comers:

Dp,wings
DP,wings
10 Plague marines, 2 meltas, fist, rhino.
10 Plague marines, 2 meltas, fist, rhino.
10 Plague marines, 2 flamers, fist, rhino.
3 Oblits
3 Oblits

Fixed

I have no idea why people are suggesting 1k sons. The SMs, especially the bikes, are going to get cover, and theyre not good in assault.

Plagues are sturdy, but I would prefer an additional CSM squad (by going all CSMS) to help out maneuver his limited troop choices. Plagues are going to get stuck in combat for a while, and I prefer offense to defense in order to be quick (especially against a quick SM list like this).

Oblits are going to do nothing special. They are pretty terrible in CC. Unless you feel youll be using the plasma cannon all game, id leave them at home. Theyre not a bad choice, but since you are tailoring your list to beat this SM player, you can do better through other, cheaper options.

Plagues have a fist and twice the number of attacks compared to their tacticals and bikers, same number of attacks to the assault marines......AND "one of the best offenses is a good defense".
I'm not in combat for more than 2-3...since I usually use the DP's as counter attackers.

Sheesh, I said it's my all-comers.

Plasma cannons are still useful to keep the SM player not bunched up.
In addition, the number of wounds a barrage of plasma cannons makes up for cover.

I generally put objectives out in the open...so they HAVE to bring a rhino with them for cover....or bring something else to screen them if they want the objective.
Why are we talking about cc?
They are pretty durable to normal joes. It's the fists which are the issue...but they have their own, so they won't go down without taking some as well.

In addition, they can advance behind the rhino screen then take MM shots midfield at any armored threats. Or open up with TL PG in support of close range PM shooting.

I don't think one has to tailor to any particular group...the choices made in game with any list should be a huge factor in doing well.

In addition, I don't think allowing Attack Bike Squadrons free reign at range is acceptable.
Even with 3+ cover when boosting, str 8 weapons are lethal to those bikers and IMO they need to be taken down fast... or at least kill 1-2 of them first.

As to everyone using the same list... I wouldn't say that.
I would say they use a similar template, but most who want a points efficient list would go with 7 man squads.... I run 10 cause I like larger squads and cause I modeled 10 man squads...

Sanctjud wrote:Plagues have a fist and twice the number of attacks compared to their tacticals and bikers, same number of attacks to the assault marines......AND "one of the best offenses is a good defense".
I'm not in combat for more than 2-3...since I usually use the DP's as counter attackers.

3 CSM squads means additional attacks and movement. There's clearly advantages to both.

The classic saying is actually "The best defense is a good offense".

Sanctjud wrote:Sheesh, I said it's my all-comers.

And I said 10,000 other people use it, is that not true? (its probably an understatement actually...)

Sanctjud wrote:Why are we talking about cc?
They are pretty durable to normal joes. It's the fists which are the issue...but they have their own, so they won't go down without taking some as well.

No, its the fact that they get blown away so easily by meltas, lascannons, etc., and 1 or 2 remaining terminators with 2 attacks isnt going to do anything. Any CC oriented army is going to beat them out (and why would they be assaulting them instead of shooting them if they werent?) and make their points back just like that.

Sanctjud wrote:In addition, they can advance behind the rhino screen then take MM shots midfield at any armored threats. Or open up with TL PG in support of close range PM shooting.

I don't think one has to tailor to any particular group...the choices made in game with any list should be a huge factor in doing well.

This has always been a completely pointless strategy to me. Move them up, out of cover with S&P movement to melta units...when you can just get a troop choice that will do it better. 12" rhino + 2" disembark = 20" range. Scoring, doesnt take a heavy slot, lives longer, has a rhino, etc.



Anyways, I dont want to go deeper or this will turn into a why Oblits suck topic

3 Squads of 10CSM with 2 Meltas, fist, and rhinos.
255 per unit.
3 Squads of 7 PMs with 2 Meltas, fist, and rhinos.
256 per unit.

Extra movement? Maybe due to a larger footprint, but they are no faster than plague marines in regards to movement.

Additional attacks are nice, but it's only balanced by reducing the number attacks that get through from the opponent, making it's mark when combat resolution comes up.

Sorry I was not specific my 'all-comers' comment was about the Obliterator section.

You were talking about CC, so I assumed... you were talking about CC.
Yes, str 8 is a pain on them, but that's why I set them in cover. If one was that scared of that kind of stuff, hide them behind Rhinos, should there be LoS blocking stuff use that... and if there is no choice: reserves.

Why would they be assaulting? There are reasons... but you mentioned CC with them.
There are those that use them while advancing with the rhinos.

They can double tap TL plasma guns and still charge into combat.
If the charge has the possibility of clearing out a squad of SM on an objective at the cost of oblits dying, I'd say that would be worth it and a reason they are charging into combat.

Pointless, maybe, but it's an option. I'm not saying everyone should use it, but until the oblits commit they are relatively safe (assuming an open list environment).

I generally have lesser daemons and plague marines...screen door stuff...
There's terrain along the way or etc. etc.
There are many variables along the way.

What troop choice has a plasma cannon in the Chaos Army list?

why Oblits suck topic

/shrug, cause it's a taste issue.
They've been gold for me, but they don't fit everyone. I wouldn't say they suck, it's more like the person using them just didn't like them to begin with: either due to some self-restrictions in fluff, or have a lower threshold of what is expensive or not.

Actually, you want me to start a thread, I'm interested in your view on Oblits now...

1 Khorne lord with DW and Deamonic steed and berzerker body guard to take wounds and clear up anything he leave's behind. For CC of course. Yes to taking a defilers, but gear it to shooting.

And you'll wanna bring the vindicator down pretty quickly, i suggest bringing your own because there's nothing wrong with bringing a demolisher cannon.

1 Khorne lord with DW and Deamonic steed and berzerker body guard to take wounds, actually kill stuff should he most likely hurts himself, and clear up anything he leave's behind, up to and including his own head.

Fixed

About the Khorne Lord, not everyone is hot on using a slogging squad though.

Honestly, Oblits CAN suck. If you use a group of them, then they can terrorize things, but not in small numbers. Its the same with lootas. I laugh when I see people wanting to only take 5 of them. Not smart
Just my 3 and a half cents

KingCracker wrote:Honestly, anything CAN suck...

Fixed.

Sanctjud wrote:

actually kill stuff should he most likely hurts himself, and clear up anything he leave's behind, up to and including his own head.

out of the tens times i've used this choice he's only hit himself with the axe twice

Also i tend to hide him behind my 2 rhino's so stuff can't shoot him.

Well, he's then stuck with move and run (granted it's better than before), but there are possibilities that he won't move far enough to be covered by the rhinos.

That is if he's alone. Which he will most likely not.

I like using Rhino walls as well, but they are not 100% all the time.
Elevation, mobile opponents using the sides, etc.

Hammering the squad that will contribute offensively at what? Turn 3-4.

Sanctjud wrote:What I normally use the following for all comers:

Dp,wings
DP,wings
10 Plague marines, 2 meltas, fist, rhino.
10 Plague marines, 2 meltas, fist, rhino.
10 Plague marines, 2 flamers, fist, rhino.
3 Oblits
3 Oblits

That's 1675, leaving 175 for random stuff.

This list is quite decent and one of the best CSM builds.
How do you configure the DP's?

Many peopl here had great ideas, but different too. Why not combine them. Here's an example of combining all the marks (would make a great black legion army maybe).

Damon Prince, Wings, MoT, Warptime 175
Lord, MoK, daemon weapon 125

5 Termis: MoS, 1 Champion, 1 Heavy Flamer, 2 combi weapons, 1 powerfist, 1 chainfist, 2 power weapons, 1 lightning claw 220

8 Bezerkers, champ, fist, personal icon 213

10 plague Marins, champ, plasma, melta, fist, personal Icon 200

9 1000Sons plus 1 Sorcerer, doombolt, meltabombs, persoanl icon

Landraider, possession 240

Defilier w 2 extra cc weapons 150

Defiler w 2 extra cc weapons 150

comes in at 1860, but you could trim a little here and there. The plan is to put the bezerkers plus Khorne lord in the raider, charge what you need to. The 1000Sons put the hurt by volume of fire, and the Plague marines screen the 1000Sons from assault. The termis deepstrike where ever they are needed, and bring the pain. Prince does what he does best, KILL! Use this list, or use the ideas, either way, good luck!

I'm suprised nobody has mentioned Noise Marines yet. They can outshoot and out assault normal SMs. NM are a very good choice for the core of any CSM army.

I'm not trying to poo-poo on PMs or berzerkers. PMs with a toughness of 5 and FNP are truely hard to move off of an objective and berzerkers on the charge can put the hurt on damn near anything. I'm not a huge fan of thousand sons.

NMs can be equipped with all assault weapons and the champ can carry a doom siren. They can fire everything they have and then assault at I5, doing a lot of damage before the enemy gets to strike back.

The issue is...they are expensive and no different from MEQ defensively.
Though you can 'kite' and water them, they do not perform a function the CSM list really needs...

Anti-horde/Anti-Infantry is all well and good done by reg. CSM already.

Double/Triple flamers can match the Doom Siren.

________________

@Wuestenfux:

Daemon Princes: that's it. Spartan Princes with just wings. If I have points to spare Mark of Nurgle. I prefer to keep my princes cheap and expendable.

Sanctjud wrote:The issue is...they are expensive and no different from MEQ defensively.
Though you can 'kite' and water them, they do not perform a function the CSM list really needs...

Anti-horde/Anti-Infantry is all well and good done by reg. CSM already.

Agreed, Anti-horde/Infantry is what regular CSM do well, I still got to say the NM are a pretty good fire base with something else. They also fill that horrible horrible slot in the chaos army of a troops choice that sits on a back objective shooting away, contesting whilst still having a good crack at denting the enemy

Good CMS thread/ im taking notes

I've shouted it at others now im gonna shout it here

GET A VINDICATOR. Because nothing can beat a demolisher cannon...except maybe 2 demolisher cannons.

Yeah, and 145 (125) points Vindicator with destroyed Demolisher Cannon is just hilarious. Nothing can beat that