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Hey everyone, here's a list I just came up with. I'm trying to make a more cohesive list. I've been going in too many directions with my CSM.

--List--
Daemon Prince w/ Wings, Mark of Nurgle - 150

Khorne Berzerkers (7 + Skull Champion w/ Power Fist) - 208
Plague Marines (7 w/ 2 Plasma guns) + Rhino (w/ Extra Armor) - 241
Plague Marines (7 w/ 2 Plasma guns) + Rhino (w/ Extra Armor) - 241

Havocs (5 w/ 2 Missile Launchers, 2 Lascannons, Icon of Chaos Glory) - 195
Obliterators (2) - 150
Landraider (Daemonic Possession) - 240

Summoned Lesser Daemons (5) - 65

Total: 1490

--Thoughts--
Four scoring units. In objective games, Havocs can sit on an objective and then lesser daemons could be summoned on top of them. Obliterators could deep strike or sit back against mech heavy lists.

List right now has 10 points left over. Could put dozer blades on the landraider and one of the rhinos. Any better ideas?

Any and all thoughts appreciated.

I tend to head towards a more cc theme

HQ
Chaos Lord,Mark of Khorne, Deamon weapon, Deamonic steed. 170pts

Troops
10 Khorne berzerkers,skull champion with plasma pistol+power fist, 2 plasma pistols, Rhino, Twin linked bolter, Havoc launcher 350pts

5 Khorne Berzerkers, Skull champion, melta bombs 125pts

10 Chaos space marines,Aspiring champion with plasma pistol+power sword, plasma gun, heavy bolter, Mark of Khorne 250pts

Heavy Support
Defiler, dreadnought close combat weapon, and reaper autocannon/heavy flamer 150pts

Predator, turret mounted twin linked lascannon, heavy bolter sponson, twin linked bolter 140pts




Automatically Appended Next Post:
gives you 80 pts to spend on whatever

First you either need more bodies for your havocs or be rid of them. The rule is one body for one weapon. Second i am not a fan of extra armor especially on rhinos since they will die more than likely. Last you need warptime on the prince.

Extra bodies in the havocs simply for wound allocation?

With EA I think for 15 points its worth it as you then have a 1/3 chance over a 1/6 chance of still being able to move on the damage table.

I had been using warptime previously but I cut it in this instance to save 25 points. I suppose the points from the two EA's could go to that.

Where would you propose I generate the points for the havocs from?

I'm having a lot of trouble finding good resources on list making, so any and all help is appreciated.

DP is ok.
Zerkers are ok in the LR
PM’s are meh. I say at least one squad with meltas. Extra armor is not needed, use the points for combi-weapons on champs.

Havocs: IMO don’t mix weapons, one body bag per hvy weapon.

You have only 1 icon to summon daemons…5 man squads are not good…at anything, including holding objectives.

I think 3 rhinos is minimum for mechish lists…LR or not.

now that i've thought about it. get rid of the oblitoraters, in exchange for a basic defiler with extra close combat arm. Plus having the 72" battle cannon is a great help for blasting opponents that are far away

Drop LDs for more bodies in the troops or a rhino for the rhinoless squad.

I say drop havocs for a Defiler and gets best of both oblits and defiler.

Sanctjud wrote:DP is ok.
You have only 1 icon to summon daemons…5 man squads are not good…at anything, including holding objectives.

Cult troops come with marks in in their war gear, the codex states that cult marks have an additional effect on top of hte one described in icons and deep strike. It was my understanding that due to this, any cult troop already counts as having an icon in the unit.


As far as it goes for a minimum of 3 rhinos on a list. How many people should be in a squad if you were to foot slog typically? If you were to drop out the rhinos that only generates another 100 points, about 4 troops.

Why would Cults have a personal icon as a Wargear Choice?

Oh. my. god. How I hate the Icon system.

For the love of god, they are different things.
ICONS bestow the mark, BUT also act as the homer for termies, daemons, and oblits.

MARKS are just MARKS, they only affect the Stat line/save.

The cults have marks on each person so that they would never lose it, unlike other squads that can lose the icon will lose both homer and mark.

The cults have marks but dont carry icons.

Btw... Lascannons and havocs dont mix too well, stick with missile launchers or autocannons

IMO I would drop the DP and add Kharn the betrayer. I would drop the skull champ and his fist for 2 more guys in the Berzerker unit and mount them in the LR with Kharn. Its a disgusting combo when it charges.

The Plaguemarines are good as long as the Extra armor goes away.

Drop the Havocs and the Lesser daemons they are wasted points.

Try 2 vindicators. Also, Dreadnoughts are always a somewhat decent choice.

Here is what one of my average lists looks like
HQ:
Kharn [165]

Elite:
Dreadnought [100]
extra ccw
Dreadnought [100]
extra ccw

Troop:
Berzerkers (9) [189]
Plaguemarines (7) [226]
Plasmaguns (2)
Rhino
Plaguemarines (7) [226]
plasmaguns (2)
Rhino

Heavy Support:
Land Raider [240]
Daemonic Possession
Vindicator [125]
Vindicator [125]

ide say drop the havocs and get more obliterators. and you dont need to deepstrike them just deploy them in a area where they can overlook the field.

Possible get a vindicator

A tip...: I would avoid posting "your lists" or "what I run" as a suggestion. You can show "well I run X and it's effective" but just going HEY THIS IS WHAT I DO! is really not helpful. It's not what he wants to 9/10 I'm betting. (I find this out when I post things, people have their own ideas on lists heavily most of the time). Sorry, really, it was just was bugging me....

Well at the list in it's current form, Sanctjud has what I would say.

Also running single LR's isn't that effective. It's almost hurting you because it's SUCH a firemagnet (and it deserves to be so) that it will be meltad down. My rule of thumb for LR's is take em in pairs or don't touch em.

Dropping that LR would also free you up more points for probably another cult troop squad.

I think it depends on whether you want a shooty army or a cc army.

Mozzyfuzzy wrote:I think it depends on whether you want a shooty army or a cc army.

What depends on that lol ?

The LR I'm assuming?

It really doesn't. I run Deathwing ATM as my main army (albeit a hybrid, it's an "assaultwing") and 1 LR just won't cut it. Two makes people shake in their boots, but one vs. any decent 5E army with meltaguns is very, VERY meh. It's almost like taking 1 dreadnought vs. 2. 1 is kinda like lol but 2 is more saturation and makes the tandem more scary.

I don't see how you could field two landraiders at a 1500 point size. that'd account for almost a quarter of the total points.

Kharn seems fun, but being only T4 with no eternal warrior leaves him a bit vulnerable compared to a DP.

Sorry about not realizing the Icon/Mark issue.

It really does seem that everybody has conflicting opinions about every unit the codex for the most part. Perhaps somebody could just point me out some general tips on what's important to include in order to have a cohesive list at 1500 points? How much should be anti-mech vs anti-infantry. Troop squad sizes for footslogging vs mech rush.

Thanks for all the comments so far.

morgendonner wrote:I don't see how you could field two landraiders at a 1500 point size. that'd account for almost a quarter of the total points.

Kharn seems fun, but being only T4 with no eternal warrior leaves him a bit vulnerable compared to a DP.

Sorry about not realizing the Icon/Mark issue.

It really does seem that everybody has conflicting opinions about every unit the codex for the most part. Perhaps somebody could just point me out some general tips on what's important to include in order to have a cohesive list at 1500 points? How much should be anti-mech vs anti-infantry. Troop squad sizes for footslogging vs mech rush.

Thanks for all the comments so far.

That's why you normally don't field landraider below 1750 lol . Kharn is rediculous. He is a bit more vulnerable but he can hop in a ride and go tear crap up. Remember, DP's may have EW but they are HUGE and can't hide in vehicles.

The only important thing I would say is to have meltaguns and at least 3 troops. Anti-mech = Meltaguns, anti-infantry = everything else. You don't footslog. Mech rush can be variable sizes depending on the cults.

I would say get rid of the extra armor on rhinos, then get rid of havocs all together and get another obliterator squad. and get rid of the lesser daemons to add another obliterator to the existing squad. If that comes out in points. 6 obliterators can really take down some stuff, lascannons, and multimeltas for tanks then plasma cannons for troops.

DP really could use warptime but that is really up to you.

I really like the troop choice selection as plagemarines can hold an objective very nicely while the zerkers tear things up. My last little thought is about possessing the LR. im not a big fan of it, i assume you want to rush the LR up the battle feild and let the zerkers loose? otherwise i dont see a need for possession of a landraider as BS4 is quite nice.

Be rid of extra armor on the rhinos. Period.

Get more bodies in the havocs squad or get rid of them.

For an army such as yours I wouldn't recomend the LR. they are really expensive and they take up a huge percentage of things on your army you should be using for other things. (Like defilers ) Stay away from these until your army is bigger.

I would recommend that you use 10man plaguemarines squads, they are big enough to take care of most things but small enough to be a hard-to-hit target. 7-man squads just seem too small to me.

If I remove the landraider, which it seems I should do, does a rhino really suffice as a transport for the berzerkers?

At what point should a squad be abandoning a rhino (only at immobilized+ or at stunned too?) Obviously it's a bit subjective but general rule of thumb? Should I be trying to fit extra rhinos into the list?

Thanks again for all the advice so far. Taking the advice so far presented, my list looks like this:

175 Daemon Prince (Wings, Nurgle, Warptime)
285 Khorne Berzerkers (9 w/ Personal Icon + Champ w/ P. Fist)
325 Plague Marines (10 w/ 2 Melta + Champ w/ P. Fist, Combi-Flamer + Rhino)
325 Plague Marines (10 w/ 2 Melta + Champ w/ P. Fist + Rhino)
225 Obliterator (3)
150 Obliterator (2)

Total: 1500

Personal icon just because I had 5 points left over. Right now only one plague champion has a combi-flamer.

I'm a big cult player myself and i do run death guard mostly. I have learned that running with three unit of plague marines with powerfist, combiweapon and two melta works the best. I never used extra armor or deamoic on my vehicles, it a waste of points. use a deamon with lash and wings, and for your heavy i like to use defiler. Believe or not plague marines are good in melee, due to their toughness and feel no pain.

Definetly a defiler or vindicator for heavy rather than extra oblitorators, cos of ordnance blast that does evil things to enemy infantry

morgendonner wrote:Hey everyone, here's a list I just came up with. I'm trying to make a more cohesive list. I've been going in too many directions with my CSM.

--List--
Daemon Prince w/ Wings, Mark of Nurgle - 150

Khorne Berzerkers (7 + Skull Champion w/ Power Fist) - 208
Plague Marines (7 w/ 2 Plasma guns) + Rhino (w/ Extra Armor) - 241
Plague Marines (7 w/ 2 Plasma guns) + Rhino (w/ Extra Armor) - 241

Havocs (5 w/ 2 Missile Launchers, 2 Lascannons, Icon of Chaos Glory) - 195
Obliterators (2) - 150
Landraider (Daemonic Possession) - 240

Summoned Lesser Daemons (5) - 65

Total: 1490
.

- The daemons are useless, 10 points more you get a 5 man CSM squad. +65 points
- Drop the Land Raider + 240 points
- Drop Extra Armour + 30 points
-Give atleast 1 squad of PMs melta guns +10 points
- Honestly, dont listen to others here screaming "Oblits!!", Havocs are fantastic units. They are cheaper and can take down light AV better, last longer, and are far better in CC than oblits. However, lascannon havocs are terrible. You want havocs to either be: a) 4x autocannons or b) 2x autocannons, 2x missles. +30 points

Ok, with that (65+240+30+10+30) 385 points, you have a lot of room to work with.

First things first:

-Berzerkers need a rhino. -35 points
-Havocs are going to need 3 more bodies. -45 points

-------------------------

Now your list looks like this:

Daemon Prince w/ Wings, Mark of Nurgle - 150

Khorne Berzerkers (7 + Skull Champion w/ Power Fist) + Rhino - 243
Plague Marines (7 w/ 2 Melta guns) + Rhino - 216
Plague Marines (7 w/ 2 Plasma guns) + Rhino - 226

Havocs (8 w/ 2 Missile Launchers, 2 autocannons/missles, Icon of Chaos Glory) -210
Obliterators (2) - 150


----------------------

Thats the core of your list, with 305 points left to spend freely. From here I would:

-Give the Prince Warptime. -25 points (280)
-Give the Melta Plagues a Fist Champ. -40 (240).
-Switch the plasma plagues to meltas +10 (250).
-Buy more oblits (well, I would personally drop the oblits all together and buy some pred tanks), or buy terminator suicide squads, or buy 2 dreadnoughts to work together, or even buy another squad of troops.


Hope this helps.

Get a defiler because other heavy choices don't have a 72" ordance blast template. Ok the other heavy support options might be better for when your opponent gets close, but nothing else can give your opponents a good blasting apart from imperial guard tanks.

Then speaking of close range destruction might as well get a vindicator because of the strength 10 demolidher cannon on the front.

@Night Lords:

Some minor notes.

5 man daemons are useless, larger squads have their uses.

Hvy support is generally a taste issue, all of them ‘work’.
Though, I don’t think the pred is cost efficient for what you get.
While havocs…/shrug. They lost a lot from the last codex…I’ll personally not see their usage for a while.

I rather get more Scoring CSMs instead.

I never said that they didn't 'work' it's just that i quite like having a pretty good cannon that's ot a range of 72"

But yeah it is taste and I like large blast templates and berzerkers

Sanctjud wrote:@Night Lords:

Some minor notes.

5 man daemons are useless, larger squads have their uses.

Hvy support is generally a taste issue, all of them ‘work’.
Though, I don’t think the pred is cost efficient for what you get.
While havocs…/shrug. They lost a lot from the last codex…I’ll personally not see their usage for a while.

I rather get more Scoring CSMs instead.

Ok...I dont understand the point of your post?

Would you like the math to prove that theyre better than oblits?

Predator tank is far more resilient at long range than oblits (7% chance to destroy pred with lascannon, 40% chance to kill an oblit).

Predator 130 points vs 2 Oblits 150 points:

Pred: 2 lascannons and 2 autocannons

Oblits: 2 lascannons

Preds get more shots for less points, and more resilient. They do not get a plasma cannon. That's the one disadvantage (Melta guns with oblits are near useless if youve equipped the rest of the army with them). If Oblits didnt have the plasma cannon they would be completely useless.

4x AC havocs vs 2 oblits. Havocs do more damage all the way up to AV13 (you can do the math yourself if you dont believe me). Except at long range AV13 is difficult to take down with only a few lascannons as proven by the pred above (7% probability per shot vs AV13, 3.5% vs AV14), so AV13+ is best left to meltas and CC. Havocs have more seperate wounds so long range AT fire does less damage to them.

If the unit is in cover, Havocs have an even better advantage purely due to # of shots.

Well, it’s a taste issue.
Math doesn’t cover application and a variety of other reasons why some people prefer one over the other.

Oblits have done well for me, havocs not so much.
I’m only putting down my experience.
Though math is pretty objective, the set up for the math is pretty subjective.

My rationale of why preds are not cost efficient has nothing to do with oblits.
I’m saying if you look at the game system as a whole, the preds pay more for the same kit as others do.
In addition they are apples to oranges… the comparison you have put down doesn’t help.

One doesn’t get Oblits solely for lascannons. One pays the premium to have a variety of weapons at his/her disposal…mainly plasma cannons. Something you won’t find outside of dreads and oblits in the CSM list.

Preds get more shots yes.
Less points, yes.
More resilient, YMMV.
No one said these face value things were not true, with the pred you have only those weapons and can’t do horde control when you need it.
Preds are less points, but you get what you pay for…less flexibility.
One melta shot, the pred can die. That same melta shot at most can kill one oblits out of 2.

Etc. etc., the back and forth can go on, hence the apples to oranges, and the subjective way we set up the comparison.

The note about havocs, I never they are crap, I just said I’d never use them cause they lost a lot from the last edition.
Mainly Tank hunters or infiltrate, scoring status, actual cult status… it’s for those reasons I stopped using them.
It’s nice they can still bring the ML’s but it’s the AC’s I used to use. Esp. cause I wanted to use a weapon the Loyalists didn’t get so it just wouldn’t be Spiky Smurfs.

My point is that all the hvies have pros and cons.
At the end of the day it’s a taste issue/ a preference issue. I did not completely discount anything, just noted that from a particular point of view there are cons to the options proposed outside of oblits cause I know there are those that would jump at the opportunity to poo poo the oblits….which you demonstrate very well.

i feel as though it's time to poo poo some oblits.

People are ignoring the plain and simple fact that a vindicator does crowd control and blows up other tanks at the same time.