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Vanguard Vets

So, everyone is always hating on these poor guys. Overpriced, not as good as the competition, yadda yadda, you get the picture. I actually love vanguard and take them in most of my games.

So are they as bad as everyone says or are they actually badasses in disguise.

The competition:
There are 4 real elements in the space marine codex for combat troops.
Honor guard
Command squads
Terminators (both varieties)
Assault squads.

How these guys stack up against vanguard depends on how you use them.

Vanguard can be fielded in three ways. On foot, with jump packs, and deep striking.

On Foot:
Generally, I cannot find any good use to fielding vanguard on foot. They are strictly inferior to all four other assault choices for a variety of reasons. Honor guard are more survivable and far more dangerous. Command squads are pretty much the same as vanguard but come with feel no pain. Termies are far more survivable and more dangerous (and cheaper if you deck the vanguard out like termies). And assault squads are cheaper. The only thing vanguard have over the last two is customizability. They can be fielded with a transport of some kind but all of the others can as well so that isn’t a particularly good endorsement of vanguard.


With Jump Packs:
With jump packs the vanguard are more customizable than assault squads and quicker than the other three options. Unfortunately, running across the field (even with a jump pack) is a good way to get your guys killed. Assault squads can deal with this by being cheap but even assault termies don’t do well running across the field. Cover must be heavily utilized which slows down the squad. Throw in 2-3 storm shields and the vanguard will be able to shrug off some powerful hits but they will still take a small beating running across. Decently decked out a vanguard squad will run at around 400 pts. This is a little more than an assault squad with a company commander attached and about as effective with the added benefit that a stray fist will not pop the character. In 4th edition this squad was heavily utilized by many a marine player.

With the changes in cover with 5th edition this type of squad isn’t as easy to hide and will get peppered by sporadic anti-infantry fire as it advances. Vehicles such as rhinos need to be used. Vanguard are decent as either a counter assault or as a forward hitter coming in behind the rhinos. However, terminators in a land raider do this far far better for only around 100 pts more, and they get to go out in front of the rhino comfy in their land raider’s survivability. The same goes for honor guard and command squads in a land raider. The only thing vanguard have over these two is the increased mobility after the first target is dead. Termies and their ilk have to slog it 6 inches a turn to their next target. Fortunately for the termies and unfortunately for the vanguard these targets are usually not to spaced out.
Some armies such as tau and elder can and will back up from such an assault while shooting and in these cases vanguard edge out the terminators for value being able to chase the offending units down. But in most cases, MEQ types, the enemy will just poor fire into the offending squad and the charge while hoping for the best. In these cases terminators are generally better.

So, in conclusion: If your going to take an assault squad with an attached character I would suggest subbing it out to try a vanguard squad for the same role. Jump packs, 1x relic blade, 2x lightning claws, 2x storm shield, 4x melta bombs. It kills more, can take offending las and melta hits on the storm shields, and wont lose its biggest hitter to a stray fist for around the same number of points ~ 400. If you don’t like such a squad then vanguard aren’t for you in this role either.


Deep Striking:
The real power of vanguard is the heroic intervention rule. This is the reason to buy these overly expensive marines in power armor. One of only two units in the game who can do what they do. The other is the highly feared (well, not so much anymore) calladis assassin.

The deep striking ability does come with some risk. The squad could arrive at the wrong time and it can scatter way off target. For the first part of this discussion I will assume the squad arrives where you want it (or at least scatters to a favorable position). Deviation will be discussed later.

Lets compare the vanguard to assault terminators. Every does anyways. Terminators are tougher, hit harder, and all have an invul save. Vanguard are more customizable, have access to melta-bombs (can kill dreads easier), and are more survivable against light arms fire. Let me elaborate on the last. Vanguard show up next to what they want to kill and kill it. Then they take fire for a turn and move on to the next target. Terminators slog it up the table and take fire. They assault one target, kill it, and take more fire. Then they have to slog it to the next target, usually taking ANOTHER turn of fire. Sure in one turn they will take less casualties, but they spend far more time in the enemies’ gun sights than vanguard.

So you solve that problem, you give the termies a land raider, every does. Now the terminators cost 580 points for the squad. For that 250 points, 260 with a multi-melta, your terminators get the chance to show up where you want them most of the time. The enemy gets a decent chance to stop you from doing so, and most people have enough melta guns to do it. The vanguard get a pile of extra bodies with extra attacks. Point for point this now makes the vanguard the equal of terminators in the taking fire part of the game and their superior in the killing part of the game (580 points of vanguard will rock the terminators easily in combat). Yes, I know that I am avoiding the matter of the land raider’s awesome firepower but frankly, if the land raider is shooting at full str then those rock hard termies are doing precisely nothing. There are times when this is a good idea but one document cannot account for all battlefield situations.

On particularly masochistic poster decided to post a query about how awesome it would be to field five vanguard with thunder hammers and storm shield. Termies with jump packs. People quickly jumped on him saying things such as “10 termies are cheeper and wont die to the first squad to shoot them”, “one prince + 3 oblits will own this”, “your post is stupid”, etc. I hate to have to point this out but 10 termies will never make it anywhere at full str, the vanguard will, and the lash + oblits beats any assault unit in the game (and most shooty units) but actually falls in the face of deep striking vanguard. A more reasonable comparison would be again, the 8 termies in a land raider. At 380 ish those vanguard are 200 pts cheeper than the 8 termies. This gives them the ability to buy 5 more vanguard and another two shields. 10 vanguard with that many storm shields is actually very hard to whittle down. The firepower required to kill them would gut the 8 man terminator squad (with some cunning wound allocation abuse the vanguard might actually live longer). The terminators are also praying nobody will melta their land raider and force them to hoof it, the vanguard just show up and kill whatever pleases them avoiding those pesky anti-terminator units.

But what is the point of this squad, or any assault squad for that matter? The mantra of assault should always be “shoot the assaulty bits, assault the shooty bits”. Sounds easy doesn’t it? But never as easy to pull off, unless you have vanguard. They have the unique ability to show up and gut your opponents’ troops. Almost all armies have a few squads that hang back shooting and holding an objective. Vanguard were made to come out of nowhere, crush these units, and move on to harass the enemy. Do not waste them by assaulting the enemies assault units, go kill his troops. Other units have to get past any blockers that are put in the way and must deal with any counter assault elements that are hiding behind said blockers. Vanguard easily avoid both problems by seeing them coming and just showing up somewhere else.

So, are they worth their points? Well, if they don’t scatter they sure are. I would even go so far as to say they are better point for point than assault terminators, if they don’t scatter.


Risks:
But what about the scatter? Well, all abilities have a weakness, this is theirs. Your just going to have to work around this.

Locator beacons are the obvious choice. Personally I like 2x pods with dreads in them in the first wave. This gives you two useful units in the back field as well as forcing your enemy to shoot his anti-tank weapons at the dreads and not the pods. People always say “just shoot the pod” but in a real game whatever came out of the pod is equally dangerous.

So if your not next to a locator beacon where do you deep strike? I prefer toward the corner of the intended target. That leaves ¾ of the possible scatter directions free (along the front of the intended target, along the side, away from). I also deep strike as close as possible so that if I scatter away I at least have a chance of still assaulting and if I scatter across I might just pass the unit completely. This actually gives you a very high chance of being able to assault the intended target with your vaulted vanguard.

Lastly, squad size is important. It is very useful to have an odd number of models. By that I mean that when you circle up your guys deep striking you want one or two in the outer circle. This extra guy can go anywhere he pleases around the squad giving you an inch of leeway when deep striking. 5 guys works, 6-7 is poor, 8 is great, 9 and 10 work fine.


Well, this has been a long document to write and it probably rambled on a little to much. Hopefully it has been helpful. If you are unconvinced try playing a test game where your vanguard always hit. You might find they are a useful tool the marines have access to. Not the kill all hammer that termies are but the surgical knife of a cunning tactician.

O, and I usually run 10x with relic blade, 4x claws, 4x storm shield, and 4x melta bombs. Kind of expensive but it hits like a ton of bricks at initiative 4, can combat squad if needed fairly well, and I have yet to see any shooty unit that can stand up to it.

You missed just one fine point, my friend.

Vanguard Veterans can make Sweeping Advances, unlike Assault Terminators (or any S&P units like Oblits).

With the new importance on Combat Resolution, this is a big deal. If Terminators win a combat against a unit, but fail to wipe it, the survivors always get away. If they can rally, you have to waste more power to finish them off. Vanguard Vets have a decent chance (at I4) of running down the unit. Sure, you won't destroy Space Marines outright with it, but you'll force those extra No Retreat! wounds.

Just cause they can get melta bombs doesn't mean they kill Dreads easy...hitting a mobile dread is a pain.

A chainfist from the Tactical Termies are a great answer to dread hvy, even the normal Thunderhammer is decent due to the 3++ that will make more able to hit.

I hate to have to point this out but 10 termies will never make it anywhere at full str, the vanguard will, and the lash + oblits beats any assault unit in the game (and most shooty units) but actually falls in the face of deep striking vanguard.

Well… 10 termies on foot getting shot up along the way is shooting not dedicated at other units.
Vanguard showing up from DS is nice, but they will be dead after they do their job. (Counter attack, or they manage to do only a single round combat).

Vs. Lash and oblits, it’s not hard to just stay in reserves and gamble on what comes in when and just stay far from the vanguard.
If there Is a building they can stay on the top floor and be immune to a charge if there are more floors. Or stay in cover or near impassible terrain to make it worse off for the vanguard.
Were things like that considered?

The firepower required to kill them would gut the 8 man terminator squad (with some cunning wound allocation abuse the vanguard might actually live longer).

So….. 10 models with power armor and some storm shields are more durable than 8 Termies with 2+/3++ in a LR?
Wait what?
So they get an increase of 25% for a loss of 50% durability to small arms. But have the same save vs. low AP.
I don’t know, it would seem 8 Termies are more durable to 10 Vanguard.
Wound allocation is harder to double up on with large squads like that, making it moot.

the vanguard just show up and kill whatever pleases them ....

I think it’s these kinds of lines that make some people not take them seriously. Showing up and killing stuff is a very short term view on their inclusion to an army.

All this ‘avoiding counter charges’/’getting to backfield troops’ it applies to anything that deepstrikes, not just vanguard.
The vanguard ‘CAN’ engage a turn earlier, but that’s not a big deal if the opponent has to sit his guys on the objective, so it’s moot to need to charge them ‘now’ when you will on your turn anyway, and save some points and not take MEQ who are what? 30-40 points each.

I don’t like them very much when you look at the opportunity cost.
What they have is a ‘trick’. One that requires something to not let them scatter, an opponent who never learns from the first time something bad happens to him, an empty backfield, a player that plays an unsupported static element, doesn’t play a fully mobile list, has no land speeder storms, inquisitors with mystics, less hvy terrain and low buildings, lack of counter attack, etc.

Simple and effective is how most people go at it.
Vanguard are like a scalpel, it needs ideal situations to make the most of it coupled with a narrow application… which is not something SM do well at.

/shrug, people will use what they want. If it’s good in you hands, it’s good for you.

Lesser daemons from the CSM codex can assault after deepstriking.

The 'assault after deepstriking' ability is practically zero-sum; yes, you can assault a turn earlier and therefore have less risk of losing models to the enemy's shooting phase, but you have considerably more of scattering onto the target unit or out of range of the 6" assault.

Another 'yes' to tailoring a list to maximize Vanguard, as with Drop Pods with locator beacons, but it's fairly easy to destroy a single drop pod, and multiple drop pods quickly soak up a fair amount of points in redundant teleport homers, points which then have to be accounted for in an expensive unit like Vanguard in a fairly model limited army already.

The ultimate question is whether or not Vanguard are fundamentally worth 30 points per model for a vet assault Marine? And, ultimately, surely not.

I am planning on using Shrike with his 4e Personal Guard
-Shrike
-10 Vanguard Veterans [Paired Lighting Claws, Jump Packs] 805 points {With Melta-Bombs: 855 points}

I am used to 2,500-3,000+games
I was wondering has anyone done this yet and is it worth the points vs. effectiveness.

Edit: nvm, vanguard can't run (or even shoot for that mater) if they do their intervention....but after that, they are still fast, and I've heard that they make a good bodyguard for shirke, on the simple virtue that they can keep up with him (Jump 12, run, assault)

On that note, Shrike in the same list as Vanguard means fleet Vanguard, which makes their intervention a little more viable. If they scatter off? Hey, they're fleet! They can still get there!

Well..... what tourney has consistent 2500-3000 points that doesn't introduce ridiculous missions on a consistent basis?

If one uses it for essentially APOC, then use it for APOC, I don't think the experiences in 2500+ point games translates to well to the normal competitive points values of 'normal' 40K.



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@ Starbomber109:
Wrong, the Vanguard are not allowed to run.

Please read page 62 of the Vanguard again...it's right there in the entry.

I'd be leery of using an 800 point Power Armored unit in anysize game. That's just asking for one good Battle Cannon round or Daemon Shell or Vortex Missle or Hellstorm Plasma Breath or... Would the unit be awesome? Yeah. Too awesome. I just can't see it lasting very long.

800 points for 11 models? No. Not even in a 3,000 point game.

Vanguard in general are just too expensive for what they offer. Sure they're very customizable so you could argue that in XYZ specific instance vs ABC specific enemy, theyre totally worth it... but the rest of the time they arent.

we should face it, Vanguard are nice overpriced toys we got in the last codex, but they were broken in the box with no refunds or exchanges

use the models as Jpack captains until this broken unit gets fixed next codex and till then spend the points on Sternguard instead

alot of your math factors in a 10 man vanguard squad against an 8 man termie squad in a raider
I'd rather have a 5 man termie squad in the raider w/ multimelta, for 460 points...crushes the crap out of vanguard for efficiency. you get the equivalent firepower of a devastator squad (4 heavy weapons, anyone?) combined with the charging power of 5 terminators, which is statistically as durable as a squad of 10 vanguard to small arms, and probably just as much to heavier ap2 fire because I doubt you have 10 stormshields.

vanguard are useful in VERY specific situations... not normally, and i'd never include them in a tournament list because of their specialization.

RustyKnight wrote:I'd be leery of using an 800 point Power Armored unit in anysize game. That's just asking for one good Battle Cannon round or Daemon Shell or Vortex Missle or Hellstorm Plasma Breath or... Would the unit be awesome? Yeah. Too awesome. I just can't see it lasting very long.

I seem to recall calculating that if you took jump packs, melta bombs, and double thunder-hammers on all ten models, you could actually exceed 900 points.

There was a similar thread several months back wherei i did apoint comparison.


Basically their horrible at their job have no invulnerable save unless you pay out the nose for this and ultimately other units can do their job better.

Sure you can take 8 Vanguard w/ Stormshields and Thunderhammers for something like 70 points a model or take a landraider crusader w/ 8 TH and SS terms and it would be cheaper.



To expensive ; no invulnerable ability ; weak special ability ( it is when coupled with a locator beacon you have to remember that it requires another unit to be in position to work).


Overall its a crap unit.

RustyKnight wrote:I'd be leery of using an 800 point Power Armored unit in anysize game. That's just asking for one good Battle Cannon round or Daemon Shell or Vortex Missle or Hellstorm Plasma Breath or... Would the unit be awesome? Yeah. Too awesome. I just can't see it lasting very long.

I'm getting shivers thinking about it myself

10 Vanguard with TH/SS, melta bombs and jump packs clocks in at 810 points.

Check out this 1500 point list using that unit. LOL.

Space Marine Captain @ 180 pts Digital Weapons, Jump Pack, Plasma Pistol, Relic Blade
10-man Tactical Squad @ 255 pts Meltagun; Missile Launcher; Drop Pod w /locator beacon; Sgt w/Combi-Meltagun; Power Fist
10-man Tactical Squad @ 255 pts Meltagun; Missile Launcher; Drop Pod w /locator beacon; Sgt w/Combi-Meltagun; Power Fist
10 man Vanguard Veteran Squad @ 810 pts Jump Packs; Melta Bombs, Thunder Hammers, Storm Shields

1500 points.

It's probably one of the cheaper armies at $168.75 (full retail) for the commander box, 2 tac squad boxes, 2 assault marine boxes and 2 Th/SS bitz packs and a jump pack from a bitz site.

I think it would be fun to play with once.

This was a great thread started off with an amazingly well written article. I know that in my hands the unit wouldn't stand a chance because I have the 'epic failure' gene for making armour saves... Playing these guys sounds a lot like using a highly specialized eldar aspect warrior army. Very effective, but very fragile if not used perfectly.

Agree with threads above
Shame as the models are awesome

I take that back I have seen a successful pedro kantor list with them it was alright it mainly used the drop pods to bring locator beacons on for support and pedro to give them the plus one attack.


One of the weird things about Vanguard though is a little fuzzy

5 Vanguard w/ Jump packs 175

then they still have the option of buying a drop pod.

Yeah so

2 Sternguard untis w/ Drop and pedro

1 vanguard w/ Drop pod jump packs.



You cant put them in the drop pod but it raises your count on drop pod models so you now deep strike both Sternguard Second turn in comes the Vanguard.

The issue is not their offensive power.
The issue is points and defensive qualities.

Kantor doesn't help them with that....and with Kantor, you'll most likely want to spend the points on Sternguard instead.

Who rape at range, cheaper, and score.

Yeah he does because the vanguard are going be coming in to support the Sternguard who are in Hand To Hand combat.


Its surprisingly effective.
Pedro
2 Squads of Sternguard
1 Dreadnought
2 Squads of Scout
2 Squads of Vanguard ( he only gave a few powerfist I think there were 1 or two and the sgt had a TH)



Everything is in your deployment in the first turn the sternguard focusing fire etc..


it worked rather well.

Well, it is probably time to respond, been away for the weekend.

Yup, pedro is quite fun with vanguard. Makes them very powerful and they will quickly pull the sternguard squad out of whatever fire pedro callously dumped them in. Such a list needs the two small squads of vanguard so you have a very good chance of showing up with at least one turn 2.

Of the other chars the only one that helps any is shirke. He makes them crazy fast and allows one squad to assault first turn. You can even throw in some scout bikers for a triple first turn assault...or a failed first turn role.

On the subject of crazy expensive squads...I would limit it to 3 such models per squad. I would really spread the gear around, storm shields on guys who are there to take wounds, power weapons on those who do the hitting, no mixing and matching.

The 'assault after deepstriking' ability is practically zero-sum; yes, you can assault a turn earlier and therefore have less risk of losing models to the enemy's shooting phase, but you have considerably more of scattering onto the target unit or out of range of the 6" assault.

Its not actually. Placed intelligently the vanguard have around a 90% chance of surviving and a ~70% chance of being able to assault. With the odd guys in the outside ring you have an inch of extra room to play with which helps a huge amount.

Vs. Lash and oblits, it’s not hard to just stay in reserves and gamble on what comes in when and just stay far from the vanguard.

Holding units in reserve might be a good way to counter pods but it is pants at killing guys who come in randomly. Either you show up first and they show up and kill unsupported parts of your army while you are stuck at the wall or they show up far later when you finally get your full army in in which case it is exactly the same as if you hadn't kept guys in reserve. The chances you will pull it off something useful are poor and the penalty tactically is very high.

All this ‘avoiding counter charges’/’getting to backfield troops’ it applies to anything that deepstrikes, not just vanguard.
The vanguard ‘CAN’ engage a turn earlier, but that’s not a big deal if the opponent has to sit his guys on the objective, so it’s moot to need to charge them ‘now’ when you will on your turn anyway, and save some points and not take MEQ who are what? 30-40 points each.

Well, all the 'now' talk is because sitting around taking fire for a turn isn't cool and if you can kill something before that happens life becomes better. What other squads are you deep striking in? 5 termies? 10 marines? No other single unit will show up and kill as much as vanguard in one turn so they will take more fire and be more likely to die (very few deep strikers are more survivable than vanguard, there are some, i know). The whole point is that you can kill whatever is forced to stay in the backfield and have the speed to come back and help afterwords.
People always say vanguard will get shot off the table after they kill their target. Well, any other unit won't kill anything before they receive the same fire and get crushed utterly. So why deep strike? Well, people are wrong, generally 10 marines are not shot off the table in one turn without a huge concentrated effort. Deep strikers are generally able to avoid the places that would allow that kind of effort to be brought to bear.


Points, points, points. They may be a decent judge of value but they aren't everything. 10 marines with a fist, meltagun, and lascannon (or multi-melta) in a rhino will kill dam near anything in the game point for point on planet boling ball. Why don't people load up on basic marines, because points aren't everything. Certain utility units pay more than their killing value for the ability to do things others cannot. For instance, wolf guard pay for the ability to take any combination of weapons they want and the ability to join other units. Do you really think the 3 points and loss of a bolter are justified by an extra attack?

@Hollismason:

Good, but I would always assume the Sternguard are in combat to then have the Vanguard bail them out.

You know, that's bad.
That means they counter assaulted an enemy unit, and it's not the opponent's turn and allows them to shoot at the guys, when normally they would have been locked in combat and hopefully win at the end of the opponents' turn.

/shrug... I rather see how effective it is in more situations than just one.

______

And a minor note.
Read my post at face value: Kantor does not directly alter the defensive qualities of the Vanguard... there's no way you can say otherwise.

Indirectly prob. but the situation presented doesn't require Kantor to be there for that combo to work.
But there is the issue that the Vangaurd are not guarenteed to be there turn two.....which means:
A: gives more time for the opponent to finish sternguard.
B: gives the more squishy stuff time to redeploy if need be, or focus elsewhere.

It's essentially 2-3 turns to react to the pod landing locations or to just kill the pods as well.
Which results in chancy deepstrikes at that point.

/shrug, everyone gets different milage out of them. I'm sure the way you run it works well enough. It looks well enough. But one pays so much for a unit that needs a set of conditions to do well...the oppurtunity cost is just blinding for me.

Its not my list I have played against it.

basically it was

PedroKantor

Troops
4/4 ratio I think of Flamer to Melta 10 and drop LB
4/4 ratio i think of flamer to melta 10 drop LB
Dreadnought Barebones w/ h. flamer and drop w/ lB

5 Man Scout w/ Powerfist
5 Man Scout w/ Powerfist ( late game grabber of objectives

Fast Attack
Landspeeder
5 to seven?Man Vanguard w/ Powerfist ; Thunderhammer
5 to seven? man Vanguard w/ Powerfist Powerfist

We were playing 1850


Basically first turn I got

Pedro Kantor 2 squads of Sternguard dropping in my deployment and targeting stuff. Scouts running into my deployment.

2nd Turn was a dreadnought and a vanguard squad.


it was surprisingly a very effective army.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh I was playing mechanized marines standar etc.. Term/ LR / Libby/ scouts etc..

Well, telling us his army is only so useful.
What did you have, how did you deploy.
Open list environment, pick up game, tourney game, practice game?

How comfortable are you with your list, how often do you play?
How were the dice rollz....etc.

Though prob. impossible to track, the more games that they show up in the better.
One game can show alot of things, but in the scope of things means really little.

Some people lose to unfamiliar things...they adapt and then it's not so good, etc.
Can't count on everyone being 'suprised' by things and making mistakes (if mistakes were made).

What about other lists/races/lists taken into consideration?

I can see a skimmer mech list take that list apart, and I've seen many mech lists around.

As to the list:

Dreads are not troops.
Sternguard are not troops. (they count as scoring).
Scouts are the troops (side note, local army comp would not be 100/100 due to min/maxed troops, but few care about army comp anymore).
Flamer/melta combis on sternare pretty good.

But it doesn't seem to have a long term goal.
5 Man scouts are IMO not a great plan for getting objectives late in the game consistantly.

Sternguard make up for the light amount of troops. I'm pretty good at what i play and it gave me a lot of trouble.

Its a interesting list overall and seemed to work fairly effectively ; I played marines. your mileage may vary though with Vanguard.


Usually I find a 7 man unit with 2 powerfist @ around the 295 mark is still fairly steep. I remember he did have more scouts than that maybe. I've seen the list played against various armies it faired pretty well in all of them and it absolutely devastated a imperial guard army.

Nob bikers didn't fair that well against it either.

Pedro having leadership of 10 and giving everyone stubborn makes it so you are going to need to kill every sing one of those marines if you charge them otherwise Vanguard hit you pretty solidly.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
That's pretty much the only effective list I've sen that use the vanguard. I guess you could make a similar Dread Drop army with MOF and Vanguard if you wanted.

This discussion was for Vanguard not Sternguard(who are a alot better choice)

If someone else mentioned this and I missed it I apologize, but If you take drop pods and give them locator beacons your Vanguard will not scatter as Locator beacons are diffrent then teleport homers by allowing any deepstriking unit not to scatter. Through in 6 inches away from the end of an open drop pod you can reilably herioc intervention anything withing 12 inches of the drop pod's open doors. Remember that thing is 8 to ten inches accross opened up. It is a great unit when it is guarrenteed to hit home, however very pointy, so a few bad roles and like termies you really feel it.

Wouldn't you measure from the Hull of the Pod, rather than the doors?

That is a grand and fun FAQ question. Same answer as "do the doors block enemy movement" and "Can I shoot the doors" which leads to some crazy things happening.