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Of course the doors block movement, not because they are doors, but because they are part of a model. Either way, doors aren't 'hull'.

Also, I want a trebuchet to throw Pod doors.

But what I think you meant was "shoot through the doors" which is of course, Yes if they are open, No if they are closed.

So you solve that problem, you give the termies a land raider, every does. Now the terminators cost 580 points for the squad. For that 250 points, 260 with a multi-melta, your terminators get the chance to show up where you want them most of the time. The enemy gets a decent chance to stop you from doing so, and most people have enough melta guns to do it. The vanguard get a pile of extra bodies with extra attacks. Point for point this now makes the vanguard the equal of terminators in the taking fire part of the game and their superior in the killing part of the game (580 points of vanguard will rock the terminators easily in combat). Yes, I know that I am avoiding the matter of the land raider’s awesome firepower but frankly, if the land raider is shooting at full str then those rock hard termies are doing precisely nothing. There are times when this is a good idea but one document cannot account for all battlefield situations.

This is a flawed, if not biased twist on the vanguard vs termies issue.

Basically the vanguards are not worth 30 p each for a model that dies just as easy as a 16p marine.

And landraiders are far from needed in a mobile terminator army. It is more potent point-for-point to just take a librarian with your termie squad while no longer having them limited in size due to transportation issues.

Vanguards are also dependent on support squads AND need expensive wargear to give them at least a resemblance to the killing and staying power of assault terminators.
A more even comparison would thus be:
Vanguards + wargear + locator pods / scout bikes

Vs.

Assault terminators + locator pods / scout bikes + librarian


Lets assume the pods/scout bikes even each others out as both squad types need them.

A minimal terminator unit with extreme mobility will cost you 300p (librarian + terminators)
This gives us a mix of claws and hammers plus a librarian with an additional shooty or assault boosting power.

Now what do we get in the way of vanguards for 300p?

7 naked models (jumppacks) but that is not enough, they need killing and staying power.
So we give them 3 shields and 3 power weapons including the sergeant, now they can take hidden fists and actually kill about as many MEQ as a minimal terminator squad.
This squad all of a sudden costs 310 points, more then the terminators with their librarian.
If they are to be given AT capability and stay in the same point range then meltabombs go in, other wargear go out.then

Downside of the terminators is they take up an elite and a HQ slot (not many people use both HQ slots anyway so its not a big downside).
They also cant assault on teleport.

On the plus side is the terminator squad is more mobile jumping 24 instead of 12.
Can take fire far better then the vanguards.
Have shooting powers with the librarian (like a MEQ killing template).
Can take out vehicles better then the vanguard (hammers kill dreads better then meltabombs.
And can use the wide abilities of the librarian like hood, force weapon, melee and shooting powers, escape from bad melee (what can vanguards do if trapped with 30 cheap gaunts or grots, the terminators can gate away).

Overall I would go for the terminators unless my army depended heavily on elite and Hq slots.

Vanguards are to fragile and to dependant on that DS assault move, terminators can and do manage without that and everything being less KISS is a worse choice.


The one thing I havent tried out yet though is a locator army with a vanguard squad led by a gating librarian, that might go for quite a punch.

Vanguard can be good in larger games. 2500+ to Appoc

In games this size you can binge on expensive units and not sweat on losing them.

I am running both of them with my Crimson Fists list, 2 slots for sternguard of course and the other two home in off the pods which most people never seem to attack the turn it comes down.

let me guess.

Two five man scout squads

Pedro

2 sternguard squads

2 vanguard squads

Powerful rush, but with a crash and burn later. kinda like Redbull

Nope, 2 stenies, Pedro, 2 5 man scout, 1 vanguard, one honour guard, and some assualt termies with a libbie

Meh.
I'd like to see some more actual troops.
2 Min sized units... the shame.

give them jump packs and meltabombs! kill the enemies best tank!

Yeah, with a unit that costs more then the tank itself

Only used Vanguard Veterans once, and it was in Apocalypse against an Eldar team fielding 2 titans. Scout bikers, deep strike onto the beacon, assault the titans with melta bombs...that worked.

That was the only time I could see this being useful. Way too many things out there will AP3 your socks off.



The real advantage to Terminators that most people don't recognize is not the Terminators themselves. They're great and all, but it's the fact that you have to concentrate a ridiculous amount of fire on Assault Terminators to kill them. That's AFTER you crack the Land Raider. If you play them in conjunction with versatile heavy hitting maneuver elements (like MM/HF speeders...), you're basically either ramming a squad of Terminators down your opponent's throat, or you're letting him try to deal with your Terminators while you melta or flame the crap out of soft targets of opportunity.


IMO Vanguard are useful in Apocalypse, but I would never use them in a normal game.

Yeah you can easily field a 6 man thunderhammer and stormshield 4 Lighting claw squad that tears everything apart in apocalypse.

Sanctjud wrote:Meh.
I'd like to see some more actual troops.
2 Min sized units... the shame.

Remember, My Sternguard are not min sized and are scoring.

This seems a lot like the BA Veteran Assault Squad, you can go nuts kitting them out and wasting points or you can use them with some restraint and great fun,

Why not put a couple dreads in pods with locator beacons, everyone is scared of these, use Tigurius so you can reroll the reserve rolls for the Vanguard and bring them in to counter assault a unit locked up with the dread, or hold off the powerfist that was closing in on the dreadnought. Or just wreak havoc on the enemy lines along with the dreads!

You only need two or three SS/TH you don't need to give everybody one.

@doubled:
Well, Sternguard are not troops in the strict sense.
Scoring =/= troop.

Hence the reason I included 'actual' before 'troops'

In addition, some comp systems run on % of each FoC... you can't lump Sternguard into the Troop FoC...etc.

IMO, there is a reason there are 6 troop slots...I generally take a minium of 3 troop units in any army I run. /shrug, just how I see it. Min sized troops generally points in the direction of min/maxing.

Its a incredibly difficult unit to use properly I think that is what scares people off. I had at first written something very similar but then started messing around with them.

Are they something I use regularly? Nope. Do I use them ? Yes, sometimes.

I like using 2 5 man squads w/ Sternguard w/ Pedro thats pretty damn fun.

Not super duper awesome but it is pretty fun to Drop 2 Squads of Sterguard down in someones deployment if they get charged GREAT hope you kill all of them as they have stubborn.

Next turn a squad of Vanguard probably is going to beat the stuffing out of whatever charged them.