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Now this one is confusing me.

It's generally accepted that Eldritch Storm scatters, thus rendering it a totally useless power.

People seem to be ruling that Thunderclap doesn't scatter.

They're both 'Psychic Shooting attacks', they both use the same place the template wording, although with different parameters. They're both big template attacks. The only difference between the two powers is Eldritch Storm has a weapon profile. Is that enough of a functional difference between the two powers to make Storm scatter about and Thunderclap doesn't?

It seems to me that they either both don't scatter or they both do scatter.

Aramoro

As a psychic shooting attack, I would argue that they both follow the basic rules for shooting. In this case, they are blast & therefore scatter. However that's just how I'd play it, wait for Gwar to make an official ruling.

Shas'O Dorian wrote:However that's just how I'd play it, wait for Gwar to make an official ruling.

I already did, it is in my FAQ.

SW.37.03 – Q: Is a Rune Priest who successfully uses “Thunderclap” hit by the large blast marker? Similarly, does the Large Blast Marker scatter?
A: No and No. This is because while it uses the Large Blast Marker to determine who is hit, it does not use the “Blast” rules, it uses its own special rules instead, which state that only enemy models touched by the marker are hit and do not mention scatter whatsoever. [R.a.W]

Eldritch Storm on the other hand is used as a normal weapon with the Rules "Range: 18" S:3 AP: - Pinning, Large Blast", so it uses the Blast Rules, thus it scatters.

Similar Effect, Different wording, Different Results. Yay for GW Consistency!

It's usually a good habit to post the rules quote so others might understand where the confusion is.

A rune priest may use Thunderclap as a psychic shooting attack. Place the large blast marker so that it is touching the Rune Priest. Any enemy model touched by the marker takes a S3 hit with an AP of 5.

This psychic power is used in the shooting phase instead of firing a weapon. The Eldar player places the large blast marker centered on an enemy model within 18".

When firing a blast weapon, models do not roll to hit, instead just pick one enemy model visible to the firer and place the blast marker with its hole over the base of the target model or its hull if it is a vehicle. You may not place the marker so that the base or hull of any of your own models is even grazed by it.

Using a psychic shooting attack counts as firing a ranged weapon.

Holocaust is a psychic power that may be used in the DH assault phase, at an effective Initiative of 1. If the psychic test is passed, place the Ordnance Template anywhere in contact with the psyker. All models, friend or foe, under the template suffer a S5 hit with armor saves taken as normal.

To me Thunderclap was intended to be like Holocaust in that you don't have to roll for scatter.
However, as you pointed out. It is a shooting attack and therefore follows the shooting guidelines and must scatter.

It seems wierd to me that a Farseer could miss.

paidinfull wrote:To me Thunderclap was intended to be like Holocaust in that you don't have to roll for scatter.
However, as you pointed out. It is a shooting attack and therefore follows the shooting guidelines and must scatter.

What? That is completely wrong. Thunderclap says to place the marker and see what is hit. The Storm says to use it as a Blast Weapon.

Thunderclap does not Scatter.
Storm Does.

End of Discussion.

Thunderclap is a Shooting attack, but you follow its own special rules instead of rolling to hit or using the blast rules.

QFT

Using a psychic shooting attack counts as firing a ranged weapon.

paidinfull wrote:QFT

Using a psychic shooting attack counts as firing a ranged weapon.

Yes, well done.

Now show me where it says Thunderclap is a Blast Weapon. Oh look, it doesn't!

A rune priest may use Thunderclap as a psychic shooting attack. Place the large blast marker so that it is touching the Rune Priest. Any enemy model touched by the marker takes a S3 hit with an AP of 5.

Now show me where it says you don't roll for scatter.

Hey I need a question answering, who will help me!!??
*hint, hint*

paidinfull wrote:

A rune priest may use Thunderclap as a psychic shooting attack. Place the large blast marker so that it is touching the Rune Priest. Any enemy model touched by the marker takes a S3 hit with an AP of 5.

Now show me where it says you don't roll for scatter.

"It doesn't say I don't" is not an argument. Show me where it days I don't have to douse your models in petrol and burn them when I kill them. Show me where it says I don't have to kick your teeth in if I roll a 1.

The fact is, thunderclap is not a Blast weapon. It is a Psychic Shooting attack that has its own special rules. It doesn't scatter, because it does not say it does.
The Storm is a Blast weapon, so it scatters.

Is it a psychic shooting attack? Yes.
Does a psychic shooting attack count "as firing a ranged weapon"? Yes.
Is Thunderclap using the large blast marker? Yes.

Roll for scatter.

QFT

paidinfull wrote:Is it a psychic shooting attack? Yes.
Does a psychic shooting attack count "as firing a ranged weapon"? Yes.
Is Thunderclap using the large blast marker? Yes.

Roll for scatter.

QFT

Errrm... No.

It doesn't Scatter, it doesn't roll to hit, it doesn't have anything to do with the Blast Rules.
Please, Read the rules before posting. You posting incorrect information does nothing to help the readers of YMTC. All it does is cause confusion.

haha
Ridiculous.

So, your argument is that it's "a ranged weapon" that uses the "blast template" but isn't a "blast weapon" and doesn't follow the rules for "blast scatter".


Everything quoted is from BGB, C:SW, C:E, C: DH
QFT
RAW = Scatter.
Notice how both Eldritch Storm and Thunderclap say "place the marker"?

paidinfull wrote:haha
Ridiculous.

So, your argument is that it's "a ranged weapon" that uses the "blast template" but isn't a "blast weapon" and doesn't follow the rules for "blast scatter".


Everything quoted is from BGB, C:SW, C:E, CH
QFT
RAW = Scatter.
Notice how both Eldritch Storm and Thunderclap say "place the marker"?

Protip: No such thing as a Blast Template. Please read my comment on learning the rules and come back when you do.

Storm gives a full Weapon profile to use, which tells you to use the Blast Weapon rules, so it scatters.
Thunderclap just says to place the Large Blast Marker in contact with the Rune Priest, not to use the Blast Weapon rules, so it doesn't.

100% Conjecture

No rule that has been quoted supports your RAW claim.
None.

paidinfull wrote:100% Conjecture

No rule that has been quoted supports your RAW claim.
None.

Now I am just confused.

What rules do you want? The one that says Eldritch Storm is a Blast Weapon or the one that says Thunderclap uses its own special rules to determine who is hit (and so isn't a Blast Weapon)?

Just for the record, none of your quotes prove anything either, mainly because you are wrong.

Using a psychic shooting attack counts as firing a ranged weapon.

Are you using a psychic shooting attack when you cast Thunderclap? Yes.

A rune priest may use Thunderclap as a psychic shooting attack

Does that mean that Thunderclap counts as a Ranged Weapon? Yes.
Does Thunderclap use the Large Blast Marker? Yes.
Is it a Blast Weapon because it's a ranged weapon that uses a blast marker? Yes.

You are 100% incorrect, it is not written the way you are claiming it to be.

QFT

paidinfull wrote:

Using a psychic shooting attack counts as firing a ranged weapon.

Are you using a psychic shooting attack when you cast Thunderclap? Yes.

A rune priest may use Thunderclap as a psychic shooting attack

Does that mean that Thunderclap counts as a Ranged Weapon? Yes.
Does Thunderclap use the Large Blast Marker? Yes.
Is it a Blast Weapon because it's a ranged weapon that uses a blast marker? Yes.

You are 100% incorrect, it is not written the way you are claiming it to be.

QFT

-Sigh- Ok, lets go through this again.

A rune priest may use Thunderclap as a psychic shooting attack. Place the large blast marker so that it is touching the Rune Priest. Any enemy model touched by the marker takes a S3 hit with an AP of 5.

Where does it say it follows the Blast Rules? Where does it say it scatters?

Does that mean that Thunderclap counts as a Weapon? No, it is a Psychic Power which is a Psychic shooting attack, unlike Storm which IS a weapon.
Does Thunderclap use the Large Blast Marker? Yes.
Does it use the Blast Weapon rules? No.

being fair eldar were written for the 4th edtion with only a little knowledge of 5th. To be honest the fact an eldar play didn't need to roll to hit with Eldritch Storm (4th) was one of its biggest advantages.

But thats 4th, in 5th Eldritch Storm is out of date. Eldar players have had some units improve and some weaken considerably in 5th. When the 5th edition codex comes out I'm sure they'll be back on top with 20 odd psychic powers (some of which can be passed without testing)

paidinfull is incorrect. Gwar! is correct.

Where does it say it DOESN'T follow the Blast Rules? Where does it say it DOESN'T scatter?

Are you using a psychic shooting attack when you cast Thunderclap? Yes.
Does that mean that Thunderclap counts as a Ranged Weapon? Yes.
Does Thunderclap use the Large Blast Marker? Yes.
Is it a Blast Weapon because it's a ranged weapon that uses a blast marker? Yes.

One thing: how can a clap scatter??

Eldar Own wrote:One thing: how can a clap scatter??

Ha.
Using RL logic, unfortunately doesn't apply in 40k.

paidinfull, your argument is solely "It doesn't say I don't" which is not a valid argument.

At the risk of being rude, you are wrong, you know you are wrong so please STFU.

... does Thunder Clap use large blast? yes
... does Thunder Clap also use the blast rules? no
... what does Thunder Clap use? its own rules that do not include needing to roll to hit or scatter.
... should Eldritch Storm scatter? unfortunately it should. all though it also use much of the same language, it includes a weapons profile. since the profile and the Eldritch Storm rules can be used in tandom, without any problems, both are used and it scatters.

Gwar! wrote:paidinfull, your argument is solely "It doesn't say I don't" which is not a valid argument.

At the risk of being rude, you are wrong, you know you are wrong so please STFU.

You've can't possibly be this insipid.

I have provided quotes from the BGB and C:SW, as well as C:E & C: DH that outline clearly:
1) Thunderclap is a "ranged shooting attack"
2) has all the characteristics of a "blast weapon" (it uses the blast marker)
3) is thereby a "blast weapon"
4) follows the rules for using a "blast weapon" as outlined in the BGB

...and you think my argument is "It doesn't say I don't"... haha WTF?

You have yet to follow any tenants of YMTC.

I've asked you to provide a single quote that indicates this PSYCHIC SHOOTING ATTACK does not follow the normal rules.

Quote something official that is not some drivel you wrote.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tri wrote:
... does Thunder Clap also use the blast rules? no
... what does Thunder Clap use? its own rules that do not include needing to roll to hit or scatter.
... should Eldritch Storm scatter? unfortunately it should. all though it also use much of the same language, it includes a weapons profile. since the profile and the Eldritch Storm rules can be used in tandom, without any problems, both are used and it scatters.

This is the same issue with GoI.
Looks like a duck.
Walks like a duck.
Sounds like a duck.
And yet you're saying it's not a duck.

"Place the large blast marker so that it is touching the Rune Priest."
This does not preclude the marker from scattering.

paidinfull wrote:You've can't possibly be this insipid.

You have can't possibly be this insipid.

That doesn't even make sense...

but without a weapons profile including the magic word BLAST or LARGE BLAST, the blast rule is never triggered so we never need to follow the rules for blasts.

Lets clear one thing up:

As much as it pains me, eldritch storm has to scatter, it has a weapon profile. Think of it as the farseer holding a giant lighning-cannon. The ball of lighning if fired would scatter because in all cases its a weapon.

With that sorted all is left to debate now is whether thunderclap scatters, which i think it doesnt.