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paidinfull wrote:
2) has all the characteristics of a "blast weapon" (it uses the blast marker)
3) is thereby a "blast weapon"
4) follows the rules for using a "blast weapon" as outlined in the BGB

Your logic is that it has all the characteristics of a "blast weapon" in that it uses the blast marker, and therefore it scatters. Unfortunately, one of the characteristics of a blast weapon is that it scatters... which you are using to prove your point. It's circular logic, and therefore you can't conclude 3.

Additionally, it is possible for something to benefit from, let's say, the ability to move and shoot heavy weapons and yet NOT be Relentless. The fact that it shares certain characteristics does not make it the exact same. For example, Gwar! and I both post on Dakka, but that does not make us the same person. Just because it uses the blast marker does not make it a blast weapon.

This is a debate:

Paidfull vs All the other Dakka members

paidinfull wrote:Where does it say it DOESN'T follow the Blast Rules? Where does it say it DOESN'T scatter?

Are you using a psychic shooting attack when you cast Thunderclap? Yes.
Does that mean that Thunderclap counts as a Ranged Weapon? Yes.
Does Thunderclap use the Large Blast Marker? Yes.
Is it a Blast Weapon because it's a ranged weapon that uses a blast marker? Yes.

Please show me the weapon profile that states "S:X AP: Y Special Rules: Large Blast"

Until you can it is NOT a large blast weapon adn does NOT scatter.

Paidinfull;

You are making an assumption; that is, that if something shares the characteristics of a "Blast weapon" it must therefore BE a "blast weapon". In the real world, this is a perfectly logical assumption, and is usually true.

Unfortunately, this is not a logical argument. It is a rules argument. As a consequence, if you want to get the RAW right, you have to be EXTREMELY literal-minded and nit-picky.

Thunderclap counts as a "Psychic shooting attack". The assumption you're making is that since it is an attack, it must also be a weapon, as a "weapon" is usually defined as something used to do damage, e.g. make an attack. That's not true, because in this case GW have defined "attack" and "weapon" as entirely separate and distinct things, and Thunderclap only fulfills the requirements for "attack", not "weapon". Therefore, it does not use any of the rules for a "weapon", Blast or otherwise, and that includes scatter.

'You may not place the marker so that the base or hull of any of your own models is even grazed by it' -BGB

'Place the large blast marker so that it is touching the Rune-Priest' -SW Codex

A clear case of the LBM being used to 'measure' something rather than being intrinsic to the rules.

BeRzErKeR wrote:Paidinfull;

You are making an assumption; that is, that if something shares the characteristics of a "Blast weapon" it must therefore BE a "blast weapon". In the real world, this is a perfectly logical assumption, and is usually true.

Unfortunately, this is not a logical argument. It is a rules argument. As a consequence, if you want to get the RAW right, you have to be EXTREMELY literal-minded and nit-picky.

Thunderclap counts as a "Psychic shooting attack". The assumption you're making is that since it is an attack, it must also be a weapon, as a "weapon" is usually defined as something used to do damage, e.g. make an attack. That's not true, because in this case GW have defined "attack" and "weapon" as entirely separate and distinct things, and Thunderclap only fulfills the requirements for "attack", not "weapon". Therefore, it does not use any of the rules for a "weapon", Blast or otherwise, and that includes scatter.

Just to reiterate what BeRzErKeR (and others) are saying:


We can logically prove that all 'blast' weapons use the blast marker and scatter (unless specified otherwise) since they follow the rules for blast weapons in the rulebook.

We CANNOT logically prove that anything which uses the blast marker is a blast weapon, because there is no proof that such a statement is true.


The very next Tyranid codex could come out with a new weapon characteristic called 'ACID' that uses a blast marker but doesn't scatter. The point is: all 'blast' weapons use a blast but not all effects that use a blast marker are necessarily 'blast' weapons.


Thunderclap is a psychic shooting attack which uses a blast maker, but it is not labeled as being a blast weapon and therefore does not follow any of the rules for a blast weapon.

Gwar! wrote:Show me where it days I don't have to douse your models in petrol and burn them when I kill them. Show me where it says I don't have to kick your teeth in if I roll a 1.

Somebody needs a hug

BeRzErKeR wrote:You are making an assumption; that is, that if something shares the characteristics of a "Blast weapon" it must therefore BE a "blast weapon". In the real world, this is a perfectly logical assumption, and is usually true.

Even in the real world this is not logical and is rarely true. Saying it must be a blast weapon because it uses the blast template is a fallacy of generalization, and is actually a plague on the real world.

I read the rule for the skill Thunderclap and wonder: If it's supposed to be in base contact with the model using the skill why on earth would it scatter? It says to be in base contact and any enemies in range are damaged. That seems pretty straight forward.

yakface wrote:

BeRzErKeR wrote:Paidinfull;

You are making an assumption; that is, that if something shares the characteristics of a "Blast weapon" it must therefore BE a "blast weapon". In the real world, this is a perfectly logical assumption, and is usually true.

Unfortunately, this is not a logical argument. It is a rules argument. As a consequence, if you want to get the RAW right, you have to be EXTREMELY literal-minded and nit-picky.

Thunderclap counts as a "Psychic shooting attack". The assumption you're making is that since it is an attack, it must also be a weapon, as a "weapon" is usually defined as something used to do damage, e.g. make an attack. That's not true, because in this case GW have defined "attack" and "weapon" as entirely separate and distinct things, and Thunderclap only fulfills the requirements for "attack", not "weapon". Therefore, it does not use any of the rules for a "weapon", Blast or otherwise, and that includes scatter.

Just to reiterate what BeRzErKeR (and others) are saying:


We can logically prove that all 'blast' weapons use the blast marker and scatter (unless specified otherwise) since they follow the rules for blast weapons in the rulebook.

We CANNOT logically prove that anything which uses the blast marker is a blast weapon, because there is no proof that such a statement is true.


The very next Tyranid codex could come out with a new weapon characteristic called 'ACID' that uses a blast marker but doesn't scatter. The point is: all 'blast' weapons use a blast but not all effects that use a blast marker are necessarily 'blast' weapons.


Thunderclap is a psychic shooting attack which uses a blast maker, but it is not labeled as being a blast weapon and therefore does not follow any of the rules for a blast weapon.

My entire argument is predicated on this point which I've quoted from the BGB.

Using a psychic shooting attack counts as firing a ranged weapon.

This is straight from the main rulebook, so I'm making no assumptions regarding the function of the ability.
It's exactly like "counts as troops" inheriting all of the rules for Troops.
How is "counts as firing a ranged weapon" any different?
The ability counts as a ranged weapon, and in this case uses the blast marker. It would only not be subject to the rules for a blast weapon if it specifically stated so.

Using [Thunderclap] counts as firing a ranged weapon
So all of the stipulations apply to it.
Must have LOS
Must have not fired another weapon that shooting phase
Must not have run
Must have a valid target
etc.

I think where I'm in complete disagreement is that everyone seems to keep referencing a "blast weapon" label, which doesn't exist on any of the other Psychic Shooting powers/attacks that use a blast marker. It's not in the C:E, C:SM, C:T
The RAW argument that because it doesn't have a profile is immaterial. As it doesn't state otherwise it "counts as firing a ranged weapon" and no where does it provide RAW that says it doesn't function that way.

As I stated in the post with all of the quotes from C:E, C:SW, BGB, C: DH

To me Thunderclap was intended to be like Holocaust in that you don't have to roll for scatter.
However, as you pointed out. It is a shooting attack and therefore follows the shooting guidelines and must scatter.

If you're playing RAI don't roll for scatter.
If you're playing RAW roll for scatter.

If youre playing RAW don't roll for scatter

It counts as firing a rnaged weapon but does not have a Weapon Profile with the word "Blast" or "large blast" in it, UNLIKE codex Eldar.

Until you can show that it is not fired as a blast weapon, and is therefore exempt.

You failed to address Yafaces point: you cannot logically prove that everythign that uses a blast marker is a blast weapon, whereas the opposite is true. You are *assuming* the former despite having no rules basis to do so.

nosferatu1001 wrote:You failed to address Yakfaces point

Of course he failed to, because he can't.

nosferatu1001 wrote:You failed to address Yafaces point: you cannot logically prove that everythign that uses a blast marker is a blast weapon, whereas the opposite is true. You are *assuming* the former despite having no rules basis to do so.

No actually I did address it.
His statement was that it was "not labeled" as a blast weapon. The psychic abilities that use the blast marker aren't "labeled" blast weapons. Now the assumption that is being made is that because there is a "profile" that means that it is bound to the rules for "firing a ranged weapon" but as I've quoted the fact that it is labeled in the codex as a "psychic shooting attack" binds it to the rules for "firing a ranged weapon" per the BGB.

Please explain how "counts as firing a ranged weapon" does not make the ability a ranged weapon.
You can't, and I have made no assumptions.

When a player uses thunderclap, THEY COUNT AS FIRING A RANGED WEAPON.
By RAW unless a player is provided with rules in their codex that over ride the BGB, in this case a declaration that it does not roll for scatter, you follow the BGB.

You wouldn't claim you could use it on a unit that you couldn't legally target would you? Outside of LOS for example.
Or to target your own models...

paidinfull wrote: The psychic abilities that use the blast marker aren't "labeled" blast weapons.

Yes they are. Try reading the codexes for once. Look up the Storm. It is a Blast Weapon.

Now look up Thunderclap. Oh look, it isn't a blast weapon!

Gwar! wrote:Yes they are. Try reading the codexes for once. Look up the Storm. It is a Blast Weapon.

Now look up Thunderclap. Oh look, it isn't a blast weapon!

Quote it.

paidinfull wrote:

Gwar! wrote:Yes they are. Try reading the codexes for once. Look up the Storm. It is a Blast Weapon.

Now look up Thunderclap. Oh look, it isn't a blast weapon!

Quote it.

Errrm... Quote what? The lack of rules saying it is a Blast Weapon? Or the profile for Storm which I have already quoted that show it is a blast weapon?

Protip: It has to say it is a blast weapon. "It doesn't say it isn't a blast weapon" is not an argument.

Quote where it says that Eldritch Storm is a blast weapon.

Quote it.

What, apart from the fact that Eldritch Storm has a weapn profile with the phrase "large blast" in the special rules?

That, acording to the shooting rules, makes it a Blast Weapon.

Stating you are "using" the blast marker does not make you a blast weapon.

See the difference now?

You also did NOT address Yafaces point: you CANNOT PROVE that everything that uses the Blast Marker is a Blast Weapon - it is impossible for you to do so. Therefore making you argument invalid.

paidinfull wrote:Quote where it says that Eldritch Storm is a blast weapon.

Quote it.

How about the part where it gives its profile?

p. 27 does not say that having a profile makes it a weapon.
nor does it say that if a weapon doesn't have a profile it's not a weapon.

All it says is:
Every weapon has a profile that consists of several elements, for example.

It then lists what the characteristics of a weapon

Maximum Range : Base Contact with the Rune Priest
Strength : 3
Armour Piercing : 5
Type : Large Blast

"Using a psychic shooting attack counts as firing a ranged weapon."

So now your argument must be... Thunderclap doesn't count as a weapon?

To continue... having the profile doesn't matter, even in the case of Eldritch Storm, don't you see?
It has...
Maximum Range : 18"
Strength : 3
AP : -
Type : Large Blast, Pinning

and would be bound by the rules for scatter because it "counts as firing a ranged weapon"
You're making assumptions that because a profile isn't listed it's not a weapon... but I've quoted the rule to you... some how you keep ignoring it.

paidinfull wrote:
Maximum Range : Base Contact with the Rune Priest
Strength : 3
Armour Piercing : 5
Type : Large Blast

Nowhere does it state this.

Please, try reading the codex.

"Place the large blast template so that it is touching the rune priest. Any model touched by the marker takes a STR3 hit at AP5."


The template has to be touching the rune priest.

edit:

Also interestingly enough, it doesn't say that the template edge has to be the only part touching, so you could in theory place the marker dead center on yourself and hit all the enemies surrounding you.

Scalp wrote:Also interestingly enough, it doesn't say that the template edge has to be the only part touching, so you could in theory place the marker dead center on yourself and hit all the enemies surrounding you.

Yup, it is actually quite a handy Power for a Drop Podding Rune priest I have to say.

I think Eldar Own had a point with his literal interpretation.

When an intended ruling is so blatant, I for one would not even consider forcing my opponent to scatter a clap.

The fact that the rules seem to back this up makes the answer pretty conclusive.

paidinfull wrote:p. 27 does not say that having a profile makes it a weapon.
nor does it say that if a weapon doesn't have a profile it's not a weapon.

All it says is:
"Every weapon has a profile that consists of several elements, for example."

Wow, reading comphrension FTW!

SO if EVERY weapon has a profile that consists of the following elements....what does that make something that doesn't have a profile? EVEWRY weapon has a profile, and thunderclap doesn't.....hmm, I wonder? :rolleyes:

The eldar codex calls it: S:X AP:Y Special Rules: Large Blast, thus making it a weapon that uses the scatter rules. Please show where this weapon profile exists for Thunderclap - oh wait, it doesn't. Which is what you are ignoring.

It does not have a listed range either, you have presupposed that by adding words in (it also does nto work, as you can centre the blast marker or put it on the edge, therefore it does not have a fixed range - but I assume you will ignore this as well) which is also called "making stuff up"

.... any one up for locking this thread? Its not like we're convincing PaidInFull .... ¬_¬

Sounds good for me.

If even Yakface, Gwar, youself et al can't convince someone that what they are saying has no rules backing, it's either due to an immense failure on our all collective parts at how we are explaining things, or the person doesn't want to listen.

A blast weapon is a weapon, like anyother weapon, whose profile ends in blast, heavy 1 (or something other than heavy 1) this is how you identify it. So the definition of a blast weapon is "a weapon that has blast in its profile." A blast weapon scatters. Thunderclap doesnt have a profile that says blast, it says use blast but it isnt in a profile, meaning its not a blast weapon therfore it doesnt scatter.

Also since Thunderclap has no weapon profile, it is a special attack meaning that it can make up its own rules on targeting, removing models etc. in this case it means thatthe large blast marker is used to work out the amout of models affected. Think a bout it if thunderclap said "this effects all models within 2.5" (the radius of a large blast marker) you would not presume it was a blast weapon as it can make up its own rules (special attack) and you wouldnt presume its scattered. Its just because it uses the blast marker that you can get confused.

It would seem this thread has, for the moment,served it's purpose.

Locking.. 3..2....1...