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Hi, fellow dakkaites!

A friend of mine plays tyranids and even though there wil be a new codex soon, I really want him to stand a chance in missions based on object securing. The problems I see is his inability to keep his scoring squads intact as well as his synapse creatures while there is the urgent need to put pressure on the enemy. How can this be achieved with the present codex? He constantly has to face the IG and Eldar and looses quite frequently, which doesn't help his motivation obviously.

If you could tell me some trusty tactics or give general advice, that would be great. I really don't want to lose one of the best (fluffwise) opponents, just because he keeps losing...

P.S.: If you need any information, please ask for it. I'll happily give as possible

If you couls give us rough approximations of the Tyranid, Eldar, and Imperial Guard lists (especially the Tyranid ones) that would be extremely helpful.

In short, the only way for Tyranids to hold an objective is to recycle Without Number gaunts onto it repeatedly. Synapse can be a big issue, as most synapse creatures are big targets. A Tyrant with Guard is hard to kill, and with a Flyrant and a couple of Caarnifexes to draw fire, might be able to last quite a while.

In general our group (no fixed dates to play due to work a.s.o.) our eldar player is green as grass (just started to play) and is still trying the whole codex, but he already likes the farseer (hq, not sure of the english name) and his buddies. Two squads of guardians with impulse lasers (term?) and warwalkers found his sympathy, too. So not really fixed list availlable.
The Tyranid mostly bases his list around one Tyrant with two stunt doubles, one or two fexes all equipped with large templates (once again I'm at a loss referring the correct terms ), some hormagaunts/ spinefists and roughly 20 gene stealers, sprinkled with two squads à 4 warriors with small blasts. Basically he goes for an all out storm attack, has no clue of rules and hardly knows his own codex... So nearly any tip might help here.
The guards come with one or two CHQs, two platoons, two mechanized vets, two squads of heavies (lascas) and some sentinels for the leisure of flanking/ annoyance.
Mind you, this is just a rough summary as lists ( with the felt exception of the bugs) still keep changing to try new stuff from time to time. We are far from tournament level, so it's mostly casual gaming.
Okay, I hope this helps everyone to get an idea of the armies in play. Oh, and don't hesitate to correct any mistakes! I may be reading in this forum for a long time, but I'm always happy to learn.

First thing that nid player needs to do is learning. The general rules and his Codex. Without knowing what's possible he'll barely stand a chance.

When trying to capture an objective with gaunts without WON he'll need a synapse nearby ideally Warriors with Deathspitters due to range (deathspitters=small blast, ger Säurespucker). Another option are genestealers for not being dependent on synapse creatures
To keep the enemy from shooting his objective holder he'll have to field alternative targets, several carnifex come to mind (don't forget about the elite option with tl devourer (ger Neuralfresser) and improved senses) to draw fire, especially HS ones with 2+ save and T7 shrug off anything but LC+ or plasma weaponry.
Finally: Don't play hormagaunts. They suck. Either they win combat first round and get cut down in enemy's shooting phase or they don't win first turn and get beat up by anything harder then imperial guardsmen in ongoing assault phases. And they're the hell of a pointsink.

To what your friend uses seems quite solid to me (except the hormagaunts, mind you) perhaps he just messes up with target priority, focussing fire and guessing distances. So he'd need some more playing routine. (friend of mine started playing, lost two games and never touched his army again except for modelling and painting... freak... )

Finally I'll try to help you out on english names:
Runenprophet=farseer
Runenleser=warlock
Impulslaser=scatterlaser
Tyrantenwache=tyrant guard
Stachelwürger=Barbed Strangler

Hope this helps a little and welcome on Dakka!

Alright, Im a long time nid player so I will see what I can give yah to tell him.
Keep in mind, yes there is a new dex about to release, so its hard to say if these tactics will still be viable when that happens.

Tyrant plus guard, excellent fire base and as well excellent in close combat. Almost all monstrous creatures should be equipped with implant attack when possible, as in this way they will really deter characters from attacking them. As well, a walking tyrant should almost always be equipped with dual devourers and toxin sacs, as 12 strength 5, re-rolls hits and wounds is absolutely disgusting.

It seems he is using a mix list with some horde and some monstrous creatures. This is fine, and can work quite well when handled appropriatly. Almost always use gaunts to screen your monstrous creatures, with warriors behind the gaunts because the gaunts grant the warriors a cover save, who in turn grant the monstrous creatures a cover save as well. Walking cover wall can overwhelm an opponent very quickly.

Now as for objective games, he will have to decide on two routes:
1: Gaunts with nearby synapse

2: Genestealers who dont need synapse and have 10LD.

Those really are the only 2 options. If he decides he wants to use gaunts, then a relatively cheap synapse battery is a zoanthrope, just have a zoanthrope with synapse and warp blast within 12" and blast away at anything incoming!

Feel free to ask any other questions!

I already posted my tyranid list and how I use it in another thread, so out of laziness I'll just copy and paste it here. It may give you and your friend some good ideas.

Here is my list and how I play it:

Nids, 1500 points.

HQ

172- Hive tyrant: enhanced senses, extended carapace, flesh hooks, implant attack, toxin sacs, two twin-linked devourers, shadow in the warp.

92- Two tyrant guard: flesh hooks, one w/ lash whip, one w/ scything talons.

162- Hive tyrant: enhanced senses, extended carapace, flesh hooks, implant attack, toxin sacs, two twin-linked devourers

92- Two tyrant guard: flesh hooks, one w/ lash whip, one w/ scything talons.

Troops

240- 12 genestealers: extended carapace.

64- 8 termagaunts: spinefists, without number.

384- 32 hormagaunts: toxin sacs.

Heavy

148- Carnifex: enhanced senses, barbed strangler, venom cannon.

148- Carnifex: enhanced senses, barbed strangler, venom cannon.


So that's the list, as far as play style I should break this down a bit.

Set up

Typically, I set this list up in ranks. In front are the eight without number gaunts. Behind them are the two tyrants with their guard, and behind them are the hormagaunts. Behind the hormagaunts are the stealers. The carnifexen will take up a flank or anywhere that will give them a good line of sight.

The gaunts actually grant the tyrant and his guards a cover save because the guards are not monstrous creatures and they comprise at least 50% of the squad. The tyrants and their guard easily grant the hormagaunts a cover save, and the stealers most likely can't even be seen. So right off the bat your entire army has 4+ cover except eight models that are a throw away unit anyway and will come back on the board when killed.

The tyrants

The way the tyrant and tyrant guards are set up each model is armed differently allowing me to take full advantage of wound allocation. The tyrants have a 2+ save and happily soak up as much small arms fire and AP 3 shots as possible. Since the tyrants can never be picked out from the guard (even in close combat) leaving two wounds on them is relatively safe. However, killing both is the only way to really effectively take down this army, so people will be gunning for them.

The tyrants fire 12 strength 5 shots at 18 inch range and BS 4 that reroll both hits and wounds. If you're surprised by this, look up devourers and living ammunition. It's legal and a standard nid tactic. (I mention this because my opponents always seem surprised.) It's great for softening up infantry, or even wiping out entire squads depending on the situation. One round of shooting from one tyrant should kill 3-4 marines. If they both focus on one squad, they can decimate it.

Shadow in the warp, in my opinion, is one of the best defenses against psychic powers in the game and has shut down more than one dual lash list.

These squads are also pretty good in CC. All around, the strongest units in the army. Oh, and did I mention that one tyrant and his guard are only worth one kill point because the tyrant isn't a character?

Without number gaunts

These don't do much except die, but that's good enough. They offer a four up save to my tyrants on the first turn and after that they can come back on the board and claim an objective. Granted, they need to be in synapse range but I can always hang a tyrant back if this is absolutely essential or start running one backwards towards the end of the game. Six inches of movement, plus a D6 run, plus a 12" synapse range allows a little leeway for coming back mid-game. It's also good to note that the turn that without number gaunts come back on the board they don't have to test for lurking and will be able to hold an objective normally.

Hormagaunts

Probably the most controversial unit in this army. It costs me 384 points and lots of people argue that they're not worth it. Obviously, I disagree. This allows for a large unit with a lot of wounds for grabbing objectives. It's actually also my number one tank busting unit. With fleet and a 12" charge they can be on my opponent's tanks first turn striking the rear armor. (Only on spearhead when deployed at a kitty-corner or if my opponent went first and made the mistake of moving forward, but you'd be surprised. Second turn is fine anyway.) Granted, they can only glance, but with enough attacks that's all you need to do. Especially if I'm assaulting a vindicator or a russ and all I really care about is blowing off that big gun.

As for people who think they can't hold their own in combat: 32 gaunts charge ten space marines. The gaunts get 96 attacks. 48 hit, 24 wound, and 8 marines fail saves and die. The marines strike back (lets assume they have a power fist, as most do) five hit (we'll give them the benefit of the doubt), three wound, and three gaunts die. The power fist strikes (if it's still around to do so) and kills another one. You get similar results against orks, eldar, etc. Granted, this is assuming you get the charge in and have range with all your gaunts, which is unlikely. But you will almost always be the one getting the charge off if you play it right with fleet and a 12 inch charge, the only question is how many you get there. Most people also forget a key role of this squad: to tie up the enemy. It's large enough to tie up multiple units until it can be reinforced with genestealers and hive tyrants.

And with two tyrants standing in front of the gaunts the first turn or two you'll not only find that your gaunts have 4+ cover, but most opponents will shoot at the tyrants over the gaunts. Keeping the tyrants in front also helps to keep the gaunts jumping out of synapse range. On later turns, the hormagaunts may jump out in front of the tyrants to help provide them cover and, of course, charge. As you may have seen, the key way to kill this army is take down both tyrants but, when played right, that is very difficult.

Genestealers

Fairly simple unit. Run them in the back where they can't be seen, or at least always have cover, and then charge in to reinforce the gaunts. Always good for taking out marines or anything that rending needs to handle. Also a good objective holding unit as they don't need synapse.

Carnifexen

It amuses me to pluralize carnifex like oxen. Anyway, again, fairly simple unit. Walk forward and shoot. With two strength ten venom canon shots and a strength eight barbed strangler they're your best ranged anti armor. Since the venom canon can only glance, they're really best for keeping big tanks from shooting until they can be assaulted. However, don't underestimate their transport popping/immobilizing ability, and remember that venom canons can penetrate open topped vehicles. Also good for anything you think a strength eight pie plate might do some good. Biker nobs come to mind. Speaking of biker nobs, if I knew I was facing them (or even if I was playing in a really competitive tournament) I would drop two stealers and give all the tyrant guard in the army implant attack.


Alright, that's the list. It works, and it works well. At least for me. I don't like nidzilla. With the lack of scoring units it feels like you're always fighting for the tie unless you're playing kill points. I don't want to tie, I want to win. I think that (ironically) the best lists will actually have a bit of everything. Unusual for 40k, I know.

I also think five psychic screams and a bunch of barbed stranglers can be fairly effective, or at least a lot of fun.

Well I was going to type something long and drawn out but I can see some other posters have taken care of a lot of the issues already. I would listen to the advice above and see how he fares.

1. Zoanthropes for synapse for WoN gaunts
2. Dakka tyrant with guard
3. Boom fexes or sniperfexes (large blast or large blast with another S10 2 shot gun)

Good luck

@ Cpt. Icanus: Thanks for the translations. Far easier to describe a problem once the terms.

1. Good work, guys!
2. Sad thing about Nidman (as I may abbreviate him here) is the fact, I and several people told him already to damn read (if not learning) at least his own codex. And guess what happened? Codex stays 99% at my flat and generally he just cranks out the same list every time we play, sometimes adding insult to injury when mentioning: "Whoa, this time I sure will heat things up!" *facepalm*
Not only do we play since years or more, no! He freely admitted to not understand the Guard 'Dex (which I find hard to believe, it got even more easy...) followed by the statement he didn't do so with his own. There were even times he blantantly claimed to give up on playing as he lost constantly as his army was so weak compared to the old guards (!). GNAH!!! Our new Eldar already got the rules better than he ever did till now, which made me let him run straight in to the wall of spears for still not getting at least the basic rules or stats of anything! I shouldn't have to do a "file in the rookie"- game to a person playing for years, now should I?!
3. Sorry, just had to let it all out...
4. Another thanks to whocares: will translate this for him and promptly send it via e-mail. Don't have any hopes to see him around here (or anywhere he could find tips).
5. As for any tips: just put them here. As there ist still time to play till january (rumored to see the new codex then), I'd like to finally have a real competition with the bugs.
6. I'll see, if I can find the list of his and post it here, if you don't mind.

Okay, good night everyone and stay clean

whocares, you dont run feeder tendrils in your stealers? Its easily one of, if not, the best upgrade in the codex.

Also I find that a dakka tyrant ends up doing nothing few turns depending on the set up due to range. Dont underestimate the VC/BS Tyrant. While you wont be popping tanks with your BS, the VC is great at popping wave serpents who get hit at STR8 already. You get 3 attacks and a higher BS as well.

A tyrant with a VC and BS is a great dual roled HQ. He can clean up troops and snipe HQs and is great at messing up transports.

thekerrick wrote:whocares, you dont run feeder tendrils in your stealers? Its easily one of, if not, the best upgrade in the codex.

Also I find that a dakka tyrant ends up doing nothing few turns depending on the set up due to range. Dont underestimate the VC/BS Tyrant. While you wont be popping tanks with your BS, the VC is great at popping wave serpents who get hit at STR8 already. You get 3 attacks and a higher BS as well.

A tyrant with a VC and BS is a great dual roled HQ. He can clean up troops and snipe HQs and is great at messing up transports.

I could drop a stealer and give them feeder tendrils, but I wouldn't do that. What I SHOULD do is drop a stealer and give them flesh hooks. While feeder tendrils are very, very good, I find flesh hooks to be absolutely essential. Nothing like charging your initiative 6 stealers into some gravel and having the enemy strike first and kill half of them. For those unfamiliar with the nid codex, you can't arm a genestealer with both feeder tendrils and flesh hooks. I can see how this is a bit of a toss up, but I know where my preferences lie. So, now if you're wondering why I don't even use flesh hooks, I didn't model them that way so I'm living with it.

As for the tyrant, I totally disagree. The dakka tyrant is very good and since the average set up puts a distance of 24" between you and your opponent, you will just about always be shooting from second turn on. Often times you'll get shots off first turn if deployed kitty corner on a spearhead or if your opponent goes first and moves forwards. And, if you can't, you run first turn and then shoot the rest of the game.

The problem with the venom cannon tyrant isn't that it's strength 8, it's that it can only glance vehicles that are not open topped. On the glancing table you have a 2/3 chance of doing no permanent damage to a vehicle. So the tyrant gets 3 shots at a wave serpent, hits twice, glances once, and then has a 1/3 chance of either destroying a weapon or immobilizing it. (not popping it) Not the greatest of odds. Add to that the role of glancing the hell out of things is easily handled by the sniper fexes, the venom cannon/BS tyrant becomes redundant. The higher ballistic skill is nice and it's not a bad set up, there are just better ones.

I think Whocares hit the nail on the head about VC's on tyrants. The point is that dakkatyrants are so much better than snipertyrants.

Also take into account that if you do load him out with a BS and VC each time he fires chances are 1 of the guns is wasting it's shots.

@ whocares:

I am afraid you cannot split the wounds. All tyrant guard must be armed the same. If you look at the wording of the codex, tyrant guard wording is vastly different from the Warriors entry, where it clearly states "Each Warrior within that brood must then also choose two weapon-symbiotes at the cost listed, and no more, but these may differ within the brood".

Whereas for Tyrant guard it says "The Tyrant Guard form a retinue with the Hive Tyrant..... Tyrant guard have Rending Claws and Scything Talons, and may be equipped with Flesh hooks at +x points per model and/or implant attacks at +x points per model. Tyrant Guard may replace their Scything Talons with Lash Whips at no extra cost."


Note how it doesn't say "Each Tyrant Guard" like it does in the Warrior entry but rather "Tyrant Guard" referring to the whole unit. The preceeding sentence was using "the tyrant guard" as a reference to the whole unit, and the following sentence continues on to describe the very same unit in general terms. Specifically regarding the ability to buy flesh hooks for 1 model and not another - notice how the "+x points per model" phrasing in most codexes means the whole unit need to take those upgrades. In contrast the Warrior entry goes on to specify that weapon symbiotes (but not biomorphs) can differ within the brood. This language is totally absent in the Tyrant Guard entry. This issue has also been extensively discussed in You Make the Call.

saryrn wrote:@ whocares:

I am afraid you cannot split the wounds. All tyrant guard must be armed the same. If you look at the wording of the codex, tyrant guard wording is vastly different from the Warriors entry, where it clearly states "Each Warrior within that brood must then also choose two weapon-symbiotes at the cost listed, and no more, but these may differ within the brood".

Whereas for Tyrant guard it says "The Tyrant Guard form a retinue with the Hive Tyrant..... Tyrant guard have Rending Claws and Scything Talons, and may be equipped with Flesh hooks at +x points per model and/or implant attacks at +x points per model. Tyrant Guard may replace their Scything Talons with Lash Whips at no extra cost."


Note how it doesn't say "Each Tyrant Guard" like it does in the Warrior entry but rather "Tyrant Guard" referring to the whole unit. The preceeding sentence was using "the tyrant guard" as a reference to the whole unit, and the following sentence continues on to describe the very same unit in general terms. Specifically regarding the ability to buy flesh hooks for 1 model and not another - notice how the "+x points per model" phrasing in most codexes means the whole unit need to take those upgrades. In contrast the Warrior entry goes on to specify that weapon symbiotes (but not biomorphs) can differ within the brood. This language is totally absent in the Tyrant Guard entry. This issue has also been extensively discussed in You Make the Call.

I once started a thread asking that very question in You Make Da Call, and the only answer I got was, "Play it how you like, the wording is ambiguous." Just because warriors explicitly state that they may vary weapon symbiotes does not mean that tyrant guard can not. It just means that warriors can. It is not clear whether "tyrant guard" refers to the entire brood, or any single model of tyrant guard. Since the wording is clearly ambiguous (and I got no answer in you make da call) I went with the interpretation that they acted like most every other thing in 40k, in that their weapons upgrades may vary (one marine may have a melta gun, while another may have a bolter) however other upgrades may not. (If one marine has frag grenades, then they all do. keep in mind, when this codex was written you had to buy frag grenades.) The example about warriors, in my mind, backs up the idea that weapons upgrades may vary, however biomorphs may not. However, as I pointed out earlier, how one model works really has no bearing on another model. Anyway, I don't suppose this is the proper place for this discussion. Feel free to link me to those previous threads on you make da call, or just make another. I would like to see them.

Here are the threads I have started on it:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/235517.page

(Turns out I was wrong about the kill points in that one, however I at least started with the right idea.)

And a thread I started here asking "if I had to arm my tyrant guard the same which armament would be better?" that just degenerated into people telling me that they could be armed differently:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/235528.page

whocares wrote:The problem with the venom cannon tyrant isn't that it's strength 8, it's that it can only glance vehicles that are not open topped. On the glancing table you have a 2/3 chance of doing no permanent damage to a vehicle.

If I can just get a word in before this turns into a rules argument, stunning a vehicle is still a good result. Every turn those big guns aren't blowing huge holes in your army is a blessing. It's not as good as destroying the weapon (or if they have extra armour), but in some cases, for example an IG table edge tank line, it's better than immobilisation. Keeps them quiet until your bignidz can roll up and eat the squishy bits inside.

Soup and a roll wrote:

whocares wrote:The problem with the venom cannon tyrant isn't that it's strength 8, it's that it can only glance vehicles that are not open topped. On the glancing table you have a 2/3 chance of doing no permanent damage to a vehicle.

If I can just get a word in before this turns into a rules argument, stunning a vehicle is still a good result. Every turn those big guns aren't blowing huge holes in your army is a blessing. It's not as good as destroying the weapon (or if they have extra armour), but in some cases, for example an IG table edge tank line, it's better than immobilisation. Keeps them quiet until your bignidz can roll up and eat the squishy bits inside.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for glancing the hell out of my opponent's tanks. In fact, it is an essential element to any tyranid army. Glance their big tanks until you can assault them. I think I could have explained myself a little better. Ok, here it goes again: the problem with the venom canon on the tyrant is a combination of the fact that it's strength 8 and that it only glances. There, I think that sounds a little better. Let's take that IG tank line, for example. What tank are they probably using? The Leman Russ. The Leman Russ is armor 14 on front. A strength 8 VC shot needs a 6 to glance. What tank in a space marine army do you really want to keep from shooting, if only for a turn? The vindicator. The vindicator is front armor 13, so you need a 5 to glance. Now, strength 8 is spectacular against transports...but with only being able to glance them, you can't get to the creamy filling.

Compare this to a sniperfex which has a strength 10 VC, much more capable of glancing those pesky high armor values. It also has a strength 8 that can penetrate to boot, and is more likely to bust open transports. When shot in combination, you have a very high likely hood of severely messing up a tank. Also, lukus brought up a very good point: if armed with a VC and BS, a hive tyrant is almost always essentially wasting one of its shots. Strength 4 pie plates aren't great against armor.

Now, again, the VC/BS hive tyrant is alright. If those guard tanks happen to all be basilisks, and the space marine tanks are all whirlwinds then he can do some damage. He also has a pie plate to use against infantry, making him relatively versatile. The carnifex just does the same job, only a little better. Add to that the fact that you can make a hive tyrant a dakka tyrant dishing out 12 strength five shots with rerolls all to hell, and it strikes me as a bit of a waste. It's like hiring a neuro surgeon to drive a garbage truck. Yes, it is a job that absolutely must be done. Yes, he can do it adequately. But that man has better things to do.

Good points well made whocares. For the purposes of this topic (good tyranid tactics) you can't really go wrong with a dakka tyrant.

I do, however, think it is important not to pigeon hole a beast as versatile as a HT. Keeping an opponent out of their comfort zone by using less common builds can be useful. VC/BS tyrants are good for sniping expensive T4 models like crisis suits and characters. Give the tyrant wings for side armour targeting or give them warp blast to scare MEQs and tanks. These builds might not be quite as effective as a 12-shot monstrosity but still have their role to play.

Broodlord with outflanking retinue is scary stuff. Will make your friends IG opponents scared of board edges.
Warriors with Deathspitters can put out a surprising number of wounds onto units... at least it suprised my CSM
Lictors are really really scary, nasty, and very valuable in a list- Fun too!

I don't play 'Nids, only against them, so thats all i've got I'm afraid

Lictors are less fun when they get beat down by a squad of guardsmen. They also tend to hurt themselves when jumping out from behind their trees/bushes etc. They are great fluff wise, for conversions and also if you can get the feeder tendrils near a big brood. They are otherwise horrible.

I love deathspitters! Four spitters and a strangler puts out a silly amount of plates.

I also love ripper swarms even though they are insta-killed by assault cannons and decimated by flamers. I stuck a bunch of biomorphs to bases so they look like the ancient ripper swarms.

Not to mention each lictor gives up a kill point. Ack.

Haven't used Tyranids hardly at all in 5th so I will keep this down to a brief list of things I wouldn't go without and then tough choices a 'Nid player has to make.

Things I wouldn't go without:
-Shadow in the Warp
-Tyrant with 2xTL Devourers, implant attack, and 2 Guards
-2 Dakkafexes
-2 Sniperfexes (+1 BS, VC and BS)
-At least 1 Godfex (expensive all-CC Carnifex)
-1 Lictor for Reserves and I just like the concept
-Something solid to contribute feeder tendrils

Tough choices a 'Nid player has to make:
-Nidzilla or not? Seems like some people have had success with taking close to max MC, but finding use for the small bugs as screens and objective-grabbers/contesters.
-Screening big bugs with small ones. Risk is being dual-charged and taking BIG loses in no-retreat saves.
-Using Warriors. I suggest people at least try them out and see if it works with their army's synergy.

Hope this is helpful. I can see Tyranids having big problems with a lot of armies out there in 5th Edition land.

- Blackbone

RustyKnight wrote:In short, the only way for Tyranids to hold an objective is to recycle Without Number gaunts onto it repeatedly.

QFT

I had tons of problems holding till Without Number gaunts....

well, you actually recycle them through it cause you'll most likely always have another group coming to do the holding.

and the front most group will be used to tie up something or be an extra target(for threatening to tie up a group or take another objective)

What is the general opinion towards warriors? I would use them as second rank fire support using deathspitters, so they don't have to be too close while still giving synapse bubbles. Is there a way to get them in to cc without messing a list?
Keep the discussion going

P.S.: I hate my sloooww Net

Deathspitters are probably the most cost effective build for them, though for fun you can put TL devourers on them. More expensive and shorter ranged but with all the re-rolls you are pretty much garuanteed to do major damage against any infantry unit. They can also hurt more expensive elite units/models such as daemon princes, avatars etc. They may only be S4 (max) but they have a whopping 4 shots per model.

Close combat builds currently are extremely hard to use. The whole point is that they should get there fast, but with wings being so expensive you basically end up with an overcosted fast attack choice. That said I did use them a couple of times in a large 2k all flying or leaping army and it was fun...just don't expect to win much with them though.

Lukus83 wrote:Deathspitters are probably the most cost effective build for them, though for fun you can put TL devourers on them. More expensive and shorter ranged but with all the re-rolls you are pretty much garuanteed to do major damage against any infantry unit. They can also hurt more expensive elite units/models such as daemon princes, avatars etc. They may only be S4 (max) but they have a whopping 4 shots per model.

Close combat builds currently are extremely hard to use. The whole point is that they should get there fast, but with wings being so expensive you basically end up with an overcosted fast attack choice. That said I did use them a couple of times in a large 2k all flying or leaping army and it was fun...just don't expect to win much with them though.

Listen to this man.

I hope in the next codex they have a warrior variant with scything talons and without synapse that can be taken as a troops choice. The scything talons just look too cool on them, and then I could make my starship troopers army.