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My friend just started playing DE and was just telling me about a game with another friend. He mentioned the toughness 5 on the squad and alarm bells went off. He also isn't aware of the errata with the plus 1 strength. Hes basically arguing a RAW with the stat line. So is it generally accepted that the jetbike stats are included in the statline? or is there something more conrcete that I haven't found?

Milkstorm wrote:My friend just started playing DE and was just telling me about a game with another friend. He mentioned the toughness 5 on the squad and alarm bells went off. He also isn't aware of the errata with the plus 1 strength. Hes basically arguing a RAW with the stat line. So is it generally accepted that the jetbike stats are included in the statline? or is there something more conrcete that I haven't found?

Well, actually, nowhere does it say the Reavers are the Unit Type jetbike
That aside, They are Toughness 4, but count as Toughness 3 for instant death, as per the Jetbike rules.

Also the +1S is only for Character's with the Reaver Jetbike Wargear, not the unit.

Gwar! wrote:

Milkstorm wrote:My friend just started playing DE and was just telling me about a game with another friend. He mentioned the toughness 5 on the squad and alarm bells went off. He also isn't aware of the errata with the plus 1 strength. Hes basically arguing a RAW with the stat line. So is it generally accepted that the jetbike stats are included in the statline? or is there something more conrcete that I haven't found?

Well, actually, nowhere does it say the Reavers are the Unit Type jetbike

How 'bout the errata?

Ridcully wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

Milkstorm wrote:My friend just started playing DE and was just telling me about a game with another friend. He mentioned the toughness 5 on the squad and alarm bells went off. He also isn't aware of the errata with the plus 1 strength. Hes basically arguing a RAW with the stat line. So is it generally accepted that the jetbike stats are included in the statline? or is there something more conrcete that I haven't found?

Well, actually, nowhere does it say the Reavers are the Unit Type jetbike

How 'bout the errata?

Nope. The Errata makes Characters with the Reaver jetbike Wargear the Unit Type Jetbike, but it doesn't mention the squad at all. Only bits from the errata about the bikes are:

Page 14, Reaver Jetbike. The entire entry should be replaced with the following: ‘A Dark Eldar character on a Reaver Jetbike changes its unit type from Infantry to Jetbike, with all of the benefits of an Eldar Jetbike described in the rulebook. The model gains +1 Toughness as normal, but also +1 Strength due to the combat blades fixed to the bike. The bike comes with an in-built splinter rifle, which does not count towards the character’s weapons allowance. Characters mounted on Jetbikes cannot be given Webway Portals or Crucible of Malediction.’

While the Reaver Jetbike entry says to use the special rules for the Jetbike, the Jetbikes special rules apply only to Characters!

What are characters?

Ridcully wrote:What are characters?

Exactly!

Obviously some special term that deserves capitalization

Ridcully wrote:Obviously some special term that deserves capitalization

characters (no capitalization) is the term used to describe the collective group of Independent characters and Upgrade characters, this can be seen in the BRB on pages 47, 48, 49, 91, and perhaps more that I could not think of.

The word "characters" in the errata is perfectly fine.

That said, the Errata does technically only allow characters to become Jetbike type units.

This is an issue with the codex being so old (GIVE US THE NEW ONE ALREADY!!!!) and you will find that no units ever actually specify their unit type, and since the BRB doesn't ever say that infantry is the default if nothing else is specified (I don't think) you can't really use Dark Eldar without comprimising a bit.

I have to disagree with defining "characters" as any type of special or independent character.

The Dark Eldar codex repeatedly refers to dark eldar models as characters. For example, on page 7 of the Dark Eldar Codex refers to an Incubi master as a character. There are many other instances throughout the codex of non independent characters being referred to as characters.

Such, where the DE errata (FAQ) says that "A dark eldar character on a reaver jetbike" at worst talking about succubi or any upgrade "character" or more likely talking about any model mounted on a reaver jetbike.

Dashofpepper wrote:I have to disagree with defining "characters" as any type of special or independent character.

Nobody was doing that.

Drunkspleen mentioned the rulebook definition of characters. It doesn't apply only to independant and special characters. But it doesn't apply at all to models who aren't either Upgrade characters or Independant characters.

The Dark Eldar codex repeatedly refers to dark eldar models as characters.

An Incubi Master is an upgrade character. So that reference is correct.

Such, where the DE errata (FAQ) says that "A dark eldar character on a reaver jetbike" at worst talking about succubi or any upgrade "character" or more likely talking about any model mounted on a reaver jetbike.

It certainly seems like it should apply to all models on a reaver. But all models are not characters.

So thus far we know that upgrade characters and independent characters fall into the "communal" ruling here for the +stats.

My next question would be this: What precedent is there across 40k for ruling either way? Is there precedent for only subjecting one model amongst a group of models who all take jetbikes or motorbikes or terminator armor to the benefit of doing so?

I can only speak to the armies I know about, but if you put a squad of orks on bikes, they all benefit from +1T, and their profile now reads 4(5). Eldar benefit the same, and I presume space marines do too?

If that's the case, why would anyone presume that Dark Eldar should be the exception to the rule? The codex was written....a decade ago? The FAQ 5 years ago? The language used to refer to the same things has doubtlessly undergone some changes in that time. Shouldn't a ruling be the thing that violates as little of 40k rules as possible? If every unit in 40k across all armies treat embarking on a jetbike the same way, why would you presume that an FAQ for Dark Eldar intends differently and choose to define one of the words in its explanation in such a way to break all other precedent, codexes, and rules for how those bikes work?

And the main rules FAQ (and book) state that if there is discrepency, follow the specifics in the codex, or in the case of outdated rules, ignore them.

the dark eldar codex is so old that the instant death rules where different,

the bonus for being on the jetbike are already included in their profile thus why they are s 4 t 4, instead of 3/3.

but yes they are 3(4) for the purposes of instant death.

Oh dark eldar codex how I love thee.