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So I'm sure this has probably come up, but is the machine spirit an acutal...spirit? Because from what I've read one could almost think that it was just an advanced A.I. Programmed to assist in firing, and in some cases complete self preservation. I mean is it even possible that the imperium would have A.I.s? They don't seem to be all that into computers...at all, so I was just wondering. It'd make sense with most of the fluff....right?

I've always taken the Machine Spirit to be a small AI, more or less like a souped up auto-pilot.

The Imperium doesn't really have 'technology' as we think of it in modern times. What they have is a capability to copy or maintain already existing designs churned out by the STC machines. They don't understand how they work, only that you need to do certain rituals.

Obviously we know that when you do maintenance on a car you are replacing worn components with good ones.

To the Imperium, you are following a holy scripture and the results are good because you got the ritual correct and placated the Machine God.

Top level engineers and tech priests probably don't think that way but they guard their knowledge jealously to keep power in their own hands.

That's just a piece of software.

They're the ghosts in the machines. The space wolf ones even eat and drink when no ones looking.

Kilkrazy wrote:Top level engineers and tech priests probably don't think that way but they guard their knowledge jealously to keep power in their own hands.

Spot-on. This is a sub-plot of the HH book Mechanicum

Ah, okay so my supicions are correct ._.

The Machine Spirit is an advanced computer with organic components. A.I. or Abominable Intelligence is banned within the Imperium and is Techno-Heresy.

Isn't the machine spirit the Void Dragon?

No, I`m pretty sure that`s the machine god. Fluff wise in the SM codex the Land Raider has an ability called `Machine Spirit`or something like that. It allows one extra weapon fire quoting that the machine spirit helps the crew out at time. Fluff wise it has also been known for a Land Raider to go rogue with no crew and wipe out some enemy unit and then be destroyed. I assumed that was an accidental switch to search and destroy mode by someone ._.

The machine spirit is many different things - Power armor probably has diagnostic software that could be called the "machine spirit," while a land raider actually has some sort of combat computer/automation to assist the crew. Other things like Titans are even more complex. Of course, some machines have none of these things the "machine spirit" is simply superstition.

The acolyte of the mechanicus think they are placating machine spirits with their ministrations. They know that hte 24th step in the activation of the valkyrie's turbine engines is to "strike the holy rune of power marked ON" but they don't know that it's hitting that button that actually starts the machine.

I`d say that`s a fairly accurate way of describing it.

I always thought of the Machine Spirit as just OS for whatever it happens to be in. Some have different outputs like the ones in the Land Raiders that are also part organic.

I think that Machine Spirits are the fragments of now-dead Artificial Intelligences from before the Great Crusade.

I don't think there are any solid, official definitions on what the Machine Spirit is--it really just depends on the author/creative content.

In some fiction, it's just an "organic" AI. The Imperium, having lost so much of its knowledge, resorts to believing in superstition when it comes to getting tech to work the way they want it to. Hell, the fact that you have terms like "tech-lore", "catechisms of dara-retrieval", etc. imply that getting things to function is more or less a leap of faith.

In other fiction, it's definitely not an AI at all, but more or less the machine's "soul"(Hellforged has examples of this, iirc). In this case, the machine itself is psuedo-sentient, capable of having "feelings"(being offended, etc.) to some degree. It's noted in that one novel that involves the Men of Iron(or was it Iron Men) that long ago, the Imperium learned the hard way not to build/trust "soulless machines", which I think kills the purely artificial firmware perspective. This is my favorite interpretation.

As I say, A.I. or Abominable Intelligence, alternatively the Silica Animus is a banned Techno-Heresy. There are some rogue Techpriests and hereteks that try and make A.I. however, such as the Logigians.

The Iron Men were A.I. constructs. In some background it is worded in such a way that the Iron Men were machines created and used by A.I. perhaps not necessarily A.I. themselves. Generally though they are thought of as possessing A.I. and the best information of them can be found in The Journal of Keeper Cripias.

So I guess windows vista developed a soul of it's own in 40k...

"Should a machine not function upon striking the panel marked 'on' this is an omen of great ill. The reasons ascribed may be as follows. Firstly, the function of inadequate preparation on the part of the operator. Secondly, the action of the machine whose spirit may refuse the binding of the operator. Thirdly, the malintent of some third party upon the operator or machine. The operator must repeat the ritual from the beginning repurifying himself, enscribing the runes, intoning the incantations, and striking the panel marked 'on'. An accompanying oath may be made. Should this procedure fail, the operator must recourse to consulting the instruction manual."

-Runic Spaceflight - An Introduction: Naval Flight Manual W110E

tigonesskay wrote:So I guess windows vista developed a soul of it's own in 40k...

Vista was lost along with the other STC stuff. Horus found it during the crusade, and thats when he pledged his soul to chaos and tried to slaughter humanity. Its also the cause of tech-heresy, the death of Chuck Norris, and the following Dark Age of Technology.

The Adeptus Mechanicus.Because of their superstition,greed and non-inovation(what's wrong with it) I have always hated them.


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Gogsnik wrote:As I say, A.I. or Abominable Intelligence, alternatively the Silica Animus is a banned Techno-Heresy. There are some rogue Techpriests and hereteks that try and make A.I. however, such as the Logigians.

The Iron Men were A.I. constructs. In some background it is worded in such a way that the Iron Men were machines created and used by A.I. perhaps not necessarily A.I. themselves. Generally though they are thought of as possessing A.I. and the best information of them can be found in The Journal of Keeper Cripias.

There are ones in Tanith first and only novel series.The regiment founds chaos-corrupted STC for Iron Men and the Iron Men have all sorts of awesome weapons like plasma gun from back etc....

The Mechanicus do build new things just not often and it usually takes centuries or even millennia of development.

Ordinarily though it would be like asking someone why they don't just re-write the Bible to edit out the bits they don't like and stick in a few new things that they do like.

Ordinarily though it would be like asking someone why they don't just re-write the Bible to edit out the bits they don't like and stick in a few new things that they do like.

And people have done that throughout history.

IvanTih wrote:The Adeptus Mechanicus.Because of their superstition,greed and non-inovation(what's wrong with it) I have always hated them.

Funny. Those are my major complaints against modern corporations.

Back to topic, I always pictured it being something along the lines of being an AI just because that always ties together nicely the Imperium's technophobia and the capability for hypocrisy.

Inquisitor - "AI is terrible! It is heresy of one of the worst forms!!!"
Acolyte - "Psst. But Sir! We use AIs in our Land Raiders."
Inquisitor - "...AI is terrible, which is why we have the... uh... MACHINE SPIRIT from the MACHINE GOD in our vehicles! PRAISE THE EMPRAH!"

Conclusion: I love the Imperium.

DruidODurham wrote:And people have done that throughout history.

The operative phrase there is, 'throughout history'. Re-read my entire post. I clearly say that the Adeptus Mechanicus has and does innovate but 'ordinarily' this is not the case, just as it is not the case for people to re-write [insert religious text of choice] every other weekend.

The basis of religion is faith, faith that what is put in front of you is right. The Adeptus Mechanicus have faith in the will and creations of the Omnisiah so except in rare circumstances they will not even conceive of the idea to create a new thing or alter what has been created as that would show a lack of faith, faith in the notion that anything worth creating has already been created or that eventually the Omnisiah will lead them to the re-discovery of ancient technology, anything else is hubris and blasphemy.

daedalus wrote:

Funny. Those are my major complaints against modern corporations.

Back to topic, I always pictured it being something along the lines of being an AI just because that always ties together nicely the Imperium's technophobia and the capability for hypocrisy.

Inquisitor - "AI is terrible! It is heresy of one of the worst forms!!!"
Acolyte - "Psst. But Sir! We use AIs in our Land Raiders."
Inquisitor - "...AI is terrible, which is why we have the... uh... MACHINE SPIRIT from the MACHINE GOD in our vehicles! PRAISE THE EMPRAH!"

Conclusion: I love the Imperium.

stupid imperium and their inquisition they truly do not understand the inner workings of their vehicles s the tau do thats why your still using design that are 10,000 years old

Well, remember that Dreadnoughts are driven by a pilot's soul, and it can stay into the circuits (unactive chaos dreds are kept tied, for if there's any part of the mad psycotic pilot's soul into it). So, the Machine Spirit can be part of a very good pilot's soul.

Big things like Titans seem to have their own personalitys, but that might just be residue form all of the previous pilots who were physically and mentaly incorperated into the machene by plugging their brains into it non-stop for up to three hundred years at a time.

What really galls me is that it is said that the Fabricator General of Mars has ALL the STC templates, and just hoards them because that's what keeps him in power. Think of the children!

I remember reading somewhere that its one of the c'tan who's tomb's under mars, ill try to find a source

here we go-
http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/C%27tan

i believe that c'tans name was the void dragon

You guys are confusing the Machine God (most likely the C'tan on Mars or at least ideas based on him) with Machine Spirits, which exist within every piece of technology.

According to this the machine spirit and the void dragon may be one of the same.