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Here's my shot at creating a viable Troop listing under the current codex for a Deathwatch Kill Team.

What do you all think?

http://arolkay.com/SiteImage/Deathwatch/Kill_Team.doc

The rules look good I am a little concerned that they might be priced to low. Also how about rules to convert the squad members to veterans with the further options of taking power weapons, fists, and other neat perks like they did in CA.

What's happened to the different ammo types the original Deathwatch had? That was one of the things that made the Deathwatch unique.

They get Sternguard ammo, which IIRC is rather superior to the old type of ammo the original Deathwatch used to get, but is also somewhat similar. What they are missing is an option to use the ammo for the heavy bolter, which would go with the fluff and I believe the old rules. I really think what they need are options to have specially equipped veterans in their ranks. Also didn't the old DW all have targeters and combi-weapons instead of plasma guns, meltas, and flamers?

Deathwatch should, if not must, have targeters. They should also have different ammos for the H.Bolters, like Grunty said.

The heavy bolter could have an ammo type like this

Profile
Range 18" Str5, Ap4, Assault 3, always wounds on 3+ vs preferred enemy


ANNND speaking of PE. why don't they have preferred enemy for all xenos. I was told they had it originally??

Here's what I based it on: Doesn't have combi weapons or preferred enemy.

http://arolkay.com/SiteImage/Deathwatch/deathwatch.pdf

@Valkyrie its in the special rules. I just gave them the Ammo that Sterngaurd get.

I would suggest:
Drop the cost of combi-weapons and storm bolters to 5p each (in line with sternguard).
Replace the HBolter option with a Hellfire HBolter (as scouts) for +5p
Increase the base cost to 120 OR increase the cost of marines to 22p ea.
Let any number upgrade to Vets for +5 and get access to Sarge's armoury.
Add option for Libby.

Pherion wrote:Here's what I based it on: Doesn't have combi weapons or preferred enemy.

I guess I was thinking about the sternguard when I made my comment about combi-weapons. The targeters are from the models themselves, I order a bitz pack and every bolter had targeters or sights on them.

Black Antelope wrote:I would suggest:
Drop the cost of combi-weapons and storm bolters to 5p each (in line with sternguard).
Replace the HBolter option with a Hellfire HBolter (as scouts) for +5p
Increase the base cost to 120 OR increase the cost of marines to 22p ea.
Let any number upgrade to Vets for +5 and get access to Sarge's armoury.
Add option for Libby.

I agree with everything here. I want make the further suggestion of lowering the Captains WS to 5 and removing a wound like he has it in the article.

Sternguard are similar enough to Deathwatch to use their rules in friendly games. If I get around to ever making a squad I would probably use their rules and have used them with my inquisitor. What distinguishes DW from Sternguard are their targeters, deepstrike, ability to take in-squad upgrades like powerfist and weapons, and true grit.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
But the librarian should not be the Space Marine HQ version, but a specialized and probably toned down version that focuses on squad upgrades like eldar warlocks. Keep him two wounds and maybe disallow the force weapon.

Yep, they need targeters + Deepstrike.
If they have true grit:

Basic arment should be Boltgun, CCW, Frag, Krak, MeltaB, Targeter, True Grit, Deep Strike, Acute Senses, ATSKNF, Combat Tactics (NOT removed/replace by any SC's)

Special Issue Ammo should be altered to:
Dragonfire/Kraken/Hellfire as C:SM
Drop Vengeance (designed to fight CSM, which is not the job of the Deathwatch)
Add Metal Storm (Rg18" S3 AP- Assault 3)
Add Stalker Silenced (Rg24" S4 AP5 Heavy 2, Pinning)

Assuming the above, then a basic cost of 25p per model (WS4 BS4 S4 T4 W1 I4 A1 Ld8)
Start with Sarge + 4 DW, for 130p
Any number can be upgraded to Vets for 5p each (WS4 BS4 S4 T4 W1 I4 A2 Ld9)
Sarge is (WS4 BS4 S4 T4 W1 I4 A2 Ld9)
Upgrade Sarge to Captain for 50p (WS5 BS5 S4 T4 W2 I5 A3 Ld10), has Power Weapon rather than CCW, gives squad Prefered Enemy (Xenos)
Upgrade Sarge to Libby for 50p (WS4 BS4 S4 T4 W2 I4 A2 Ld9), Has Force Weapon rather than CCW, Bolt Pistol rather than Boltgun, has a psychic Hood, has any one of the powers

Up to 2 normal DW replace Boltgun with:
Heavy Bolter w/Hellfire - 5
Heavy Bolter w/Suspensors - 12
Plasma Gun - 10
Melta Gun - 6
Flamer - Free

Any Vets can replace Boltgun and/or CCW with:
Combi weapon (Melta/Plasma/Flamer) - 5
Power Weapon - 12
Power Fist - 25
Lightning Claw - 15
Storm Bolter - 2

Sarge can replace Boltgun and/or CCW with:
Combi weapon (Melta/Plasma/Flamer) - 5
Power Weapon - 12
Power Fist - 25
Lightning Claw - 15
Storm Bolter - 2
Storm Shield - 20
Thunder Hammer - 30

Captain can replace Boltgun with:
Storm Bolter - 2
Bolt Pistol - Free
Plasma Pistol - 10
Combi weapon (Melta/Plasma/Flamer) - 5
Lightning Claw - 15
Storm Shield - 20

Captain can replace Power Weapon with:
Combi weapon (Melta/Plasma/Flamer) - Free
Power Fist - 15
Lightning Claw - 5
Storm Shield - 10
Thunder Hammer - 20

Libby can replace Bolt Pistol with:
Storm Bolter - 2
Plasma Pistol - 10
Combi weapon (Melta/Plasma/Flamer) - 5
Storm Shield - 20

Libby MUST take 1 power, all of which need a psychic test at the start of your shooting phase, and lasts until your next turn.
Nightshorud - See C:IG - 10
Lighting Arc - See C:IG - 10
Breath of Panic - Shooting attack, Rg Template S5 AP- Assault 1, Pinning OR Rg24 S3 AP- Heavy 1, Large Blast, Pinning - 15
Sacriment of Battle - Enemy must pass a Ld test to assult the DW. The DW may reroll any Ld tests they must make - 5
Warshout - Squad gains the Furoius Charge and Rage USRs (test taken at start of movement phase)- 20
Warrior Angels, fight at my side! - In CC, if the Libby is still alive, any enemy units with a model is B2B with the Libby takes D6 WS5 S5 I4 hits - 10

Why does a DW libby have IG psychic powers?????

My suggestions they are a bit similar to Black Antelope.

Base cost 25 – it the same cost as sternguard
Veteran upgrade – 5 points adds an attack and gives the option to buy power fist at 15 or weapon at 15

Librarian upgrade for one marine – 15 points grants the ability to reroll DP shatter and one of the following:
Gives the unit fighting rules for enemy that attempt to target it – 10 points
Gives unit a 4+ save against all psychic power attacks – 5
Both require Psychic test taken instead of shooting.
or other rather tame powers - nothing too powerful
I am against force weapons or hoods as it seems too powerful for such a character.

Lower Captain’s leadership to 9 - he is the captain of a single squad, not a hundred marines.

Targeters, meltabombs, frag/krak, and true grit are standard

Half the squad can upgrade to combi-weapons or storm bolters.

Heavy bolter is the only Heavy option and comes with hellfire blast shells with suspensions.

Can purchase infiltrate.

Counts as a second HQ for allied army.

Lots of combat weapon options within the squad, but keeping with bolters and combi-weapons.

Grey Templar wrote:Why does a DW libby have IG psychic powers?????

because they are apropriatly low level for a weaker psyker than a full libby.

Black Antelope wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:Why does a DW libby have IG psychic powers?????

because they are apropriatly low level for a weaker psyker than a full libby.

Except there really is no such thing as less than a full Librarian. Even the lowest ranking Librarians (Lexcianums) have already had years, almost decades, of training and development as both psykers and Space Marines before they are allowed to join any formation. Check out the IA article on them. And given the nature of the DW missions (i.e. alone and in hostile territory, facing aliens of unknown capabilities), the inclusion of a full strength SM codex librarian is certainly warranted.

PanzerLeader wrote:

Black Antelope wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:Why does a DW libby have IG psychic powers?????

because they are apropriatly low level for a weaker psyker than a full libby.

Except there really is no such thing as less than a full Librarian. Even the lowest ranking Librarians (Lexcianums) have already had years, almost decades, of training and development as both psykers and Space Marines before they are allowed to join any formation. Check out the IA article on them. And given the nature of the DW missions (i.e. alone and in hostile territory, facing aliens of unknown capabilities), the inclusion of a full strength SM codex librarian is certainly warranted.

There might not be any tabletop examples for apprentice psykers for the space marines, but they definitely exist in the fluff. Experienced Librarians start their careers as other space marines. There are even stories of psychic scout marines who are just beginning to develop their psychic abilities.

The space marines that go into deathwatch do so almost as part of their development. I imagine most go off and join between the time where they are full status marines, but before they become sergeants or other high level of function that establishes them into the chapter as a necessary component. They don’t really lend out their Chapter Masters, Librarians or other such characters. The people who rose to captain did so during their tour of duty in the DW.

My best explanation for why we don’t see level 1 or 2 librarians in a space marine army is because they are not permitted to use their abilities on the battlefield until they reach an extreme level of skill. It is just sensible to think that there are some psychic marines that actually exist between the “Yeah I just learned to light a candle with my mind” to “I just opened a rift in the warp and destroyed a chaos dreadnought” level of psychic capability. Remember as DW they are playing by different rules than those prescribe by the Codex they follow as chapter space marines. The Inquisitor might be far more liberal in allowing a developing psyker to try his hand.

I read in the fluff behind the DW that members are recruited from chapters with strong ties to the Ordo Xenos and they are already skilled against Xeno warriors before they join, they hone their skills against xeno while they are there.

At least the libby should be upgradable to a higher level. The libby in the DW story in Heroes of the Space Marines book was not slouch.

Librarians are not that common for the chapters. I guessing that three full fledge librarians and 4 or so of the lesser calibers would generally be considered a lot for most chapters, some don’t have any. And these Librarians have spent something near a hundred years perfecting themselves and becoming a lynchpin to their Chapter. I don’t think they‘re going to run off to fight for an Inquisitor an leave their chapter in a ditch.

Fluff books are always contradicting themselves, but I was under the general impression the Marines did their DW tour before they advanced past sergeant in their own chapters. It just doesn’t seem right to me that Chapter HQs would join in such an enterprise. Also unskilled pyskers still could still be very powerful. Someone who just started using their abilities could surpass someone who had been training for 50 years- just look at the problem rouge psykers cause the imperium. But using p. hoods and force weapons that represents a lot of training on the marine's part.

As for preferred opponents, half of what the DW are fighting they never encountered before, there is no reason to think that they have more experience fighting xenos then the veterans from their chapter. Also remember that many veteran marines in the chapters have once been members of the deathwatch and then return back to their fortresses. The DW are a temporary unit of marines that complete a tour or two and return to their home planets, they are not like grey knights who are specialized against a single type of foe. It could be easy to imagine that the DW are assembled for one campaign and then they disband in which case they wouldn’t have anymore direct experience then anyone else in the situation.

Grunt13 wrote:Librarians are not that common for the chapters. I guessing that three full fledge librarians and 4 or so of the lesser calibers would generally be considered a lot for most chapters, some don’t have any. And these Librarians have spent something near a hundred years perfecting themselves and becoming a lynchpin to their Chapter. I don’t think they‘re going to run off to fight for an Inquisitor an leave their chapter in a ditch.

Fluff books are always contradicting themselves, but I was under the general impression the Marines did their DW tour before they advanced past sergeant in their own chapters. It just doesn’t seem right to me that Chapter HQs would join in such an enterprise. Also unskilled pyskers still could still be very powerful. Someone who just started using their abilities could surpass someone who had been training for 50 years- just look at the problem rouge psykers cause the imperium. But using p. hoods and force weapons that represents a lot of training on the marine's part.

As for preferred opponents, half of what the DW are fighting they never encountered before, there is no reason to think that they have more experience fighting xenos then the veterans from their chapter. Also remember that many veteran marines in the chapters have once been members of the deathwatch and then return back to their fortresses. The DW are a temporary unit of marines that complete a tour or two and return to their home planets, they are not like grey knights who are specialized against a single type of foe. It could be easy to imagine that the DW are assembled for one campaign and then they disband in which case they wouldn’t have anymore direct experience then anyone else in the situation.

I'm not saying the Chief Librarian runs off to join the fight. But if you read the Index Astartes article, its pretty clear that the standard is to test recruits for psychic potential upon induction and then immeadiately begin their training in the Librarium. Marines are, outside of the Inquistion, perhaps the most concerned with maintaining the purity of the geneseed and the honor of the chapter and any recruits with psychic potential are not allowed to go out on their own until their training is complete and they have been inducted into the Librarium. It would also make sense for chapters with homeworld or planets they recruit from inside the xenos threatened area to send a full Captain or Librarian to lead the investigation. Several marines are also noted as serving several DW tours, based on previous experiences or the anticipated threat level.

I have read this article, but it was a while ago. While psykers are sorted at the start they are not removed for the other marines during their basic training and combat missions. The go through the same training scouts, tactical, everything, they just have further instruction on their abilities. The first time such a marine sees a battlefield they are a scout, same as the other marines. They just don’t use their abilities in these confrontations.

My concern is also with game play. With a high-powered Librarian the squad gets reduce to sidekicks. They become absorption wounds for a force weapon and a p. hood along with a high level power. With a full powered librarian in the mix the DW get reduced to a retinue and serves as a meatshield/ deliver method for a powerful character.

I don't think so in terms of game play. The Librarian as written in Codex:SM is the definition of a support HQ. A full libby makes a DW squad more powerful in the same way he bolsters a Sternguard unit. It doesn't detract from the coolness of the DW or make them some kind of meatshield squad.

As a member of the DW the librarian becomes hidden to close combat, unless he gets a special rule saying he counts as an independent character despite being unable to leave the squad. Imagine telling your opponent that his chaos lord, warbosses, or chapter master can not target the librarian they have in base contact and that they have to drop the 9 accompanying marines while the libby has a few turns of free shots with his force weapon. The psychic hood would just gravy in that situation.

All imperial armies use DW and this would create a really beardy situation where a guard player buy DW just to get the librarian so they could cancel out psychic attacks from their Ulthwe opponent. Or to get a hidden force weapon to take out a chaos lord in hand to hand right when the he gets into combat.

Again, the points cost easily offsets this problem. At 25 points a Marine, plus the Librarian upgrade, you're looking at easily 300+ points for the unit you described before you add anything beyond the stock bolters. That is a significant points cost for a squad of Marines with no invulernable save, no additional toughness and a regular 3+ armor save. I can't see many IG players trying to buy even a minimum DW squad for use of the psychic hood because a Librarian and 5 DW guys (the minimum proposed) would cost 230 points before any upgrades. Thats two Vendettas right there and that is a huge trade off in a Guard list. If you want a psychic hood that badly, you are better off buying an Inquistior Lord with 3 Mystics and a Psychic hood for about 85 points. LD10 and unlimited range.

The Librarian also is not the CC monster you seem to think anymore. 3 attacks at WS5, I4, S4 is not much off a threat to most HQs. Against a Chaos Lord, you will inflict an average of 0.49 wounds per turn (3 attacks, 1.5 hits, .75 wounds, 0.49 after a 5++). And you still can't use the FW if he used another power to support the DW earlier in the turn unless you upgrade to an epistolary for 50 points. Plus, you neglect to mention that since he can't be singled out he is subject to the normal wound allocation meaning that every powerfist wound on the squad has the chance to kill him and random bolter fire can bring him down more easily.

I think we are at in impasse here. You guys in believing that a full-fledge librarian would be fluffy and gaming appropriate and myself assuming the opposition opinion, desiring a toned down one devoid of force weapon and hood. You make persuasive arguments, but I still feel a full powered libby creates a situation that is ripe for exploitation. Probably only through thorough playtesting can such unit be properly gauge. I going to agree to disagree and allow other issues such as ammo, deployment, and overall design to take the floor.

One issue I like more and more as I think about it is giving the squad the option to infiltrate if they don’t deepstrike. I think it is fluffy and completely within their nature as lackeys to an inquisitor; I just am not sure that the ability might be a little too powerful with their Sternguard ammo at 25 points per model.

Deathwatch had Librarians before. I don't see the big deal. And if you take away his Force Weapon and Hood... then what is he?

I agree the DW squad should have the ability to take a Librarian. However you guys are taking this argument a little too far. This shouldnt be a thread to "make new DW" All you really need to do is bring the CA DW in line with the current edition space marines. Maybe toss in one or two special things to keep them different from Sternguard and there you go. Antelope hit a few good points but i dont agree with his ideas on the psychic powers. The heavy bolter able to fire at assault 3 and blast template was one of the defining characteristics of the DW squad. That should definately be something that is included in your rules for them. As for the including some of the Sternguard rounds, i agree. The preferred enemy against xenos isnt completely ridiculous. They should have something to make them stand out vs xenos. I dont see the "training vs xenos" being a problem. Because not only may they have more experience vs them, they also have the technology and knowledge of the Ordo Xenos at their disposal. That would count for something.

Deathwatch are much more than just sternguard. They should have the appear from the mist rule that the legion of the damned have, to show their xenos hunting skills.

s.j.mccartney wrote:Deathwatch are much more than just sternguard. They should have the appear from the mist rule that the legion of the damned have, to show their xenos hunting skills.

again, that defeats the purpose. Robbing ideas from other units is just going to make them overpowered and not unique. they still need to be set apart from the other units in the SM codex, because they are not vanilla marines. they are the chamber militant of the ordo xenos.

tekk_45 wrote:This shouldnt be a thread to "make new DW" All you really need to do is bring the CA DW in line with the current edition space marines. Maybe toss in one or two special things to keep them different from Sternguard and there you go.

Admittedly I am a bit bias here, given I have a Deathwatch army, but I think Deathwatch should cover all squad types. I myself have DW Tactical, Command, Dev, Assault, and Terminator Squads.

I havent seen one of those in a long time.... Well as I made clear i was just referring to the squad (which i have), however your case is significantly different; my apologies for misunderstanding.