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Hi Dakka

I want to put together a Tzeench CSM list.

So far im committed to

8x Thousand Sons + Aspiring Sorceror ~245 points before power chosen

10x Chosen (2x plasma guns, 1x melta, 1x flamer) with Champion ~240pts

Greater Demon 100

Demon Prince with Wings, Mark Tzeench and Warptime (dont have points to hand)

Want to make up 1500 points

Thinking must haves are more troops and some armour killing capability

Along those lines thinking slapping an icon in the chosen and gating in 2x oblits to support those 2 plasma guns, also thinking a second unit of another 2 oblits not a bad idea (realise thats 250pts of oblits -too much?)

Leaves the rest for CSMs in Rhinos and Raptors.

Can I pls get some comments from those who run CSMs / play them often - note want to remain with the Tz theme so no lash princes etc

Appreciate all suggestions



Automatically Appended Next Post:
* 75*4 is 300pts of oblits, not 250..

If your running a MOT DP I suggest Doombolt and some other non-shooty power. Doombolts pretty rad!

TS squads are so... expensive, which is my issue with a tzeech list. However, cuz you have your heart set, I would look at something like this

3x 8 man 1k sons squads
- sorcerer
- bolt of change
- rhino's

1x Sorcerer
- MOT
- Doombolt and 1 other power, maybe even a familiar

1x DP
- MOT
- wings
- doombolt and maybe 1 other power

and maybe look into a MOT terminator squad thats kitted out for anti-tank. The main issue you'll have with a MOT list is popping armored vehicles, so I highly suggest taking some vindicators or chainfist terminators or something.

Hope this helps!

Wind of chaos also works good for glancing shots on tanks. It also insta kills everything that you roll a four or higher for. The only problem with this power is you have to get in your opponents face to use it since ir uses the flamer temp. I am not going to lie running a pure 1k sons list is rough but if you mix in things like chosen or regular CSM it makes it a little more bearable. On heavy suppory i like defilers and vindicators oblits are just overused and i dont think they go along real well with tzeentch theme.

Take terminators with mark of tzeentch with the 1k sons heads - just because they look rad.

I agree they do look pretty cool the only problem is finding those heads without paying an arm and leg for them. I found a site that had them and wanted $3.50 for 2 heads. Uhhh.....no thanks.

Convert your own with plascard/Greenstuf...
________________

Are you looking for a competitive orcs

Thousand Sons are meh.
Chosen: get them a rhino. I suggest not mixing weapons like that.
GD: meh.
DP is ok, get Wind of Chaos in there with him to make him the 205 DP.

DEEPSTRIKING Oblits is an option, but (IMO) not something you’ll want to do consistently.

4 Oblits is 300, not 250.

Troops and ranged support is a good idea, CSM with meltas in a rhino is a good all-rounder.

Yeah mixing weapons isn't a great idea with Chosen. 1 melta gun? when you NEED to take down that tank, and your melta is within 6" and you roll a 1, you will learn

Chosen are a good choice for a 1k sons list- brings much needed AT. I'd make the squad/s 6-8 man squads with a rhino, 4 melta's and a champ w/ fist, outflanking. Icon on them can guide deepstriking units- but since they are outflanking, you might not be able to use that icon to guide, and the Tzeentch Icon is rather expensive for what you get so as far as icons go on them, YMMV.

My elites would probably be the above chosen squad, and 2 termicide squads. Dreads not worth it, possessed are fluffy but they are such a flop it hurts they look so good, mine have a nice paintjob, but they are just so crap =\

for troops- 100-1500 points, 2 CSM squads and 1 1k sons squad. anything above I'd throw in another squad of 1k sons. Expensive buggers they are, and because they lack 2 CCW's, i feel that they are a little more content with some regular Marines hanging around to fill in the gaps or countercharge to help them out i don't really use 1k sons though, so YMMV- experiment, swap things around, find out ratio works and what doesn't.

FA- at 1500 or less, probably wouldn't bother. You won't really have many points after your HQ and troops.

HS: Defilers fit the Tzeentch theme well i reckon. Vindi's too- if you possess them i recently put a possessed head for the gunner of my Predator turret, he looks like he's having a ball up there getting his dakka on . I think a Havoc squad equipped to take down transports (4ML's, 2 AC/2 ML, ML/2AC/LC are my 3 favourites) would be a must- long range support while you drive up, and honestly opening up a transport then rapid firing with your 1K sons on MEQs will smash them damn quickly.

Remember, YMMV and experiment, experiment, experiment!

@Jihallah:

Re: Dreads: it's not that they are not worth it.
For 100, they are cheaper than the loyalists...so for points they are a great support unit for CSM squads.
The issue is the annoyance that they may not do what you want them to do.

BUT:

If you run full combat, then it's only 1/6 of the time you don't like it.
If you run shooty/DCCW, it's only 1/6 of the time you don't like it.

Blood frenzy is really not that bad.
_____
Re: Possessed: they are a functional unit. This time the problem is price.
They are a competant combat unit, shining (IMO) best in counter attack. Though zerkers are more economical, the possessed have more variety.
_____

Re: Theme: DREADS fit the theme of TS.
Defilers not so much as they are originally Black Legion stuff and are just gifts from Abby to the other cults.

Sanctjud wrote:
If you run full combat, then it's only 1/6 of the time you don't like it.
If you run shooty/DCCW, it's only 1/6 of the time you don't like it.

Blood frenzy is really not that bad.

Its a bit more involved than that. There will be situations that you are forced to move towards or charge something you dont want to with a CC dread, and there will be situations that you will be forced to shoot something you dont want to with a shooty dread (frequently your own guys!). These situations will happen in a lot of games (unless you deploy specifically to minimise this, which puts you at a disadvantage already) and a lot of the time it will lose you the game. The real downside is not knowing. In a game based on chance anything that could turn out negatively is bad, where as anything that could turn out positively is good. This is why warptime is so good, because it maximises your chance of succeeding on your rolls. Adding to your army anything that could lose you the game without your control is just bad.

Sanctjud wrote:

Re: Possessed: they are a functional unit. This time the problem is price.
They are a competant combat unit, shining (IMO) best in counter attack. Though zerkers are more economical, the possessed have more variety.

Possessed suffer from a similar problem, although it is not as stark as in the case of dreads. The problem is not knowing, what weapons they will have, especially until after deployment. Putting them in a transport and then rolling 'fleet' or deploying for counter attack and then rolling 'scouts'. Addmittedly sometimes you will get exactly what is useful, but other times you will not. It is better to have things that you know will be of use, than things that could be of good use, or could be on no use. Considering their price as well there are better options for most CSM armies (berzerkers/terminators)

@OP: Tzneetch armies are tricky, particularly if you stick 1KSons fluff, because 1KSons are only a mediocre troops choice. They look good on paper but in practice most of their abilities are rendered useless by 4+ cover saves and they are very expensive. They also arent good to use in conjunction with greater demons, because their unit champions cost 60pts+. However, make the army you want too play with, i'm just giving you forewarning.

To play with greater demons you need more cheap champions. Chosen fit this bill quite well, especially since they can infiltrate. Consider including two squads of 7 or 8 rather than one of 10. It will reduce your chances of losing the cheap champions before your demon shows up. Im going to echo the point about their equipment, always play to your strengths and always focus your choices. When i first started playing 40k somebody told me that things that are specialised will perform better than things that are supposed to be flexible, and its the best advice anyones ever given me. So take all of one type of weapon (probably meltas). If you MUST take two types give them two meltas and two flamers, but nothing else.

For your DP you may as well take the second power. Mark of tzneetch isnt good enough by itself to warrant its cost. Doombolt is effective and cheap but wind of chaos will wreck your opponents infantry and is passable against vehicles. However, at that points cost you really wont want it getting shot at at all, so i'll leave the choice down to you. Think about getting another one though, because one is a massive target all my itself.

Your 1KSons themselves have only medium ranged weapons but are slow and purposeful. This isnt a good combination. Get round this by sticking them in a rhino. It helps with their speed and gives them a little bit more protection to boot. Your sorcerer should have Bolt of Change if you are low on anti-tank and probably doombolt and melta bombs if not. I have heard of people giving their sorcerers warptime for a little bit of a kick in CC, but i havent tried it myself. I would also pick up a second squad. Good things get better with in numbers and helps you out if you lose one squad early on.

As far as Heavy support goes, I'm a big fan of oblits. In most of my games my oblits wrack up more kills than anything else in my army and my regular opponents have learnt to focus on them first (to the exclusion of my winged DPs, clever people). So i would certainly include some, 4 at minimum in 1500pts. You can also paint them to look like they are blue, gold and on fire, which looks awsome. Other than that vindicators with possession are ok and havocs are of, but thats about it. Defilers are too fragile for their points cost and size and landraiders are only good if you are doing assault tricks with them or as bunkers.

Raptors with MoT are a bitch for pure 1Ksons armies to deal with, but not too much truble for everyone else, so i would shy away from them. Bikes are far too expensive for what they are so I wouldnt take any.

CSM are good filler if you dont want to take any other cult troops. In rhinos they can give you some cheap and mobile scoring units with some meltas to help with anti-tank, and maybe even some extra champions for your greater demon, just in case.

@Regwon:

That 1/6 I mentioned was Fire Frenzy, and I agree it’s bad.
But, with bloodfrenzy, you lose one shot with those weapons, you seriously think those shots are that imperative?
Generally, the dread should be deployed supporting troops, if it charges something within 13- 18” of the CSM it’s doing a good job already.
For turn 1-3 (for a combat dread) it should be running anyway.
Hybrid Dread can be seen getting better shots running forward.

I was not considering a Chaos Rifleman Dread cause I suggested against it at the start, so bloodfrezy would suck for it.

All I was advocating was to have combat in mind for the dread as you don’t have the choices ‘SOMETIMES’.
What you do get in return is armor saturation and a cheaper than normal Dread (with respect to loyalist dreads) at the cost of some craziness that can BOTH work FOR you or Against you. But it will work for you more than it will do against you.

Shooting at own guys with guns is bad, but that’s why you have another dread or some rhinos nearby.

Yes, it could be really bad and it can be really good. It’s dependent if you are a risk averse or risk loving player.
_____________--

Possessed:
See, it’s a point of view issue.
ANYTHING I get on the table is good. Deploying them for counter attack is generally do different to deploying them for distraction purposes.
They are upfront with the other rhinos, sometimes the spearhead.
Transport + Fleet is a wonderful combination. With counter attack in mind, their area of influence has just increased.
One may charge from an unmoved rhino.
2” disembark, 1” base out of the 2” disembark, 6” move, D6 fleet, 6” charge. 16- 21” charge range, instead of the basic 15” range.

Better is subjective though. I will agree they are pricey for what you get. But there are indirect bonuses to using Possessed:
The ‘unknown’ aspect is also a bonus. Keeping low under the threat radar is a bonus. Their deaths mean less small arms going for scoring stuff. They still contest, sucks they don’t score, but that means they can be expendable and charge something dangerous you wouldn’t want troopers to do.

I’ve had amazing success with possessed. They are a unique choice that has its own standards. If you expect them to perform like zerkers, you won’t like them. I’m not trying to make anyone use them, just noting that they are a functional unit and are not worthy of all the crap being thrown around about them.
Spawn deserve that, and hell, I’ve had many successes with spawn too.

Do I like spawn? No.
Do I like possessed? No.
Have they both wrecked house with a little care and planning: 100% yes.

Chosen:
I don’t think foot flamers work.
While infiltrating rules are very strict, limiting the usefulness of meltas, esp. for larger squads. Though they are a good delivery for a Greater Daemon, there is the issue of Dawn of War.




The problem with Bolt of Change:
-It still needs to roll to hit, sucks with one shot.
-It supplements them, but complimenting them is more powerful.
-Shooting out of a rhino means only moving 6 inchs.
-It’s expensive.
-It wants to be a melta gun, but misses out on the 2D6.

Good things get better with in numbers.
So… crap things get better with numbers, or is it just more crap?

Not only do the CSM provide all that, they help them out in the counter charge/assault roles, more bodies, and more bolters.

Thank you all

Here is where I am at with this list

Pls continue to give suggestions and help me shape this into a competitive list v all comers (accepting theme limitations)

HQ
1 Demon Prince Mark Tzeentch, Doom Bolt, Warptime 165

Elite
9 Chosen Meltagun, Meltagun, Fist, Icon Tzeentch 157
1 Aspiring Champ 28
1 Rhino 35

3 Terminators 2x Powerfist, Hvy Flamer 115

Troops
6 Thousand Sons 138
1 Aspiring Sorceror Warptime 85
1 Rhino 35

6 Thousand Sons 138
1 Aspiring Sorceror Wind Chaos 90
1 Rhino 35

Hvy Support
2 Oblits 150
2 Oblits 150

Summoned Demons
1 Greater Demon 100
6 Lesser Demons 78

Total 1499



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Slight change to incorporate Wings for DP

HQ
1 Demon Prince Wings, Mark Tzeentch, Doom Bolt, Warptime 185

Elite
9 Chosen Meltagun, Meltagun, Fist, Icon Tzeentch 157
1 Aspiring Champ 28
1 Rhino 35

3 Terminators 2x Powerfist, Hvy Flamer 115

Troops
6 Thousand Sons 138
1 Aspiring Sorceror Warptime, Meltabombs 90
1 Rhino 35

5 Thousand Sons 115
1 Aspiring Sorceror Bolt of Change 85
1 Rhino 35

Hvy Support
2 Oblits 150
2 Oblits 150

Summoned Demons
1 Greater Demon 100
6 Lesser Demons 78

Total 1496

I've never been a fan of lesser demons. They are a lot less good than your standard CSM for only 2pts less. You also have only one icon to summon them off so if your single chosen unit dies, which is entirely possible, they will just die. It would be better to scrap them and add to your 1Ksons. The power of 1Ksons is in shooting so you cant afford to only kill a few of the unit you open fire on, you have to devastate it, so take many models units as you can.

Your terminators seem a little out of place. With terminators you have to think about what their role is going to be. Read this article about CSM terminators and decide on what you want them to do. Otherwise scrap them.

Try to keep your 1Kson sorcerers with the same powers so that they can both function at the same job. Either have them both with BoC or with warptime/meltabombs. Not mixing equipment also applies across arimes to a degree. If you have two equipped the same then one can substitute for the other if one is killed.

Your lack of scoring units may be a bit of a problem but you cant deal with that unless you have a serious reconstruction of your army.

Other than that it looks fine.

Hmm all sounds good Regwon

Will read the article, their role was to gate in together with 2 Oblits & the demons off the infiltrated chosen.

Happy to scrap the termis and potentially the lessers and bulk up the 1k Sons. Will mean that flank/rear infiltrate will now be 10 chosen, 2 Oblits and a Greater Demon.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Hmm all sounds good Regwon

Will read the article, their role was to gate in together with 2 Oblits & the demons off the infiltrated chosen.

Happy to scrap the termis and potentially the lessers and bulk up the 1k Sons. Will mean that flank/rear infiltrate will now be 10 chosen, 2 Oblits and a Greater Demon.

Curtesy Regwon I have settled on this list
Thank you for all replies

Demon Prince 185pts
Wings
Mark of Tzneetch
Warptime
Doombolt

Greater Demon 100pts

7 Chosen 206pts
Aspiring Champion
Melta Gun x3
Flamer
Rhino

7+1 1Ksons 271pts
Sorcerer
Doombolt
Meltabombs
Rhino

7+1 1Ksons 271pts
Sorcerer
Doombolt
Meltabombs
Rhino

7 CSM 165
Aspiring Champion
Melta Gun
Rhino

2 Obliterators 150

2 Obliterators 150

1498pts

@Regwon:
I’m not a fan either, but it’s highly dependent on squad size and what points one is running.
I run a single 20 man lesser daemon squad…they wreck infantry as tough as MEQ.
But I agree, they don’t fit the OP’s list esp. in that squad size.

@Loricatus Aurora:
At your most recent list:

I’m iffy about Doombolt…seems a waste.
Greater Daemon: IMO get another prince instead.
Chosen: are ok.

Dustbuckets: meh.
CSM: go with 10 or don’t go with them at all IMO.

Oblits are ok.

I don’t know… it might just be a 1500 list, but it seems to lack real bite.
The oblits look over tasked.

How about this list

Betraying (emotive language used deliberately) my plan to go with Tz only, but ack taking second DP to lash prince for the cost of a fist makes more competitive list and did read from Sanct somewhere Tz are masters of sorcery, whose to say they cannot get all psychic powers..

This loses 3 of the Oblits but bulks up punch in other areas - thoughts?

Demon Prince Wings, Mark Tzeentch, Gift Chaos, Wind Chaos 110 100 210

Demon Prince Wings, Mark Slannesh, Lash Submission 110 45 155

9 Chosen + Champ 3x Meltagun, Flamer, Fist 190 60 250
Rhino 35 0 35

8 Thousand Sons 184 0 184
Aspiring Sorc Wind Chaos 60 30 90
Rhino 35 0 35

8 CSM 2x Meltagun 120 20 140
CSM Champ Fist 30 25 55
Rhino 35 0 35

5 CSM Meltagun 75 10 85

Oblit 75 0 75
Oblit 75 0 75
Oblit 75 0 75

1499



Automatically Appended Next Post:
So it can be read.

Demon Prince Wings, Mark Tzeentch, Gift Chaos, Wind Chaos 210

Demon Prince Wings, Mark Slannesh, Lash Submission 155

9 Chosen + Champ 3x Meltagun, Flamer, Fist 250
Rhino 35

8 Thousand Sons 184
Aspiring Sorc Wind Chaos 90
Rhino 35

8 CSM 2x Meltagun 140
CSM Champ Fist 55
Rhino 35

5 CSM Meltagun 85

Oblit 75
Oblit 75
Oblit 75

1499



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Hmm another change..

Thinking making the DP the 205 DP mentioned above and using those 5pts for meltabombs on the aspiring sorc.
Agree getting thousand sons in there very expensive... A nice big unit still there to bust up SM opponents.

Ah the rotten corruption of Slannesh has been at play!

Forget anything other than Tz! List I wrote above from Regwon with GD and 2x Thousand Sons squads is what I am going with.

Thanks again all contributors.

They take a little tinkering to do well with but dont worry it will come to you. Just figure out how you typically play and build your list around that. Also just because you lose doesnt make it a bad list maybe something tactically went wrong or bad dice. Keep playtesting.

Thanks Vindi

The list will have lots of Dakka, need that GD to come through otherwise the prince will have his hands full..

Might experiment with losing some of the oblits and instead going with a Possessed Vindicator - agree very fluffy - have heard Abaddon created defiler so seems pretty unfluffy for this list


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So might end up with something like this:

HQ Total
1 Demon Prince Wings, Mark Tz, Warptime, Wind Chaos 205
1 Demon Prince Wings 130

Elites
9 Chosen Chaos Marines 3x Meltagun, Flamer 197
1 Aspiring Champion Powerfist 53
1 Rhino 35

Troops
8 Thousand Sons 184
1 Aspiring Sorceror Wind of Chaos, Meltabombs 95
1 Rhino 35

9 Chaos Marines Flamer, Meltagun 150
1 Aspiring Champion Powerfist 55
1 Rhino 35

9 Chaos Marines Meltagun 145
1 Rhino 35

Heavy Support
1 Vindicator Possessed 145

Total 1499


Light on heavy support and its all about getting up to the enemy with this list as nothing has any range - very Chaosy but maybe not a game winning strategy compared with something like Nids/Orcs?

Anyway would love thoughts/suggestions.

As i have extremely bad luck with chosen I'd go with something like this:

HQ
DP
+MOT
+Wings
+Warptime -- 175

DP
+MOT
+Wings
+Warptime -- 175

Troop

7 x 1ksons (Objective Camper)
Sorcerer
Bolt of Change
Rhino -- No Wep -- 258

7 x 1ksons (Objective Grabber)
Sorcerer
Winds of Chaos
Rhino -- TL Bolter -- 268

7 x 1ksons (Objective Grabber)
Sorcerer
Doombolt
Rhino -- TL Bolter -- 248


Heavy Support

3 x Oblit -- 225

2 x Oblit -- 150 (I'd say fluff would let you put a Defiler here, but oblits are good too)


Totally Fluffly......no
But close enough

thanks SF although I feel the oblits would be overtasked similar to a list higher in this thread - aside from them its the princes tearing vehicles apart by hand

here is another list which I think is pretty good Tz - not as many thousand sons but possessed vindis to me are Tz fluffy all over

HQ Total
1 Demon Prince Wings, Mark Tz, Warptime, Wind Chaos 205
1 Demon Prince Wings 130

Elites
10 Chosen Chaos Marines 2x Meltagun, Flamer 205
1 Rhino 35

Troops
8 Thousand Sons 184
1 Aspiring Sorceror Wind of Chaos 90
1 Rhino 35

10 Chaos Marines Meltagun, Meltagun 170
1 Rhino 35

5 Chaos Marines Meltagun 85
1 Rhino 35

Heavy Support
1 Vindicator Possessed 145
1 Vindicator Possessed 145

Total 1499

Oblits are so...boring. Everyone uses them.

For my proposed Tzeentch list, I go with I believe 3 squads of 10 thousand sons, sorc. w/ B.O.C, prince w/ MOT, Doombolt, and something else I forgot, and 3 defilers.

Oh, battlecannons.