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Following a weekend of gaming with my orcy mate, im running through some tactics, and i started thinking...

My Ultramarines tactical squads are usually the vanilla x 10 with one ML and one flamer.

Anyway, as you might expect, several times over the weekend, we had the usual situation when its SM vs Orcs, of 40 slugga boys, legging it across open ground, trying to get choppy with my marines.

Now, doing the math from several engagements, i seemed to have more success allowing the orcs to charge, despite me thinking it was always preferable to avoid this. In that, if i move to meet the onrushing orcs, then assault, Bolters cannot be fired. But the flamer can, so, say that the flamer (bear in mind saves and rolling to wound) kills 3 boys, plus the vanilla sgt kills one with his Bolt pistol. I charge into 16 boys with 22 attacks. Hit on 4s (say hit with 11) wound on 4s (say wound with 6) and he gets a save (say makes 1) Ive killed 5 more, so, 9 dead in total, means i get hit back by 11 boys, with two attacks each, plus one extra close comabt weapon = 36 attacks in return.

Now, (if your still with me). If i allow the boyz to assault me, by standing there and carrying on shooting, when i move into 12" i can fire the bolters twice, but not assault. Hitting on 3s, and killing on 4s with no saves.

So what im getting at in a roundabout way, is, other than for using on cover, is it not worth just scrapping the usual flamer in a tac squad and just taking another bolter?

Because it seems like assaulting into a horde is always a bad idea, even with ten tough as nails marines. I ask the question because once i figured out i was succeeding more with constant volleys of fire rather than beating my mate into the assault, i never used my flamers anymore.

Your thoughts please gents?

Space Marines have bolt pistols as well by default, so they still lose killing power if they go on the charge but not as much.
Also only the boltgun is replaced so the Flamer and ML marines have pistols as well, for when you have to move but somehow end up 12" away from the target


Personally I like the Flamers because they always hit, free hits are good in my opinion. Bolters are most effective at 12" though, the template being 8" long usually means that if you're in rapid range, you're in template range. But, the Tactical Squads will be much better if they're configured for one role.

mattyrm wrote:Now, doing the math from several engagements, i seemed to have more success allowing the orcs to charge, despite me thinking it was always preferable to avoid this. In that, if i move to meet the onrushing orcs, then assault, Bolters cannot be fired. But the flamer can, so, say that the flamer (bear in mind saves and rolling to wound) kills 3 boys, plus the vanilla sgt kills one with his Bolt pistol. I charge into 16 boys with 22 attacks. Hit on 4s (say hit with 11) wound on 4s (say wound with 6) and he gets a save (say makes 1) Ive killed 5 more, so, 9 dead in total, means i get hit back by 11 boys, with two attacks each, plus one extra close comabt weapon = 36 attacks in return.

Still - only 18 of them hit, 6 wound and 4 are saved by power armour.
The only thing to be worried about is the power klaw. I would personally try to get 2 of my tac squads into the fight and break the orks with fearless/morale checks.

Shows what a noob i am. I totally didnt think about pistols except for the sergeant who is holding a chainsword!

So when i moved, shot and then assaulted, instead of only firing the flamer and one pistol, i could actually have fired 9 pistols (thats 8 SM with boltguns and the guy with the Missle Launcher?) and the flamer?!

Ill remember that, having just chcked the codex they do indeed have bolt pistols.

I think you have just answered my question. A flamer is indeed worth taking if i can get 9 shots off with BP alongside it and THEN assault.

Cheers for the advice guys.

There's no point in not assaulting the orcs. Let me correct your math a little so you'll see:

Let's figure it a mob of 20 orcs incoming.
Rapid firing the orcs with the flamer hit, let's say, three models:
Bolters: 14*2/3*1/2=28/6=4.67 dead orcs
Bolt pistols (serg and heavy) 2*2/3+1/2= 4/6=0.67 dead orcs
Flamer: 3*1/2=1.5 dead orcs

That makes for about 6.84 dead orcs.
In return the surviving 13 orcs will charge you (probably shooting before doing so), profitting from FC (they do don't they?) and an additional attack. (no math on that for I don't exactly know the orcs profiles. but i guess that tac squad is dead by then...)

Now we'll use the boltpistols and charge:
Bolt pistols: 9*2/3*1/2=18/6=3 dead orcs
Flamer: 3*1/2=1.5 dead orcs
Charge: 22*1/2*1/2*5/6=110/24=4.58 dead orcs

So we get to have 9 dead orcs before they swing without their profit from charging.

So assuming you don't have a chance to prevent the orcs from reaching combat (like embarking a transport and get away) you clearly profit from charging them before they do. In my experience (though I didn't fight orcs very often) the greenskins don't make up for good fighters when not getting the charge.


Edit: D'oh! quickposting going on...

Aye thanks icanus, as stated earlier.. i wasnt thinking about the pistols. Novice mistake.

2 flamers is a world of difference compared to 1 flamer

Its a free weapon for you're tac marines, which you can combat squad up and have sarge w/ powersword/fist, marine with flamer, and 3 tac marines running around with your free missile launcher/4 other tac marines providing cover. Although, IMO Flamers are best on mobile units, not footsloggers. Tac marines with a flamer in a rhino are 100% better than tac marines with a flamer running around.

Im confused with the rules then, the codex says you can replace a bolter with a flamer if your squad is ten men. Can you give flamers to anyone? And is this legal with current rules?

I thought you were only allowed one per ten guys...

Right. One flamer per tac squad, 2 per assault squad. BUT you can take the Tac, and combat squad down to 5 man teams, and take the flamer half in the rhino.

I think we switched from talking about one type of squad to another and threw you off.

Jihallah wrote:2 flamers is a world of difference compared to 1 flamer

And thats why Vulkan/sistas getting to drop 8+ with rerolls is insane and hurts my poor sw.

And of course if you have 2 tac squads, combat squaded down, you can run the 2 flamer halves together to get mutil template fire.

Something very important that seems to be overlooked here.

1. Ork Boyz have a base strength of 3. They're only STR4 on the charge, and only for the turn they charge. There is NO situation where its better to be charged by orks than to be charged, not even if you're sitting in cover and they don't have stikkbombs.

A squad of 20 boyz charging with 4 attacks each at STR4, I3 is much different than a squad of 20 boys being charged who have 3 attacks each at STR3 at I2. You can math-hammer that one out yourself, but the easiest way to beat Orks is to deny them the charge. Well, shooting the crap out of them of course, but then denying them the charge.

spycer wrote:And of course if you have 2 tac squads, combat squaded down, you can run the 2 flamer halves together to get mutil template fire.

What? What are you trying to say.
They are 2 different squads. Hence, no multi-template. You have to resolve one squads' shooting before you do anothers.

The only way to get multi-templates in a tac squad is a 10 man with free flamer, and the vet gets a combi-flamer.

Sanctjud wrote:

spycer wrote:And of course if you have 2 tac squads, combat squaded down, you can run the 2 flamer halves together to get mutil template fire.

What? What are you trying to say.
They are 2 different squads. Hence, no multi-template. You have to resolve one squads' shooting before you do anothers.

The only way to get multi-templates in a tac squad is a 10 man with free flamer, and the vet gets a combi-flamer.

I meant hitting the same squad with 2 flamer templates, not from the same squad, but from each combat squad.

Now, if you added Combi-flamers on the Sgts, it gets painful.

Flamers are great in bunches!

now if you were Sisters, rapid fire w/ Divine Guidance is the only way to go

DG is kind of a waste on orks, isn't it?

Bolters and Flamers are AP5.

Just take a 10 man assault squad with 2 Flamers to back up your Tactical Squads.

That will put the hurt on any Ork mob. You hit them with 2 flamer and 8 boltpistol rounds then charge with 30 STR4 attacks.

there really wont be anything left of a 40 man squad.

Flamers are cool because they are free, yes they are worth it.

When I face orks I take the same configuration.

The key to stopping orks is to shoot them from afar with Heavy bolters, missile launchers(which will deny armor) have combat squads with flamers get close enough to shoot with bolt pistols and then assault

A squad of forty boys should have been reduced by 1/4 to one half by the time of assault, if you have the following, 2 squads with flamers and one has a heavy bolter the other a missile.

2 turns at least of long range shooting, we will figure 4 Hvy bolter shots hit and 3 orks die. missile launcher, hits 7 orks and kills 4.

Then flamers hit 10 and kill 5. bolt pistols hit 12 and kill 6. long range shots from heavy weapons squads hit 5.5 and kill 3. heavy bolter hits 2 and kills 1.8. missile launchers kills say 1.

then you assault. at this point there is 17 orks left and the assault hasn't been resolved yet.

This tactic whittles the orks down (which is what the ork player expects) and then stops the charge dead in its tracks(something the ork player doesn't expect)

Being a SW player, I can see the advantage of using a flamer. Howqever, I much prefer the might of meltaguns in my squads, as they are much scarier to a mech army, and they can be used to melt heavy infantry as well. However, I do use a RP with TC, so that covers me for close range death

EX