Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

If a tau commander has 2 drones, then looses them both, does that mean he can't regroup as per BRB regrouping rules or does he avoid thata by being an IC.
I ask this because drones "form a unit" with him but he's still able to join other units, like an "independant unit" And the units regrouping rule clearly says no regrouping bewol 50% streingh.

Clearly i'm asking this in relation to not wanting to take a bonding knife for a lone warrior.

HoverBoy wrote:If a tau commander has 2 drones, then looses them both, does that mean he can't regroup as per BRB regrouping rules or does he avoid thata by being an IC.
I ask this because drones "form a unit" with him but he's still able to join other units, like an "independant unit" And the units regrouping rule clearly says no regrouping bewol 50% streingh.

Clearly i'm asking this in relation to not wanting to take a bonding knife for a lone warrior.

He is an IC. IC's may always regroup.

That makes sense but i still can't find it written anywhere.

As an IC hes a unit of one, simply by being alive he meets the "more than 50%" requirement.

Just to come up with a contrived scenario, let's say that there are three Tau IC's and each of the IC's have two drones. Exactly 5 drones die at once, so the nine model unit was reduced to four models. If the unit falls back, does it count as being under half size because of the dead drones? Or do most people just write them off as "just wargear" and count my hypothetical IC's and drones as now four models out of four (instead of four models out of nine)?

If the drones are fully part of the unit then I think this falls under the "IC falling back and can't regroup because he can't leave the non-existent unit" paradox which the IC rules set up. Does that just get swept under the rug with the other bits of nonsense in the IC rules?

solkan wrote:Just to come up with a contrived scenario, let's say that there are three Tau IC's and each of the IC's have two drones. Exactly 5 drones die at once, so the nine model unit was reduced to four models. If the unit falls back, does it count as being under half size because of the dead drones? Or do most people just write them off as "just wargear" and count my hypothetical IC's and drones as now four models out of four (instead of four models out of nine)?

If the drones are fully part of the unit then I think this falls under the "IC falling back and can't regroup because he can't leave the non-existent unit" paradox which the IC rules set up. Does that just get swept under the rug with the other bits of nonsense in the IC rules?

In this case, yes, they count as Under half Strength and continue to fall back. An IC who has had it's retinue (which the drones Are, like it or not) destroyed reverts back to an IC, so is now a unit of 1 with 1 model left, thus at 100% Strength.

Tau Codex, p 31 wrote:Drones under the command of a drone controller are counted when assessing if the unit they are with should take a Morale check having taken 25% casualties. They are similarly counted when determining if the unit is strong enough to claim an objective. If their unit suffers losses, drones are counted when determining if it is below 50% for Victory Point purposes.

It seems the under 50% rule only counts for Victory Points and 4th ed ways of claiming objectives. However, concerning retinues, if a Commander takes a Bodyguard, and the Commander and Bodyguard all purchase drones so that there are more drones than suits, and the unit loses models enough to take a morale check under 50% and fails, they will be forced to run off the table unless they've bought a bonding knife, since the IC will not revert back to IC status until the retinue is gone.

Gwar! wrote:An IC who has had it's retinue (which the drones Are, like it or not)

Not quite. p32 of the Tau codex states under rules for a Commander Independent Character: "If accompanied by drones, he may still join other units as an independent character." So he's not restricted to the same restrictions of a true "retinue" when accompanied by drones.

synchronicity wrote:

Gwar! wrote:An IC who has had it's retinue (which the drones Are, like it or not)

Not quite. p32 of the Tau codex states under rules for a Commander Independent Character: "If accompanied by drones, he may still join other units as an independent character." So he's not restricted to the same restrictions of a true "retinue" when accompanied by drones.

It is still a Retinue, which is simply a unit the IC cannot leave. Wolf Lords et al. with Wolves are the most recent units to have a retinue.

Which equates to situations such as an HQ suit, with drones, being accompanied by a bodyguard. The bodyguards get picked off, then the drones get picked off, then the HQ dies. By your logic of "anything you can't leave is a retinue" that squad is worth 3 kill points. INAT doesn't play it like that, i don't play it like that, and i've never known anyone who does.

Unless they spell it out, such as honour guards and bodyguards, i wouldn't consider my HQ squad to be a special case of multiple retinues.

I don't think that's what Gwr! was saying.

If you have a bodyguard (suits) then the suits and the drones will all count for unit size.

Once the other suits are gone then he stll has a retinue but is allowed to join otherunits.

Once he's alone then he's back to being a true IC.

Being able to join units is not the same as "is an independant character."

Gwar! wrote:

solkan wrote:Just to come up with a contrived scenario, let's say that there are three Tau IC's and each of the IC's have two drones. Exactly 5 drones die at once, so the nine model unit was reduced to four models. If the unit falls back, does it count as being under half size because of the dead drones? Or do most people just write them off as "just wargear" and count my hypothetical IC's and drones as now four models out of four (instead of four models out of nine)?

If the drones are fully part of the unit then I think this falls under the "IC falling back and can't regroup because he can't leave the non-existent unit" paradox which the IC rules set up. Does that just get swept under the rug with the other bits of nonsense in the IC rules?

In this case, yes, they count as Under half Strength and continue to fall back. An IC who has had it's retinue (which the drones Are, like it or not) destroyed reverts back to an IC, so is now a unit of 1 with 1 model left, thus at 100% Strength.

Ahh now i get it, thanks Gwar and solkan – for bringing that up.

Scott-S6 wrote:I don't think that's what Gwr! was saying.

If you have a bodyguard (suits) then the suits and the drones will all count for unit size.

Once the other suits are gone then he stll has a retinue but is allowed to join otherunits.

Once he's alone then he's back to being a true IC.

Being able to join units is not the same as "is an independant character."

No, if he's deliberately calling it a retinue then he's giving it the retinue rules (such as killpoints). There's no point in calling it a retinue if he doesn't think it's one, or if he's only referring to unit sizes. It states in the tau codex that the drones and character form a unit but still join other units. It states in the tau codex that drones matter with regard to unit strength etc. That's all we need for this. Tau have retinues, and the drones you buy are not one of them.

Strictly speaking, drones are wargear, not retinue...although, I suppose, they act like retinue in many respects (in assaults etc.).

Drones are also models and form a unit with the model they belong to.

Ridcully wrote:
No, if he's deliberately calling it a retinue then he's giving it the retinue rules (such as killpoints). There's no point in calling it a retinue if he doesn't think it's one, or if he's only referring to unit sizes. It states in the tau codex that the drones and character form a unit but still join other units. It states in the tau codex that drones matter with regard to unit strength etc. That's all we need for this. Tau have retinues, and the drones you buy are not one of them.

I know what you're saying but an IC with drones form a unit that the IC cannot leave - this is the definition of a retinue. The drones are not just wargear as they count towards unit strength. It does create the problem with kill points but this codex wasn't written with KPs in mind.

Scott-S6 wrote:

Ridcully wrote:
No, if he's deliberately calling it a retinue then he's giving it the retinue rules (such as killpoints). There's no point in calling it a retinue if he doesn't think it's one, or if he's only referring to unit sizes. It states in the tau codex that the drones and character form a unit but still join other units. It states in the tau codex that drones matter with regard to unit strength etc. That's all we need for this. Tau have retinues, and the drones you buy are not one of them.

I know what you're saying but an IC with drones form a unit that the IC cannot leave - this is the definition of a retinue. The drones are not just wargear as they count towards unit strength. It does create the problem with kill points but this codex wasn't written with KPs in mind.

No they are not retinue because they leave if the controller dies. They are wargear. They are models but the rule doesn't say 50% of the models destroyed (unless the 25% of models dyeing rule that forces a moral check in the shooting phase). It says 50% strength and they are part of the controllers strength. The Tau codex specificly says when the drones affect checks and the 50% to regroup is not one of them it mentions.

Edit: Also an IC with Drones can join another unit. an IC with a retinue cannot

Not this again.

@VoxDei:Can a Commander with Drones leave the drones?

Yes or No please.

That doesn't make it a retinue, Gwar. Drones still allow the character to function as an independant character. A character with drones can be fielded with a retinue. A retinue can't be fielded with a retinue. Drones aren't bodyguards.

No, drones are another GW precedent that hasn't been fully thought thru

Edit: Dunno why it took me so long to figure it out

That's right.

The other example is the flying skulls and cherubs that some Imperial characters can have.

They don't fit the proper definition of retinues or wargear.

This comes into the point where the codex is more specific than the rule book. In the codex it states on page 31

Drones under the command of a drone controller are counted when assessing if the unit is strong enough to claim an objective. If their unit suffers losses, drones are counted when determining if it is below 50% for Victory Point Purposes.

Drones must maintain coherency with the unit their controller is in. If he is an independent character then the drones and the character form a unit but the character adn drones may still join another unit. If the character with the drone controller is killed then all his drones are removed at the end of the shooting or assault phase in which he died.

The first paragraph specifies when drones are counted for being models in the unit. No where does it state they count for determining if the unit is under 50% for regrouping purposes. It states all of the other times when they count for morale purposes such as when the unit takes 25% casualties.

Drones are bought as war gear for the model. These two paragraphs specify how the drones work as models on the table. It states when the drones count for VP purposes, falling back from shooting purposes, and how they must stay in coherency.

If a team of 3 Crisis suits all have 2 drones a piece. One model loses 2 drones. One model is destroyed which means the drones are removed. And the third model doesn't get a scratch and both drones are still alive. The unit began with 3 crisis suits and 6 drones for 9 total. At the end of shooting the unit is at down to 2 suits and 2 drones which is 4 total. 4.5 is 50%. 2.25 is 25%. So when 3 models are lost the unit begins falling back. For regrouping purposes 2 of the 3 crisis suits must be destroyed. These are the models that are NOT war gear but are actual models in the unit.

Drones need to be cleared up and have the rules rewrittten for them. Since the codex states exactly what the drones account for in the unit and when you take morale checks because of them it addresses the drones as semi-models but not quite models. These half model half wargear drones cause morale checks to fall back. It does not state they are models for purposes of regrouping.

Gwar! wrote:@VoxDei:Can a Commander with Drones leave the drones?

Yes or No please.

Of course not. They are his wargear. He can't take off his missle pod either. but with his drones attached he can still join another unit. Can a IC with a retiune join another unit?

Yes or no?

Gwar are you agreeing with me or disagreeing with me?

VoxDei wrote:

Gwar! wrote:@VoxDei:Can a Commander with Drones leave the drones?

Yes or No please.

Of course not. They are his wargear. He can't take off his missle pod either. but with his drones attached he can still join another unit. Can a IC with a retiune join another unit?

Yes or no?

Answer my question please and stop deflecting. Yes, or No. A Simple, 1 word answer please.

Gwar! wrote:

VoxDei wrote:

Gwar! wrote:@VoxDei:Can a Commander with Drones leave the drones?

Yes or No please.

Of course not. They are his wargear. He can't take off his missle pod either. but with his drones attached he can still join another unit. Can a IC with a retiune join another unit?

Yes or no?

Answer my question please and stop deflecting. Yes, or No. A Simple, 1 word answer please.

I did answer

No


Did this answer solve anything in the debate? Can an IC with a Retinue leave his Retinue? No. Can a IC with wargear leave his Wargear? No What was the point of this question? It didn't further the debate either way.

Gwar! wrote:@VoxDei:Can a Commander with Drones leave the drones?

Yes or No please.

No. Can a heavy weapons team leave it's weapon?

VoxDei wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

VoxDei wrote:

Gwar! wrote:@VoxDei:Can a Commander with Drones leave the drones?

Yes or No please.

Of course not. They are his wargear. He can't take off his missle pod either. but with his drones attached he can still join another unit. Can a IC with a retiune join another unit?

Yes or no?

Answer my question please and stop deflecting. Yes, or No. A Simple, 1 word answer please.

I did answer

No

I direct you then good sir to page 48 of the main Warhammer 40,000 rulebook, which is part of the Chapter on "Characters". Specifically, I direct you to the subheading "Retinues" on the bottom right hand corner of page 48, which I will quote and emphasise for convenience:

Retinues
Some Codex books allow you to field characters together with a special unit that they cannot leave during the game (which is normally called a 'retinue', 'bodyguard' or similar). Where this is the case, the character counts as an upgrade character until all of the other members of this unit are killed, at which point it starts counting as an independent character and it will do so for the rest of the game.

Therefore, by your own admission, an independent character with drones has a retinue.

That same page in the BRB says the IC then becomes an upgrade character in which he cannot join another unit. How ever a Commander with drones is still referred to as a character and may still join another unit. There for he is an Independent character with wargear

VoxDei wrote:That same page in the BRB says the IC then becomes an upgrade character in which he cannot join another unit. How ever a Commander with drones is still referred to as a character and may still join another unit. There for he is an Independent character with wargear

Does it say in the Tau codex it is not a retinue? Because by the rules, it is.

Gwar! wrote:

VoxDei wrote:That same page in the BRB says the IC then becomes an upgrade character in which he cannot join another unit. How ever a Commander with drones is still referred to as a character and may still join another unit. There for he is an Independent character with wargear

Does it say in the Tau codex it is not a retinue? Because by the rules, it is.

"...the drones and the character form a unit but the character and drones may still join another unit"

This defies the rules of a retinue