Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

VoxDei wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

VoxDei wrote:That same page in the BRB says the IC then becomes an upgrade character in which he cannot join another unit. How ever a Commander with drones is still referred to as a character and may still join another unit. There for he is an Independent character with wargear

Does it say in the Tau codex it is not a retinue? Because by the rules, it is.

"...the drones and the character form a unit but the character and drones may still join another unit"

This defies the rules of a retinue

And? Does it say "it stops being a Retinue"? Again, a yes or no answer please without trying to deflect. Does it say, specifically, "It is no longer a Retinue"?

It would seem to be a retinue that includes a rules allowance for joining another unit.

It meets one of the requirements of being a retinue. But it's not called a retinue or body guard. It is purchased out of the Suit Wargear list not the unit list (special unit?). And the IC can still join other units.

VoxDei wrote:It meets one of the requirements of being a retinue.

You mean one out of one requirement?

But it's not called a retinue or body guard.

So what? The rule says they are NORMALLY called a bodyguard or retinue, not "THEY MUST BE CALLED" a retinue or bodyguard.

It is purchased out of the Suit Wargear list

Again, so what? You buy Crisis Suit Bodyguard from a different entry too. Drones are models, they form a unit the IC cannot leave, They are a Retinue, and to claim otherwise is to not follow the rules.

So what does getting them labeled as a retinue do for the original question?

Gwar! wrote:

VoxDei wrote:It meets one of the requirements of being a retinue.

You mean one out of one requirement?

But it's not called a retinue or body guard.

So what? The rule says they are NORMALLY called a bodyguard or retinue, not "THEY MUST BE CALLED" a retinue or bodyguard.

It is purchased out of the Suit Wargear list

Again, so what? You buy Crisis Suit Bodyguard from a different entry too. Drones are models, they form a unit the IC cannot leave, They are a Retinue, and to claim otherwise is to not follow the rules.

Actually drones are listed under the war gear section ... not under the unit section. The only drones listed there are a gun drone squadron that has a minimum of 4 drones in it. Since these models are not bought from a separate section listing the unit (such as the bodyguard listing) they are deemed wargear since they are purchased with the model in question. Wargear does not constitute a retinue. A different unit constitutes a retinue.

A possible argument against this is that if the character takes 2 gun drones it is chosen form the unit listing but if it is any other types of drones it is chosen from the wargear section and does not create a retinue since there is no unit specified for these models as a unit - only as wargear. Since these models are not a unit it cannot constitute a retinue because of the wording unit as a requirement for retinue requiring a unit.

Arschbombe wrote:So what does getting them labeled as a retinue do for the original question?

Let them get it out of their sistem if we are lucky no one else will get hurt.

Gwar! wrote:

VoxDei wrote:That same page in the BRB says the IC then becomes an upgrade character in which he cannot join another unit. How ever a Commander with drones is still referred to as a character and may still join another unit. There for he is an Independent character with wargear

Does it say in the Tau codex it is not a retinue? Because by the rules, it is.

Gwar! wrote:

VoxDei wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

VoxDei wrote:

Gwar! wrote:@VoxDei:Can a Commander with Drones leave the drones?

Yes or No please.

Of course not. They are his wargear. He can't take off his missle pod either. but with his drones attached he can still join another unit. Can a IC with a retiune join another unit?

Yes or no?

Answer my question please and stop deflecting. Yes, or No. A Simple, 1 word answer please.

I did answer

No

I direct you then good sir to page 48 of the main Warhammer 40,000 rulebook, which is part of the Chapter on "Characters". Specifically, I direct you to the subheading "Retinues" on the bottom right hand corner of page 48, which I will quote and emphasise for convenience:

Retinues
Some Codex books allow you to field characters together with a special unit that they cannot leave during the game (which is normally called a 'retinue', 'bodyguard' or similar). Where this is the case, the character counts as an upgrade character until all of the other members of this unit are killed, at which point it starts counting as an independent character and it will do so for the rest of the game.

Therefore, by your own admission, an independent character with drones has a retinue.

Are you saying that a Shas'vre with drones in a crisis suit squad (ie an upgrade character) becomes an independent character when the other suits die? Are you saying that the squad he's fielded with is a retinue, just because he's a type of character? Worth 2 kill points?

You're saying drones are a special unit the independent character can be fielded with. The drones can't possibly be a special unit. They have no entry, they aren't a unit. There is no "drone bodyguard unit size: 1-2". We have that for bodyguards and honour guard. He's not being fielded with a unit, he is the unit and they're his wargear.

You haven't responded to my posts in this thread. You haven't said what they do with regard to being in a retinue of bodyguards, nor whether you play them as multiple kill points.

Ridcully wrote:Are you saying that a Shas'vre with drones in a crisis suit squad (ie an upgrade character) becomes an independent character when the other suits die?

No, because he does not have the Independent character rule. In this case, it is not a Retinue because he is not an Independent character. It is just a unit.

A character with a unit he cannot leave has a Retinue, end of story. If you don't like it, bully for you. Or are you suggesting drones and the IC are not a unit?

Gwar! wrote:

Ridcully wrote:Are you saying that a Shas'vre with drones in a crisis suit squad (ie an upgrade character) becomes an independent character when the other suits die?

No, because he does not have the Independent character rule.

Doesn't say he has to. It just states character.

Are you ignoring the rest of my post?

Hmm, I misread the rule. Looks like that Shas'Vre does become an IC. Yay for GW not being able to write for gak.

It doesn't say reverts back to, it says 'counts as', just as it says it 'counts as' an upgrade character.

Well how 'bout acknowledging the rest of my post then? My point makes more sense with the rest, as opposed to taking stuff out of context.

Ridcully wrote:It doesn't say reverts back to, it says 'counts as', just as it says it 'counts as' an upgrade character.

Yes, I know. I already posted a correction.

So yes, he becomes an IC. The Drones are optional, they are models, they form a unit. This is a Retinue, according to the Rules.

The drones aren't a unit, they can't be a retinue. I also posted a correction, please respond

You're also saying the regular upgrade squad is worth 2 kill points btw.

Ridcully wrote:Well how 'bout acknowledging the rest of my post then? My point makes more sense with the rest, as opposed to taking stuff out of context.

What other points? About if it worth 2 kill points?

Well, what do the rules say about ICs with Retinues and Killpoints? Reading is fun!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ridcully wrote:The drones aren't a unit, they can't be a retinue. I also posted a correction, please respond

So a Shas'Vre with Drones is not a unit?

This bit....

You're saying drones are a special unit the independent character can be fielded with. The drones can't possibly be a special unit. They have no entry, they aren't a unit. There is no "drone bodyguard unit size: 1-2". We have that for bodyguards and honour guard. He's not being fielded with a unit, he is the unit and they're his wargear.

You haven't responded to my posts in this thread. You haven't said what they do with regard to being in a retinue of bodyguards, nor whether you play them as multiple kill points.

Ridcully wrote:You're saying drones are a special unit the independent character can be fielded with. The drones can't possibly be a special unit. They have no entry, they aren't a unit. There is no "drone bodyguard unit size: 1-2". We have that for bodyguards and honour guard. He's not being fielded with a unit, he is the unit and they're his wargear.

So you are saying they are not models, and that if a drone is 23" from a Bolter but the Shas'vre is 25", the unit cannot be shot at? You are saying that because the Drones are not part of a unit that you cannot assault them? They cannot attack in Close Combat? They are models, with a profile, in a unit the Shas'Vre cannot leave. They are a retinue.

You haven't responded to my posts in this thread. You haven't said what they do with regard to being in a retinue of bodyguards,

Look, take a Shas'o, add 2 Bodyguard and 2 Drones. How many units do you have? Can the Shas'o leave this unit?

nor whether you play them as multiple kill points.

What I do in my own games is as irrelevant to this conversation as the genetics of the albino platypus. I will, however, admit this situation has not come up for me, as I have no Tau Opponents and have not played against Tau since 4th edition.

Ahh, but you only play one kill point for techmarines and their gun thing.

As for the first two, you've completely misunderstood what i'm saying. They aren't a 'unit' that the character is fielded with. They don't have an entry defining them as a unit, along with the independent character having an entry defining himself as a unit. Bodyguards, honourguard, and the retinues i've seen have had this. The characters, as per BRB, are fielded together 'with a special unit'. Not 'as'. This doesn't work for drones.

Extending the one line of "cannot leave during the game" causes many more problems than it solves.

Ridcully wrote:Ahh, but you only play one kill point for techmarines and their gun thing.

Because we agree to use the INAT FAQ in its entirety (much to my chagrin at some of the incorrect rulings, such as the Thunderfire Cannon one, but I grit my teeth and down a pint).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ridcully wrote:Extending the one line of "cannot leave during the game" causes many more problems than it solves.

That is GW's fault, not mine.

It's not GW's fault people take stuff out of context. I did the same thing with Shas'vres just now.

(but the middle paragraph was the important one)

Ridcully wrote:As for the first two, you've completely misunderstood what i'm saying. They aren't a 'unit' that the character is fielded with. They don't have an entry defining them as a unit, along with the independent character having an entry defining himself as a unit. Bodyguards, honourguard, and the retinues i've seen have had this. The characters, as per BRB, are fielded together 'with a special unit'. Not 'as'. This doesn't work for drones.

So what? They are still a unit, because they are models that have a profile.

Gwar! wrote:

Ridcully wrote:As for the first two, you've completely misunderstood what i'm saying. They aren't a 'unit' that the character is fielded with. They don't have an entry defining them as a unit, along with the independent character having an entry defining himself as a unit. Bodyguards, honourguard, and the retinues i've seen have had this. The characters, as per BRB, are fielded together 'with a special unit'. Not 'as'. This doesn't work for drones.

So what? They are still a unit, because they are models that have a profile.

Actually, is there a rule which says that all models that have profiles must be part of a unit? Units are composed of models, but I don't believe there is ever a requirement for all models to be part of a unit. . .

BeRzErKeR wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

Ridcully wrote:As for the first two, you've completely misunderstood what i'm saying. They aren't a 'unit' that the character is fielded with. They don't have an entry defining them as a unit, along with the independent character having an entry defining himself as a unit. Bodyguards, honourguard, and the retinues i've seen have had this. The characters, as per BRB, are fielded together 'with a special unit'. Not 'as'. This doesn't work for drones.

So what? They are still a unit, because they are models that have a profile.

Actually, is there a rule which says that all models that have profiles must be part of a unit? Units are composed of models, but I don't believe there is ever a requirement for all models to be part of a unit. . .

Page 3: In Warhammer 40,000, we represent this by grouping models together into units.

Page 3: A unit will usually consist of several models that fight as a group, but it can also be a single, very large or powerful model, such as a battle tank, a monstrous alien creature or a lone hero. In the rules that follow, all of these things are referred to as 'units'. The different types of unit are detailed overleaf.

Gwar! wrote:

Ridcully wrote:As for the first two, you've completely misunderstood what i'm saying. They aren't a 'unit' that the character is fielded with. They don't have an entry defining them as a unit, along with the independent character having an entry defining himself as a unit. Bodyguards, honourguard, and the retinues i've seen have had this. The characters, as per BRB, are fielded together 'with a special unit'. Not 'as'. This doesn't work for drones.

So what? They are still a unit, because they are models that have a profile.

That doesn't fit the "with a special unit" line. They all form a unit, but bodyguards/retinues have a separate "unit" entry. Drones do not. An independent character isn't being fielded together with a drone unit of 1-2. The suit can take up to two drones and they form a unit.

Crisis retinues, and other retinues, are an independent character and a retinue unit. As per BRB.

Ridcully wrote:That doesn't fit the "with a special unit" line. They all form a unit, but bodyguards/retinues have a separate "unit" entry. Drones do not. An independent character isn't being fielded together with a drone unit of 1-2.

It doesn't matter. They are still a unit. A Unit that the Character cannot leave. Thus, they are by definition a retinue.

Crisis retinues, and other retinues, are an independent character and a retinue unit. As per BRB.

They're together a unit, but drones are not a special unit to be fielded with an IC. They can't be a retinue.

Ridcully wrote:Crisis retinues, and other retinues, are an independent character and a retinue unit. As per BRB.

They're together a unit, but drones are not a special unit to be fielded with an IC. They can't be a retinue.

I think drones are a very special unit, being both models and wargear and having lots of special rules.

Drones have feelings too. Calling them not special is mean!

Well you're wrong, because they aren't a unit. Period.

They are however very special.

Ridcully wrote:Well you're wrong, because they aren't a unit.

So I assume your drones do not ever take wounds or make attacks in close combat, as they are not a unit?

They and the IC are one unit in the game, yes. Have you still not grasped what i'm meaning?

"taken together with a special unit"

Bodyguard/retinues are special units with a unit entry, options etc. Drones are not this. Drones form a unit with the IC. The IC unit is not fielded with a drone unit, with a drone unit entry.