Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Hi folks,

Can a stunned vehicle pivot or turn in it's movement phase?
I list my arguments:
1) Pivoting is not considered a movement (BRB, page 57)
2) Crew stunned is mentoined as: The vehicle may not move until the end of the owner's next player turn.

Any opinions?

Thanks,
Maxamato

p.s. I did a search in this forum but results didn't lead me to an answer.

From what I understand, no.

Pivoting is still a form of movement in the literal sense, and I dont have the BRB on me, but I think that the quote you are refering to is in relation to firing weapons or getting hit with close-combat attacks, not on the actual process of moving.

No, you cannot. Pivoting is movement. It just does not count as movement for the purposes of firing your weapons. Stunned vehicles may not move, just like how immobilised vehicles cannot move.

Ergo, a Stunned or immobilised vehicle may not pivot.

Thanks for the replies, but again - also on this forum - I recieve no proof as to why I am not pivot with a Crew Stunned result.

I mean, I don't wnat to anyway since we always played it this way, also in my tournaments. But still, where is the passage in the BRB saying that I may not pivot, or saying that Crew Stunned is treated same as Immobilzied. Not even INAT faq says something about it.

Problem is, the interpretation of BRB pg. 57 that this is only referred to shooting seems wrong, since header of pg.57 is called "vehicles and movement".

I know that everyone plays it like this (no-pivot allowed on crew stunned) but no one can tell me exactly why (with rules references)

SO I think the question is still not viably answered :-)

Maxamato wrote:Thanks for the replies, but again - also on this forum - I recieve no proof as to why I am not pivot with a Crew Stunned result.

Yes, you did. Pivoting is movement. It is an act you do in the movement phase that moves the vehicle. Or are you suggesting immobilised vehicles can pivot?

It does say in the BRB under "stunned" the vehicles targeting AND steering systems are temporarily scrambled. The vehicle may not move nor shoot. Seems pretty clear to me.

As far as not specifically stating it can not rotate. The only reason IMO they mention that the vehicle can not rotate when immobilized is because an immobilized vehicle can still shoot. They are just clarifying it may not rotate but its turrets can still operate. A stunned vehicle may do neither so they dont need to clarify.

Hi all!

Thanks again for your replies.

For me is this topic not so clear, but this could be a translation issue.

In the German BRB is written that pivoting don't count as movement (BRB page 57)!!

So far, it is possible (from the rule book view) that a stunned vehicle has the possibilty to pivot because the pivoting do not count as movement so far.
And in rules for stunned crew is written that is not possible to move and or shoot.

I'm wrong, and why?

Please help.

Regards
Maxamato

Maxamato wrote:In the German BRB is written that pivoting don't count as movement (BRB page 57)!!

It's in the English version as well. Specifically:

"Pivoting on the spot alone does not count as moving, so a vehicle that only pivots in the Movement phase counts as stationary (however, immobilised vehicles may not even pivot).


Seems clear to me. Pivoting alone is not movement. So Stunned vehicles can pivot. Immobilised vehicles can't, but only because there is a rule that specifically forbids it.

insaniak wrote:

Maxamato wrote:In the German BRB is written that pivoting don't count as movement (BRB page 57)!!

It's in the English version as well. Specifically:

"Pivoting on the spot alone does not count as moving, so a vehicle that only pivots in the Movement phase counts as stationary (however, immobilised vehicles may not even pivot).


Seems clear to me. Pivoting alone is not movement. So Stunned vehicles can pivot. Immobilised vehicles can't, but only because there is a rule that specifically forbids it.

Then how do you explain that passengers disembarking from a vehicle that had only pivoted count as already having moved?

Explain, or read in the rules?

OK, people who argue this kind of fine line detail make me crazy and generally hate playing against them. Sounds harsh, i know, but its the rules lawyers that make the game slower than necessary and general not as much fun to play IMO. Sure, GW COULD write a 10,000 page rulebook detailing every possible scenario and rules application that might foreseeably come up during a game....or between two academics who have nothing better to due than debate the finer points of GW rules....but thats not what we have.

So lets take the RAW and apply some...wait for it...common sense.

BRB page 61 wrote:Crew - stunned
The vehicle's crew is knocked about by the attack, or perhaps all of the vehicles targeting and steering systems are temporarily scrambled (or maybe the crew have decided to temporarily bail out and take cover somewhere nearby). The vehicle may not move nor shoot until the end of its next player turn.

Now, see how much clearer the ruling is when you read the whole paragraph and not just cherry-pick the sentence or sentence fragment that suitws your misinterpretation? Putting the whole paragraph into some context gives you the answer you seek. If all of the vehicles steering systems are temp scrambled, or they have bailed out and are taking cover outside the vehicle....how are they gonna pivot the vehicle? More importantly, the last sentence stating the vehicle MAY NOT MOVE nor shoot until the end of its next turn seems to seal the deal. Does pivoting count towards a vehicle's movement, no it doesn't. But are you taking your hand/fingers and MOVING the vehicle? Yes you are. And since you cannot move or shoot with the vehicle, you CANNOT pivot the vehicle, because that would be moving it.

Hope this clears it up for you. or perhaps you are one of those people I absolutely dispise that just likes to argue for the sake of something to do. I hope not.

~Bart

P.S. If this came off as a little bit pissy, its because rules lawyers are a major pet peeve of mine. If this doesnt apply to you, then you have my apologies, you hit my hot button. But if it does apply to you, then I'm glad we will never in all likelihood play against each other.

Barthonis wrote:
Now, see how much clearer the ruling is when you read the whole paragraph and not just cherry-pick the sentence or sentence fragment that suitws your misinterpretation? Putting the whole paragraph into some context gives you the answer you seek. If all of the vehicles steering systems are temp scrambled, or they have bailed out and are taking cover outside the vehicle....how are they gonna pivot the vehicle? More importantly, the last sentence stating the vehicle MAY NOT MOVE nor shoot until the end of its next turn seems to seal the deal. Does pivoting count towards a vehicle's movement, no it doesn't. But are you taking your hand/fingers and MOVING the vehicle? Yes you are. And since you cannot move or shoot with the vehicle, you CANNOT pivot the vehicle, because that would be moving it.

Hope this clears it up for you. or perhaps you are one of those people I absolutely dispise that just likes to argue for the sake of something to do. I hope not.

~Bart

P.S. If this came off as a little bit pissy, its because rules lawyers are a major pet peeve of mine. If this doesnt apply to you, then you have my apologies, you hit my hot button. But if it does apply to you, then I'm glad we will never in all likelihood play against each other.

Thanks for not clarifying anything, using a fluff sentence that has no rules involved in it as nearly your entire justification, ignoring the pivoting rules, and cherrypicking your own interpretation out.

Barthonis wrote:
But are you taking your hand/fingers and MOVING the vehicle? Yes you are. And since you cannot move or shoot with the vehicle, you CANNOT pivot the vehicle, because that would be moving it.

"Pivoting on the spot alone does not count as moving" and on the next page "(remember that pivoting on the spot does
not count as moving)" and in the tank shocking section "Note that because pivoting on the spot does not count as moving" and probably elsewhere. I think it's fairly clear that pivoting on the spot doesn't count as moving. The disembarking/embarking rules for disallowing further movement specifically mention that pivoting is included, as does immobilized... stunned does not.

That's what the rules say. Unless you're contesting that with a rule, don't post about how in the right you are because you think you are.

But can you move the turret or weapon sponsons, if ur immobilized?? or stun/ shaken??

StarGate wrote:But can you move the turret or weapon sponsons, if ur immobilized?? or stun/ shaken??

If you're immobilized you may still rotate your weaponry, but only to the degree they are normally allowed to move according to the type of mounting (pintle/hull/turret/etc).

If you're stunned/shaken you can't shoot, so it doesn't matter.

DoW

OMG, how much clearer can I say this.....

Are you moving the damn vehicle when you pivot it? YES YOU ARE!!!

So NO, you can't pivot when you are stunned. And the fluff you described is taken verbatim right from the crew - shaken description. Why would they include it in the same paragraph unless as examples to but into context what an abstract game mechanics rule would translate into in a "real life" (in the far-flung future that is) situation.

Or in modern terms.....My Abrams tank gets hit by an enemy tank. The electrical systems are knocked out temporarily and the driver is dazed from the concussion. Until he gets his wits back about him and we restart the tanks systems, we are stunned and cannot move or shoot.

Now I hate to use the "real world" examples, but I think that might clear it up for you.

Also, do any of you actual allow your opponents to pivot when they are stunned? Or do you yourself pivot while stunned? Or are you just another of those people that wanna argue just to argue.

~Bart

You're very clear, but you're also wrong.

RAW: Yes

I've never seen someone actually play like this though.

After stepping away from my computer I will respectfully disagree and walk away from this thread. I doubt anyone actually plays as you are suggesting, and I dont think we are going to convince each other that one of us is right as we both believe that we are right in our own views.

My apologies for getting overheated on this. And I will return to lurking.

~Bart

thebetter1 wrote:Then how do you explain that passengers disembarking from a vehicle that had only pivoted count as already having moved?

I explain it as a specific exception made by the disembarking rules, to stop people from parking a vehicle front-on to the enemy to keep the stronger forward armour facing them, and then in the next turn spinning it around to give extra disembarking range for an assault.

Barthonis wrote:Are you moving the damn vehicle when you pivot it? YES YOU ARE!!!

By the real world definition of moving, yes, you are.
So far as the rules of Warhammer 40K are concerned, no, you're not.

Also, do any of you actual allow your opponents to pivot when they are stunned? Or do you yourself pivot while stunned? Or are you just another of those people that wanna argue just to argue.

Yes to both questions.

I find it really strange that people serious think that pivoting isn't movement. Basically its because they pick some words out of context and get confused.

Basically, Pivoting is movement as explained by page 57.
Its done in the MOVEMENT phase (Is this a clue?)
Its part of a vehicles MOVE (Could be a hint here?)

So its pretty clearly part of a vehicle's movement.

Yes, it does state that if you only pivot you don't count as moving but in order to do nothing but pivot you must move the vehicle and then take that action which will mean that you count as not having moved it.

BUT you can't make a move with a stunned vehicle, therefore you can't make a type of move that doesn't count as moving because you're not able to get to the stage that states you don't count as moving without declaring the move... which you're not allowed do to.

Hurrah, another case solved.

Hymirl, you appear to be talking yourself around in a circle.

Yes, pivoting is done in the Movement phase.

But the rules specifically say that it doesn't count as movement. So if all you do is pivot, you have not (so far as the rules are concerned) moved the vehicle. Just as a unit that runs has not shot in the Shooting phase.

Performing a non-movement action in the Movement phase does not automatically count as moving the vehicle. Perticularly if the rules for that action specifically say that the action doesn't count as moving.

insaniak wrote:But the rules specifically say that it doesn't count as movement. So if all you do is pivot, you have not (so far as the rules are concerned) moved the vehicle. Just as a unit that runs has not shot in the Shooting phase.

But which rules say it doesn't count as movement? The vehicle movement rules.

You can't use the vehicle's movement when you're stunned so its irrelevant what they say you can or can't do. Thus the circular logic demonstration, its impossible for you to claim the pivoting rule with a vehicle unable to move.

Hymirl wrote:But which rules say it doesn't count as movement? The vehicle movement rules.

You can't use the vehicle's movement when you're stunned so its irrelevant what they say you can or can't do.

The vehicle being unable to move does not mean that you just ignore the entire vehicle movement section. It means nothing more that that the vehicle can not move. Any other relevant rules in that section still apply.

If the section of the rules that covers vehicle movement is pointing out that a given action does not count as movement, then that action can be performed regardless of the vehicle's ability to move.

insaniak wrote:

Hymirl wrote:But which rules say it doesn't count as movement? The vehicle movement rules.

You can't use the vehicle's movement when you're stunned so its irrelevant what they say you can or can't do.

The vehicle being unable to move does not mean that you just ignore the entire vehicle movement section. It means nothing more that that the vehicle can not move. Any other relevant rules in that section still apply.

If the section of the rules that covers vehicle movement is pointing out that a given action does not count as movement, then that action can be performed regardless of the vehicle's ability to move.

So if it cannot move, how can you declare that it is pivoting? While it does not count as movement, it still is movement.

If pivoting doesn't count as movement, a rule stopping you from moving doesn't stop you from pivoting... because it doesn't count as moving.


Edit: Meanwhile, what gives you the idea that you need to 'declare' that you are pivoting?

insaniak wrote:If pivoting doesn't count as movement, a rule stopping you from moving doesn't stop you from pivoting... because it doesn't count as moving.


Edit: Meanwhile, what gives you the idea that you need to 'declare' that you are pivoting?

The fact you have to declare what unit is moving and where it is moving, one unit at a time. If you cannot move because you are stunned or immobilised, you don't even get a chance to declare that you are moving the unit, because it cannot move.

And just to follow up on Gwar!'s statement, if pivoting doesn't count as movement then the following sequence is okay:

1. Rush rhino 12" forward and pivot to place rear hatch in desired position.
2. Disembark and move the transported unit.
3. Pivot the rhino to expose front armor.
(and repeat as desired if some part of a vehicle gets into an inconvenient position and models are trying to move around it...)

If pivoting isn't movement, step three is okay.

insaniak wrote:Edit: Meanwhile, what gives you the idea that you need to 'declare' that you are pivoting?

Basically GWAR has done a sneakly little trick called 'reading the rulebook,' specificly he has read page 11 which states how the movement phase works. By which you pick a unit to move, move it and then pick the next unit. Being picked to move is non-appicable to a stunned vehicle because it can't move and therefore cannot take any action in the movement phase whether it would actually count as moving or not.
This is unlike a unit which wishes to run even though it has no guns, because in that example you are selecting a unit that does not shoot, sadly there is no similar mechanic for vehicles pivoting being a rule used by vehicles which did not move.

Secondly, the other big difficulty you have trying to claim your position is valid is how far you're willing to take your pivoting isn't movement theory. I would really like to know your answer to solkan's point for example. And whether or not you think you can pivot vehicles at any time you like, during your opponent's turn perhaps... after all you're saying it doesn't count as movement at all right?

solkan wrote:And just to follow up on Gwar!'s statement, if pivoting doesn't count as movement then the following sequence is okay:

1. Rush rhino 12" forward and pivot to place rear hatch in desired position.
2. Disembark and move the transported unit.
3. Pivot the rhino to expose front armor.
(and repeat as desired if some part of a vehicle gets into an inconvenient position and models are trying to move around it...)

If pivoting isn't movement, step three is okay.

Why are people making straw man arguments without referencing the rules at all?
The disembarking rules specifically state that pivoting is not allowed, as I pointed out above. So do the immobilized rules, in the same table where the stunned rules do not.

Hymirl wrote:
Basically GWAR has done a sneakly little trick called 'reading the rulebook,' specificly he has read page 11 which states how the movement phase works. By which you pick a unit to move, move it and then pick the next unit. Being picked to move is non-appicable to a stunned vehicle because it can't move and therefore cannot take any action in the movement phase whether it would actually count as moving or not.

Please provide the relevant rules quotes, as I can't seem to put them together to support your position.

Hymirl wrote:
Secondly, the other big difficulty you have trying to claim your position is valid is how far you're willing to take your pivoting isn't movement theory. I would really like to know your answer to solkan's point for example. And whether or not you think you can pivot vehicles at any time you like, during your opponent's turn perhaps... after all you're saying it doesn't count as movement at all right?

Thanks for the useless hyperbole.

Hymirl wrote:Basically GWAR has done a sneakly little trick called 'reading the rulebook,'

Yeah, I do that a bit. Causes no end of trouble so it does.

Maxamato wrote:Hi folks,

Can a stunned vehicle pivot or turn in it's movement phase?
I list my arguments:
1) Pivoting is not considered a movement (BRB, page 57)
2) Crew stunned is mentoined as: The vehicle may not move until the end of the owner's next player turn.

Any opinions?

Thanks,
Maxamato

p.s. I did a search in this forum but results didn't lead me to an answer.

wow this thread made my head hurt.

I don't know how it can be any more clear in the rule book, they even give a fluffy example of why it can not operate in any fashion. No matter how you try and twist it Maxamato you can not pivot or do anything else with that vehicle. Honestly this thread feels more like a troll then a serious question.