Logan/Wolf Guard/Troops

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**Anpu42**

I nwas on another forum and this topic came up. I am just staling his question and have no claim to it at all.

I was reading a guy's blogspot earlier on tonight and noticed something: his claim that Wolf Guard MUST be taken as Troops if Logan is chosen as an IC.

I felt this warranted a closer inspection so I got out my trusty glasses and the Codex, turned to P.82 and found that it does indeed state that WGs count as Troops in any army that includes LG.

I decided that a deeper inspection was now required, so I hauled out the Space Marine, Dark Angels and Eldar Codices to compare the wording for units which can be used in FOC choices other than their standard ones. This involved the following:

1. Space Marines: The phrase allowing bikes to be used as a troops choice says "...[snip]...*may be taken as* Troops".

2. Dark Angels Ravenwing: Attack Squadrons may be treated as a Troops choice *as well as* a Fast Attack choice

3. Eldar: Wraithguard with a Spiritseer can be taken as *either* an Elites choice *or* a Troops choice.

4. Space Wolves: Wolf Guard units *count as* Troops when Logan is present.

Discussion time.

No.1 says that the bikes "may be taken as", so the player is not obliged to take them as a Troops Choice. However, if the squadrons fulfil the minimum model requirement, then individual squadrons may be taken as a Troops choice. There is no compulsion to take every single one as a Troops choice, although the player could do so if he wished.

So you could legally field a minimum of 39 bikes which would take up the entire Troops and Fast Attack slots in a standard FOC: 6x 5-man squads and 3x 3-man squads.

No.2 says that if Sammael is in the army then the Attack Squadrons have a choice of being Fast Attack as well as Troops. This means that you could have up to 9 Attack Squadrons in a Ravenwing Army list. This is very straightforward and clear. "Have Top Boss, can take shedloads of Attack Squadrons" makes total sense to me.

No.3 says that the Wraithguard can be fielded "either/or" regarding Elites or Troops choice. The only specification is that should the player wish to take a Wraithguard unit as a Troops choice, it must be accompanied by a Spiritseer. Otherwise non-accompanied units have to be Elites; accompanied ones get to choose.

No.4 is categoric. Wolf Guard count as Troops if Logan's in the army. There does not appear to be any option for them to be taken as Elites. Looks like we don't get 90-Wolf-Guard-Terminator armies, as far as I can tell.

So GW have given us 4 ways of swapping a unit from its usual little snug spot into a different one:

a) Marines: The "you can if you want to" set-up: as long as the unit fulfills the specific numerical requirement. You can still field in the original FOC slot too.
b) Dark Angels Ravenwing: The "everything goes". If The Boss is there, no either/or situation or restriction for the FOC slots.
c) Eldar: The "you can field in both FOC slots", but there must be a specific model present in the unit if choosing the Troops slot.
d) Space Wolves: The "No choice because of Logan's presence" situation. Troops slot only.

Sorry this has been a long post. I just thought it was worth bringing to people's attention about the Wolf Guard and Logan, because I hadn't read the box properly where the "count as" bit is written. Comparisons are often useful, so I thought I should show the different wording which GW has employed for the above examples, and how that wording affects the way the swapping of FOC slots are worked out for different armies.

The question is: have I understood things right? There certainly seems to be several ways of swapping FOC slots in the codices, with the wording making them all slightly different.

E.

**Gwar!**

I don't understand the problem...

Is he asking "Are Wolf Guard with Logan Troops ONLY and cannot be taken as elite?" If he is, then yes, they are Troops only.

Coincidently, this is covered in my FAQ. Download and read it nao

**lixulana**

well i believe if you read the note it says

"wolfguard counts as troops"

not

"wolfguard maybe taken as troops"

i misread it the first time i looked also so it doesnt change their force org, just makes them scoring units for 5th ed.

look at sternguard and pedro cantor for an example of how wolfguard work.

**Gwar!**

lixulana wrote:well i believe if you read the note it says

"wolfguard counts as troops"

not

"wolfguard maybe taken as troops"

i misread it the first time i looked also so it doesnt change their force org, just makes them scoring units for 5th ed.

"Count as" Troops mean "Count as Troops". Which means they take up Troops FoC selections.

**warboss**

lixulana wrote:well i believe if you read the note it says

"wolfguard counts as troops"

not

"wolfguard maybe taken as troops"

i misread it the first time i looked also so it doesnt change their force org, just makes them scoring units for 5th ed.

then we'd disagree. counting as troops means they take up a troops slot. if they wanted them "just make them scoring units for 5th ed" they would have worded it like the SM character (pedro?) that makes sternguard scoring. in fact, GW's little advertising blurb on the space wolves specifically state that you can make an all terminator army which isn't possible with your interpretation. either way, this has been argued to death.

lixulana wrote:
look at sternguard and pedro cantor for an example of how wolfguard work.

you ninja'd me with your edit. yes, look at pedro for an example of how wolfguard DOESN'T work as pedro's rule mentions ONLY SCORING and has NO MENTION of troops. Wolfguard ARE troops with logan which gives them scoring. GW writes some bad rules but this isn't one of them.

**lixulana**

i have to disagree,

"counts as" is not the same as "in place of" or "taken as"

wolfguard counts as troops = they are elite choice which can be a scoring unit, and could be placed on the field of battle following any rules for troops in the scenario.

wolguard taken as troops = they are a troops choice.

**nosferatu1001**

Counts as troops means they take up a Troops FOC slot

That is it, no other interpretation is valid.

**lixulana**

show me where "counts as" actually changes the under lying rules.

pistols count as an additional ccw but they are still a pistol, not a ccw that shoots.
skimmers moving fast count as obscured even though they are not actually obscured.
walkers taking damage rolls count as wounds for combat resolution, it doesnt make them wounds.
vulnerable to blasts each hit counts as two hits vs vehicles, you dont roll 2 to hit rolls.

the list goes on.

every example of counts as that i can find means they get the benefit of having the additional effect/rule even though they are not actually that rule.

**Gwar!**

Protip: Sternguard have a completely different rule. Try reading next time.

**lixulana**

Gwar! wrote:Protip: Sternguard have a completely different rule. Try reading next time.

i said similiar and yes i read the rule and i know what it means.

i was referencing the "COUNTS AS" part.

**Tri**

lixulana wrote:i have to disagree,

"counts as" is not the same as "in place of" or "taken as"

wolfguard counts as troops = they are elite choice which can be a scoring unit, and could be placed on the field of battle following any rules for troops in the scenario.

wolguard taken as troops = they are a troops choice.

So when you take whats his face and wolves count as troop you think they are still Fast but count as troop so are scoring?

Ha they both become troop so take up troop slots.

**Gwar!**

So, just to clarify:
lixulana = Wrong.
Gwar (and co.) = Correct.

**lixulana**

Tri wrote:
lixulana wrote:i have to disagree,

"counts as" is not the same as "in place of" or "taken as"

wolfguard counts as troops = they are elite choice which can be a scoring unit, and could be placed on the field of battle following any rules for troops in the scenario.

wolguard taken as troops = they are a troops choice.

So when you take whats his face and wolves count as troop you think they are still Fast but count as troop so are scoring?

Ha they both become troop so take up troop slots.

yes they use the fast attack slot, but count as troops for any special rules of the scenario (dawn of war etc).

show me where "counts as" actually changes the under lying rules.

pistols count as an additional ccw but they are still a pistol, not a ccw that shoots.
skimmers moving fast count as obscured even though they are not actually obscured.
walkers taking damage rolls count as wounds for combat resolution, it doesnt make them wounds.
vulnerable to blasts each hit counts as two hits vs vehicles, you dont roll 2 to hit rolls.

the list goes on.

every example of counts as that i can find means they get the benefit of having the additional effect/rule even though they are not actually that rule.

**nosferatu1001**

They Count as Troops and therefore take up the Troops FoC

**WarmasterScott**

I posted a video link on the SW underwhelming thread where GW confirmed with Logan, a SW player may make an entire WG army. They are troops with Logan.

**warboss**

liux, there are times where GW writes bad rules but this is not one of them. there is plenty of precedence where counts as is exactly what the common sense, simplest reading of the phrase is. Deathwing, ravenwing, SW wolf guard and wolf packs with the appropriate characters, half the freakin' ork codex depending on what hq you take. if GW wants to restrict the change, they can AND DO! see the wolf packs, they're troops but not scoring. see pedro's sternguard, they're scoring but still elites (not troops). if they want to make it even LESS restrictive, they can AND DO! see the deathwing which can be EITHER elite or troops (as opposed to the wolf guard who have to be troops with logan). what does it take to convince you? does GW have to print something that says "wolfguard ARE troops" because the word "as" is too complicated for you? here ya go:

**Alpharius**

Gwar! wrote:Protip: Sternguard have a completely different rule. Try reading next time.

I think in all future rules discussions we all need to lose the 'protip' and other such terms.

They only serve to aggravate and inflame what might otherwise stay as calm conversations.

Well, as calm as anything stays in YMDC.

**Gwar!**

Alpharius wrote:
Gwar! wrote:Protip: Sternguard have a completely different rule. Try reading next time.

I think in all future rules discussions we all need to lose the 'protip' and other such terms.

They only serve to aggravate and inflame what might otherwise stay as calm conversations.

Well, as calm as anything stays in YMDC.

Very well mighty overlord.

Sternguard have a completely different rule. Therefore, the effect is different from that given by Logan Grimnar.

**WarmasterScott**

There is nothing left to debate, the lofty GW alreay said with Logan they are troops.. the debate is over..

**Gwar!**

WarmasterScott wrote:There is nothing left to debate, the lofty GW alreay said with Logan they are troops.. the debate is over..

GW also said a Deff Dread with 4 DCCW has 5 attacks, which is wrong, so the debate is very much alive.

However, GW are right in the case of Wolf Guard, as that is what the rule says

**WarmasterScott**

Gwar! wrote:
WarmasterScott wrote:There is nothing left to debate, the lofty GW alreay said with Logan they are troops.. the debate is over..
GW also said a Deff Dread with 4 DCCW has 5 attacks, which is wrong, so the debate is very much alive.

However, GW are right in the case of Wolf Guard, as that is what the rule says

Then you might as well debate whether or not someone can build a commisar army because there isn't a point to debate a rule that has a ruling from the office. Questioning every rule after the fact seems pointless. You know like you just was cray and bitch sorta thing.

**jayjester**

Gwar! wrote:
WarmasterScott wrote:There is nothing left to debate, the lofty GW alreay said with Logan they are troops.. the debate is over..
GW also said a Deff Dread with 4 DCCW has 5 attacks, which is wrong, so the debate is very much alive.

However, GW are right in the case of Wolf Guard, as that is what the rule says

YOU ARE MY HERO!

And yes, I know that was in all caps, I meant it.

**apwill4765**

lixulana wrote:
lixulana wrote:well i believe if you read the note it says

"wolfguard counts as troops"

not

"wolfguard maybe taken as troops"

i misread it the first time i looked also so it doesnt change their force org, just makes them scoring units for 5th ed.

lixulana wrote:
look at sternguard and pedro cantor for an example of how wolfguard work.

Look up the rules for Wolf King as an example of how wolfguard work, then look up the fact that wolves can never be scoring, and tell me the point of that rule, if the wolves don't become troops. The wording is EXACTLY the same for Logan's Rule. Credit some dude on Youtube for that insight.

EDIT: Misquoted.

**Razerous**

If part of the rule wanted to mention scoring (aka somthing similiar to sternguard) it would have done so.

It didnt.

Counts as, taken as, use up that slot, must pick 2 but no more than 6. < You can take any of those meanings, they all mean the same thing.

**lixulana**

warboss wrote:liux, there are times where GW writes bad rules but this is not one of them. there is plenty of precedence where counts as is exactly what the common sense, simplest reading of the phrase is. Deathwing, ravenwing, SW wolf guard and wolf packs with the appropriate characters, half the freakin' ork codex depending on what hq you take. if GW wants to restrict the change, they can AND DO! see the wolf packs, they're troops but not scoring. see pedro's sternguard, they're scoring but still elites (not troops). if they want to make it even LESS restrictive, they can AND DO! see the deathwing which can be EITHER elite or troops (as opposed to the wolf guard who have to be troops with logan). what does it take to convince you? does GW have to print something that says "wolfguard ARE troops" because the word "as" is too complicated for you? here ya go:

the wording in the white dwarf is clear, the wording in the codex is not.

it doesnt change my view that "counts as" and "taken as" and "may be taken as" do not mean the same thing.

**kirsanth**

lixulana wrote:"taken as" and "may be taken as" do not mean the same thing.

Interesting.
I think I would really like to hear how that can be true. There are two extra words noting that this is allowed, but I do not see that as a change.

My rippers may be taken as troops, but they are not scoring. Pedro's sternguard may be scoring, but are not troops.
"Troops" is a FOC descriptor. A unit taken as Troops, counts as taking up a Troops slot in the FOC.
A unit that is or may be taken as Troops would take up a Troops slot and assuming they are not swarms/supernumerical/vehicle they are thus scoring. Not the other way around.

**Hollismason**

I realy cant wait for the space wolf codex faq to come out and they answer such pressing questions as " CAN I HAS LANDSPEEDER STORME?

**Aramoro**

I'm still a little unclear how Logan work with respect to the FoC. He says Wolfgaurd count as Troops, so they're an Elite Choice and a Troops choice? It doesn't say they stop being Elite Choices. So would taking 3 Squads of Wolf Guard fill your three Troops and your three Elite choices?

Aramoro

**lixulana**

"counts as" : they are still what ever they were foc wise, but they can be deployed as troops in scenarios, they may count as scoring if they dont have a special rule otherwise swarms are not scoring even if they are troops because they are a "swarm". see pistols a pistol counts as a additional ccw in assault but it is still a pistol and always is a pistol.

taken as : this replaces their foc with the new one. an elite unit that is taken as troops, means they can not be taken as an elite choice only as a troops.

maybe taken as : they have two slots on the FOC. see tyranid warriors can be elite or hq or both in the same list.

in this case the codex says "counts as" the white dwarf says "taken as" these are not the same.

Aramoro wrote:I'm still a little unclear how Logan work with respect to the FoC. He says Wolfgaurd count as Troops, so they're an Elite Choice and a Troops choice? It doesn't say they stop being Elite Choices. So would taking 3 Squads of Wolf Guard fill your three Troops and your three Elite choices?

Aramoro

in this case they cease to be elite and are only troops. so you can have 6 squads of them as troops, and 0 squads as elite.

**nosferatu1001**

No, they count as Troops - so they count as Troops only

For you to still take them as Elites it would have to say "they count as Troops OR Elites", which it doesn't