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HQ
-Ghazghkull: 225
-Mek (KFF): 85

Elites
-Kommandos x9 (2x Burna), Snikrot: 205
-Burnas x10: 150
-Burnas x10: 150

Troops
-Nobz (PK; PK, Ammo Grot; Big Choppa; Big Choppa, Ammo Grot, Pain Boy): 196
-Deff Dread (2x Skorcha): 85
-Boyz x29 (3x Big Shoota), Nob (PK): 215
-Boyz x29 (3x Big Shoota), Nob (PK): 215
-Gretchin x19, Runtherd: (67)

Heavy Support
-Killa Kans x3 (3x Grot Zooka): 135
-Killa Kans x3 (3x Grot Zooka): 135
-Killa Kans x3 (3x Grot Zooka): 135

1,998

Deployment is as follows when it can happen:

--------------------Deff Dread--------------------
---------Kans---------Kans---------Kans---------
------Burnas----------Nobz--------Burnas------
-------Boyz-------Boyz + mek-------Boyz-------

Ghazy can either go with Snikrot, or join the Nobz. Gretchin are reserves and walk on and take cover.

Once Ghazy comes in with Snikrot, or the orks are within 18 or so inches, they Waaagh! for the win.

I think you should play the list a few times and you'll discover a couple of glaring things...


1. Nobs don't belong on foot. They really don't. Also not where they fit into your deployment list.

2. Burnas don't belong on foot. When you fire a flamer, it may not touch a friendly model. That means that in order to use these guys, they're going to have to be up front leading the pack...meaning that they're going to be bullet sponges. 15 point bullet sponges. Either that, or they're going to be in the back hiding to try staying alive. Either way, with only 10 models per unit instead of 15, its going to be much easier to make them run away. A single unit shooting at one of the squads (even with you getting cover saves if they're in the rear) should be enough to cause a wound or two and a leadership check. How does it make you feel that a single bullet can cause you to run away like a simpering guardsman? Ghazghkull does not approve.

3. If you're really taking burna boys on foot, the skorchas on the deff dread are useless redundancy.

4. You don't have....anything....in the way of anti-tank, and 5th edition *IS* the world of mechanized lists. A kan-wall marches up the board getting 4+ obscured saves from a mek with a KFF; that *is* what you named your army. If you're going to have a kan-wall, then your burnas are useless and your nobs are out of place. Let them gooooooooooo. Fill out your kommando squad and either put in some rokkit buggies or a few squads of deffkoptas with twin-linked rokkits that can outflank and hit side/rear armor, or scout move 24" and hit side/rear armor; couple of buzzsaws too.

If ghaz goes with snkirot I don't think they can outflank then as its not passed onto the I.C I might be wrong on that one. Though, if ghaz goes with another unit then that unit moves at 3D6 (ghaz is I.C which gives 3D6 moving through cover).

Burnas are short range template weapons and power weapons. You want them in transports to get them into range a.s.a.p and into the fight. You don't want them foot slogging where they can get shot to ribbons. Personally I've never favour burnas as in assault most things will go before them (providing they don't charge) only benefit is mass templates. I think for 15 points they're over costed. Lootas are a far better choice.

Nobz don't like walking as Pepper said. They're a assault unit, they like close combat so get them there a.s.a.p with a transport.

With your deployment thats not going to work. The deff dread will be out of 6" KFF range. The burnas cannot shoot the flamers as the kanz are in the way, as Pepper said flamer templates cannot cover your own models. Your boyz will be shooting through there own units and will give a 4+ cover save to the enemy. The big mek needs to be in the centre so that KFF range is even, not at the back where it cannot reach front units.

mercer wrote:If ghaz goes with snkirot I don't think they can outflank then as its not passed onto the I.C I might be wrong on that one. Though, if ghaz goes with another unit then that unit moves at 3D6 (ghaz is I.C which gives 3D6 moving through cover).

Actually, this is an unclear rule, it works by RAW; if you extrapolate the meaning of Infiltrate to include Ambush (which you have no right to do, then it doesn't).

Specifically, Independent Characters do not benefit from special rules that a unit has. IE; kommandos have the special rule "Infiltrate" and can outflank. Putting Ghazghkull with a unit of kommandos doesn't give him the ability to use their special powers.

Snikrot's ambush rule is written differently. Ambush is not a unit special rule that the unit benefits from; IE, something that an attached character cannot get. Instead, Ambush is a special rule granted by this special character to his unit. If that unit includes an independent character, they benefit from the special rule being conferred to the unit by the special character as well.

Here's a great example:

If Ghazghkull is attached to a unit of nobs with a painboy, Ghazghkull does not get feel no pain - the FNP is explicitly described as a unit effect.

If Ghazghkull is attached to a unit of ANYTHING that also has Mad Dok attached to it, Ghazghkull gets feel no pain because its a conferred ability granted by a character, not a unit rule.


So in essence, you can put Ghazghkull into a unit of Kommandos and walk him onto the back table edge. You could also put a warboss on a bike with a unit of kommandos and walk them on the back table edge.

I didn't know snitrot had that special rule. I thought he could just outflank onto any table edge, but the rule doesn't say he has infiltrate, however he's a upgrade character for a unit which has infiltrate so snitrot has it too. I get what you mean though.

However, I think its possibly a more of this case. Its read that the unit has infiltrate, and snitrots special rule just always them to come in any table edge when outflanking. They are using infiltrate to outflank, but its snitrot which allows them to come on any table edge.

So, they are still outflanking. Just the owning player is allowed to chose the table edge. So because they're outflanking, which the infiltrate rule allows, then ghazgkull cannot outflank either.

Though the example with the painboy is different. When a I.C joins a unit, it becomes part of that unit. The painboy is giving the entire unit FnP, as the painboy's rules say HIS unit. If the nobz (painboy is with them) had feel no pain as standard then it would be lost. The painboy gives the special rule to the unit, which the I.C is part of. The nobz don't come with feel no pain in their entry, its a rule given by a special character.

Wow... I mean I am ALL for deffrolla's being used on tanks, and have pleaded my case so that my game group has agreed to it as well. But I gotta tell you, even my urge to win has to draw the cheapness line SOMEWHERE, and Ghaz coming in with Kommando's is it lol.

I've always read it and see it played to allow IC's to come in with and I think a few tournies have allowed it too. Besides, I think no matter what I can get my friends to let me try it at least once.

As for the advice on the list, I can totally see it and was contemplating dropping the nobz and having full burna units in a wagon, but that fits even less so I dropped it and posted my list here to get the finishing touches.

Anyway, now that I'm feeling even meaner and greener than usual after a lack of sleep I have a new possibly mean idea.

HQ
-Ghazghkull: 225
-Mek (KFF): 85

Elites
-Kommandos x13 (2x Burna), Snikrot: 255

Troops
-Biker Nobz x5 (PK, Bike; PK, Ammo Grot, Bike; Big Choppa, Bike; Big Choppa, Ammo Grot Bike; Pain Boy, Bike): 321
-Deff Dread (2x DCC): 105
-Boyz x29 (3x Big Shoota), Nob (PK): 215
-Boyz x29 (3x Big Shoota), Nob (PK): 215
Gretchin x11, Rutherd: 43

Fast Attack
Deffcopta x1 (TL Rokkits, PK) 70
Deffcopta x1 (TL Rokkits, PK) 70

Heavy Support
-Killa Kans x3 (3x Grot Zooka): 135
-Killa Kans x3 (3x Grot Zooka): 135
-Killa Kans x3 (3x Grot Zooka): 135

As you can see I cut the Burnas, gave my Nobz bikes, and added two Deffcoptas. In all this should really keep my oponent away from his board edges and bunched up for my main thrust.

EDIT: Reading the rules Snikrot's rules never mention Inflitrate the relevant part seems to be this:

"If the owning player chooses, Boss Snikrot and his unit may be held in Reserve. When Snikrot and his unit become available from Reserve, they may move on from any table edge."

The quote only mentiuons his unit, which Ghazy is part of and doesn't seem to require anything. Hell if only Snikrot were an IC he could give Ambush to biker Nobz.

Personally I would like to give that deff dread a friend. A second deff dread would make another target, and making each unit survive longer.

If you drop three killa kanz you can do this. See the kanz can hide the boyz, one unit of kanz per unit of boyz. Now your deff dread has a friend.

I would drop the gretchin probably for another deffkopter. I doubt they will last long. You do have enough troops and could make those nob bikers bigger too, possibly.

Dropping the Gretchin could work, but at only 44 points left it wouldn't get me anything worthwhile as I need one more point for a Nob biker and can't do that without cutting a big Choppa if I want them all unique. Though another regular nob may be better than a nob with Choppa and a Gretchin mob I think I'll test as is first.

Also, I think the Kanz and Nobz will eat fire before the Dread does. They're way scarier than he is even is he is a nasty SoB.

EDIT: Besides rules issues does everybody else think a Flank Marching Ghazghkull is the best thing ever?

mercer wrote:I didn't know snitrot had that special rule. I thought he could just outflank onto any table edge, but the rule doesn't say he has infiltrate, however he's a upgrade character for a unit which has infiltrate so snitrot has it too. I get what you mean though.

However, I think its possibly a more of this case. Its read that the unit has infiltrate, and snitrots special rule just always them to come in any table edge when outflanking. They are using infiltrate to outflank, but its snitrot which allows them to come on any table edge.

So, they are still outflanking. Just the owning player is allowed to chose the table edge. So because they're outflanking, which the infiltrate rule allows, then ghazgkull cannot outflank either.

Though the example with the painboy is different. When a I.C joins a unit, it becomes part of that unit. The painboy is giving the entire unit FnP, as the painboy's rules say HIS unit. If the nobz (painboy is with them) had feel no pain as standard then it would be lost. The painboy gives the special rule to the unit, which the I.C is part of. The nobz don't come with feel no pain in their entry, its a rule given by a special character.

Not to beat a dead horse....but the problem here is that you're willfully interpreting a codex entry. Instead of reading it at face value and accepting it, you're interpreting the Ambush to mean something other than what it says. Outflanking has nothing to do with coming on the back table edge. There is no such thing as outflanking onto the back table edge; in fact, the very meaning FLANK means one side or the other. You can't outflank to the rear just like you can't frontal assault from the rear, or tunnel up from the ground in flanking maneuver.

To make it perfectly clear, GW even gave it its own special rule that specifically is NOT outflanking. They created a special rule, with its own conditions and it isn't my job or yours to interpret that rule to mean something other than what it says.
--------------------------

For practical purposes, let me try an analogy involving fenced in areas.

1. If a unit of kommandos is inside a fenced in area that says "Kommandos only!" and benefits from a special benefit...no one else can get it. If Ghazghkull comes along the fenced in area and wants in, he can break down the fence to get in, but that ruins it for everyone else.

2. If a unit of kommandos is not inside a fenced in area, and Ghazghkull comes along and joins them, they're happy as a peach. No special benefits. If Snikrot comes along with a mobile fence and encloses all of them in it....they're all inside the fence now getting his special rule.

Remember that the codex entries supercede the 40k rulebook. What actually happens if Ghazghkull joins Snikrot's unit is that the entire unit loses its infiltrate ability (squad ability) but gains the Ambush ability (due to Snikrot).

Norade wrote:HQ
-Ghazghkull: 225
-Mek (KFF): 85

Elites
-Kommandos x9 (2x Burna), Snikrot: 205
-Burnas x10: 150
-Burnas x10: 150

Troops
-Nobz (PK; PK, Ammo Grot; Big Choppa; Big Choppa, Ammo Grot, Pain Boy): 196
-Deff Dread (2x Skorcha): 85
-Boyz x29 (3x Big Shoota), Nob (PK): 215
-Boyz x29 (3x Big Shoota), Nob (PK): 215
-Gretchin x19, Runtherd: (67)

Heavy Support
-Killa Kans x3 (3x Grot Zooka): 135
-Killa Kans x3 (3x Grot Zooka): 135
-Killa Kans x3 (3x Grot Zooka): 135

1,998

I think Ghaz is a little out of place on this list. For a true, TRUE kan wall list, I'd recommend taking two big meks and running two deff dreads as troops, as well as the 9 kans. This will give you a truly massive wall of kanz and dreads marching forward with the kustom force field deflecting a stupid amount of shots.

Nobs/Burnas as well don't really fit in this list. I know the burnas go with the mek theme, but nobs and burnas only really shine when mobilized to make the most use of their devestating offense. I don't think it's worth running all of those grotzookas. I would recommend dropping the skorchas on the dreads and gear them fully for combat.

As far as flame templates are concerned, I'd recommend running some skorcha traks. They do the job best for an extremely efficient point cost.

The second list better, but there seem to be something missing.

I think you need more boyz. 60 isn't alot for an Ork list and it always seem that Kan Lists have alot of boyz.

SmoovKriminal wrote:

Norade wrote:HQ
-Ghazghkull: 225
-Mek (KFF): 85

Elites
-Kommandos x9 (2x Burna), Snikrot: 205
-Burnas x10: 150
-Burnas x10: 150

Troops
-Nobz (PK; PK, Ammo Grot; Big Choppa; Big Choppa, Ammo Grot, Pain Boy): 196
-Deff Dread (2x Skorcha): 85
-Boyz x29 (3x Big Shoota), Nob (PK): 215
-Boyz x29 (3x Big Shoota), Nob (PK): 215
-Gretchin x19, Runtherd: (67)

Heavy Support
-Killa Kans x3 (3x Grot Zooka): 135
-Killa Kans x3 (3x Grot Zooka): 135
-Killa Kans x3 (3x Grot Zooka): 135

1,998

I think Ghaz is a little out of place on this list. For a true, TRUE kan wall list, I'd recommend taking two big meks and running two deff dreads as troops, as well as the 9 kans. This will give you a truly massive wall of kanz and dreads marching forward with the kustom force field deflecting a stupid amount of shots.

Nobs/Burnas as well don't really fit in this list. I know the burnas go with the mek theme, but nobs and burnas only really shine when mobilized to make the most use of their devestating offense. I don't think it's worth running all of those grotzookas. I would recommend dropping the skorchas on the dreads and gear them fully for combat.

As far as flame templates are concerned, I'd recommend running some skorcha traks. They do the job best for an extremely efficient point cost.

Check my newer list.

However Ghaz + Ambush = Disrupted Army.
Ghaz + Waaagh! = Hurt Army
Abush + Waaagh! = Horribly Defeated Army

That's the theory at least.

Lord-Loss wrote:The second list better, but there seem to be something missing.

I think you need more boyz. 60 isn't alot for an Ork list and it always seem that Kan Lists have alot of boyz.

I know, I do however have scoring Nob 's on Bikes abusing wound allocation and I intend to attempt to table people with this list.

You really have not dealt with Frustration until you have had 3 Squads of Nobz riding across the battlefield in a Battlewagon with 9 Cans running behind them.

Pepper...

Yes Ghaz would get FNP being attached to the unit. The painboy MODEL gives the entire unit FNP. When attached, the IC is considered part of that unit. This is basic rules 101.

Now if an IC attaches to a squad that just has FNP built into them (plague marines for example), that IC doesn't get that ability.

Now that being said, you cannot attach an IC to a kommando squad and then outflank or use Snikrot's ability as you CANNOT attach to a squad before coming into play. They are considered INDEPENDENT until on the board!

Flyin, the painboy is a nob upgrade, meaning its build into the unit. >< Read the codex.

And when an IC attaches to the unit, he is considered part of it...and can use FNP.

Flyinmiata, perhaps you should go over to YMDC and pose that question; you'll get answered in very short order with a thunderous round of "NO!"

The IC rules explicitly tell you that unless the rule for the unit explicitly mentions the character, no joy.

Seriously, head over to YMDC and post the question; I'll send you internet cookies if I'm wrong.

Meh, I'm going to Snikrot in Ghaz as my friends have said that we're allowing both that and Deff Rollas.

Dashofpepper wrote:Flyinmiata, perhaps you should go over to YMDC and pose that question; you'll get answered in very short order with a thunderous round of "NO!"

The IC rules explicitly tell you that unless the rule for the unit explicitly mentions the character, no joy.

Seriously, head over to YMDC and post the question; I'll send you internet cookies if I'm wrong.

Oy Dash, you're making my head hurt. Both Snikrot and Painboy are a unit upgrade, both add a special rule to their unit, and your saying that one applies and the other doesn't? I mean I'm used to warhammer rules wrangling defying all common sense, but it's the same scenario and wording.

Kroot Loops wrote:

Oy Dash, you're making my head hurt. Both Snikrot and Painboy are a unit upgrade, both add a special rule to their unit, and your saying that one applies and the other doesn't? I mean I'm used to warhammer rules wrangling defying all common sense, but it's the same scenario and wording.

The painboy is a unit upgrade. You take a 10 point nob, add 30 points to it, and it becomes a painboy.

Snikrot is NOT a unit upgrade. You do NOT take a 10 point kommando, add some points to it and end up with Snikrot. It says that instead of using an upgrade character, you may choose to lead a squad with Boss Snikrot. Don't confuse the two.

So you're saying instead of 14 kommandos and a nob, you can take 15 kommandos and snikrot?

No, seeing as he is not an IC and the Kommando mob can't rise above 15 models unless by the inclusion of an IC.