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Let me know what you think, I decided on taking 3 scoring units instead of fire dragons, which will only prove useful in play testing or not.

Farseer - doom, fortune, SS, ROWarding: 145
Autarch - mandiblasters, power weapon: 90

Striking scorpions 9 – exarch, scorpion claw: 171
-wave serpent – TL shuriken cannon, SS: 110

Storm guardians 10 + 1 – warlock, 2x flamer, destructor: 127
-wave serpent – TL BL, SS: 145
Storm guardians 10 + 1 – 2x flamer: 92
-wave serpent – TL BL, SS: 145
Dire avengers 5
-Falcon – EML, SS, Holofields: 180

Fire prism – 115
Fire prism - 115

Total: 1494

Farseer is ok.
Autarch: meh: He's with the Scorpions? Why not get a fusion gun? Str 3 power weapon (even with Doom) is underwhelming.
I don't think you can outflank if the Autarch is with them.
Which is generally the point of Scorpions on a Serpent...

Storm Guardians look ok, though the second one is a sad panda for skipping out on the hvy flamer, the guy prob. doing most of the work.

DAVU and falcon are meh.
Prisms are ok.

I think the loss of fire dragons is huge for a list like this.
I think the scorpions take a bit out of the list too much.

Drop the WS for scorpions and let them infiltrate note that the autarch cannot infiltrate with the scorpins. Id either drop the Autarch or put him with the storm guardians. Id then drop the falcon, take a WS with fire drags in and expand DA to 10 men, they can sit on home objective. If all this takes you over 1500 drop the autarch.

Eldar Own wrote:Drop the WS for scorpions and let them infiltrate note that the autarch cannot infiltrate with the scorpins. Id either drop the Autarch or put him with the storm guardians. Id then drop the falcon, take a WS with fire drags in and expand DA to 10 men, they can sit on home objective. If all this takes you over 1500 drop the autarch.

i dont want to run any footsloggers in my mech list. if were not playing an objective game having footsloggin DA they will get gunned down in no time. The point of the list is to have everyone in tanks.

And your right the autarch cant outflank with scorps, but I also didnt give them that ability, saving me 20 points.

I also had to lose to the warlock + destructor to get holo-fields on the DAVU.

The option to drop DAVU and get wave serpent + 5 fire dragons is an option, but then my list is almost entirely focused on AT and anti mech, and could be in trouble facing hordes.

Ok dont include footsloggers.

If your worried about horde, keep the scorps also get 10 DA in a WS with bladestorm, this way they can churn out 20 shots per turn, and if you need a unit killing quick you can 30.

Dragons are kind of a must. Not a big fan of bright lances and I don't really see them doing as good a job as dragons against AV 14 so it seems to me you're in need of AT

Eldar Own wrote:Ok dont include footsloggers.

If your worried about horde, keep the scorps also get 10 DA in a WS with bladestorm, this way they can churn out 20 shots per turn, and if you need a unit killing quick you can 30.

so replace my DAVU with 10 DA in a serp? not sure how id find the points for that, a stripped down waveserpent with 10 DA is 265 points whereas dropping the DAVU is only 240 points, but then I lost 3 AT weapons, and need to come up with 20 points somewhere else somehow.

SpringLevel wrote:Dragons are kind of a must. Not a big fan of bright lances and I don't really see them doing as good a job as dragons against AV 14 so it seems to me you're in need of AT

What do you suggest dropping to get fire dragons in a serpent? 5 fire dragons + stripped down serpent is 170 points, which means I could drop DAVU, and have 70 points left for something else, maybe a tiny fragile 3 man bike squad

Dropthe stones and fortune on your farseer as well, thats another 45 pts. But most importantly, the 90pts spent on the autarch is pretty much wasted

tedurur wrote:Dropthe stones and fortune on your farseer as well, thats another 45 pts. But most importantly, the 90pts spent on the autarch is pretty much wasted

really? fortune is quite usefull........and the autarch gives me 5 power weapon attacks and +1 on reserves when using an all mech list.

Drop both Farseer and Autarch. Add Eldrad.

Drop Scorpions. Add Fire Dragons.

Add Star Engines to Falcon. Also, have Eldrad ride in Falcon with Avengers.

Add Warlock with Enhance or Destructor to Storm Guardians.

Replace weapons on all Wave Serpents with Scatterlasers.

Old Man Ultramarine wrote:Drop both Farseer and Autarch. Add Eldrad.

Drop Scorpions. Add Fire Dragons.

Add Star Engines to Falcon. Also, have Eldrad ride in Falcon with Avengers.

Add Warlock with Enhance or Destructor to Storm Guardians.

Replace weapons on all Wave Serpents with Scatterlasers.

get rid of my only CC unit? seriously?

thanks for the advice, but I dont think I will be doing any of that, definatly need a CC unit, and Eldrad compared to a farseer & autarch is arguably not better, star engines are useless......and I wish i could put the warlock with destrutor in that I would use, but i will be keeping my BL on my wave serpents for AT

You have a mech list.

Why do you think you need a HtH squad? Scorpions fail against dedicated HtH squads that opponent will be throwing down. Yes they kill Orks and Guardsmen, but SM and Termies will pummel them.

Brightlances stink! Scatterlaser is a 4 shot strength 6 weapon. This weapon is a fine double duty weapon, enough shots to drop hordes and high enough strength to punch out vehicles (short of LR and LRBT).

Please read Eldrad. He allows some pregame tricks and can fortune x2 vehicles that move flat out. Rerollable 4+ against something that happens to pen. your vehicles. You will learn soon enough the power of Eldrad. Wishing you could just use another psychic power per turn.

Star Engines useless? Have you used them? 12" of movement in shooting phase is great. Your opponent now has to worry about 36" threat range or end game movement. Besides if you fortune a vehicle and move flat out, you are not firing anyways.

You realize you are playing mech right? Your goal should be to not voluntarily come out of your vehicles.

Fire Dragons should be your dedicated anti-tank. Their WS then becomes a tank shocker or horde control.

You may want to holofield your prisms. If you can find spare points.

My advice is sound and tested.

Old Man Ultramarine wrote:You have a mech list.

Why do you think you need a HtH squad? Scorpions fail against dedicated HtH squads that opponent will be throwing down. Yes they kill Orks and Guardsmen, but SM and Termies will pummel them.

Brightlances stink! Scatterlaser is a 4 shot strength 6 weapon. This weapon is a fine double duty weapon, enough shots to drop hordes and high enough strength to punch out vehicles (short of LR and LRBT).

Please read Eldrad. He allows some pregame tricks and can fortune x2 vehicles that move flat out. Rerollable 4+ against something that happens to pen. your vehicles. You will learn soon enough the power of Eldrad. Wishing you could just use another psychic power per turn.

Star Engines useless? Have you used them? 12" of movement in shooting phase is great. Your opponent now has to worry about 36" threat range or end game movement. Besides if you fortune a vehicle and move flat out, you are not firing anyways.

You realize you are playing mech right? Your goal should be to not voluntarily come out of your vehicles.

Fire Dragons should be your dedicated anti-tank. Their WS then becomes a tank shocker or horde control.

You may want to holofield your prisms. If you can find spare points.

My advice is sound and tested.

I definatly see your point, ive posted this list on other sites and got completley polar opposite feedback than this though. I originally had eldrad in my list and was told to drop him. Im not sure I 100% agree with dropping a CC unit all together, eventually I will need to get out my transport, espeically if its anihilation and i need to kill things. Plus i dont want to just hide in tanks for 5 turns, I would like to kill stuff. How would you reshape this list?

drop DAVU + falcon, upgrade to eldrad, drop autarch, change weapons to SL (which again im not sure about, since if my FD die then im screwed against LR)

Ok, the advice on other boards has to be a bit questionable.

The dragons come out and melt a LR. Then they are usually shot off, but they did their job.

I know the argument for dropping Eldrad. "everyone uses him", but he is superior to any other HQ. Yes, an Autarch will help if you reserve army.

On wanting to kill opponent. Trust me TL-Scatterlaser on Serpents kill. You have x3 WS, x2 FP and x1 Falcon. That's pretty shooty. Do you have Dire Avengers?

I guess you need to play with your own interests in mind. You have and like the scorpions, by all means try them.

On changing list... Are you a tourney or casual player? What are the popular armies in your area? What do you most often play against? What models do you own?

This info will help us help you.

Old Man Ultramarine wrote:Ok, the advice on other boards has to be a bit questionable.

The dragons come out and melt a LR. Then they are usually shot off, but they did their job.

I know the argument for dropping Eldrad. "everyone uses him", but he is superior to any other HQ. Yes, an Autarch will help if you reserve army.

On wanting to kill opponent. Trust me TL-Scatterlaser on Serpents kill. You have x3 WS, x2 FP and x1 Falcon. That's pretty shooty. Do you have Dire Avengers?

I guess you need to play with your own interests in mind. You have and like the scorpions, by all means try them.

On changing list... Are you a tourney or casual player? What are the popular armies in your area? What do you most often play against? What models do you own?

This info will help us help you.

Currently casual play, would like to get more serious though, so semi-tourny build.

Its not so much I like scorpions, I just cringe at the thought of loosing a CC unit.

Armies in my area is everything (seriously, pretty varied meta, no dominant army), maybe slightly more orks and space marines.

I own quite a bit of models, im currently investing in the 2x fire prism and 1x falcon to get my army full mech, but I own everything else listed and some other units which i run in my hybrid list (avatar, 2x wraithlord, 10x dire avengers, 10x guardians, and the 3x wave serpents)

Run the scatterlasers. Bladestorming Avengers in WS. One they fire next they climb in WS and find new target.

What is one HtH unit going to do, seriously? It will get multicharged right off the table.

Concentrate on being shooty mech. Eldrad would let you guide one of those Prisms.

Picture this. Eldrad fortunes his Falcon, guides Prism, fortunes another Serpent. Safe and accurate, ftw!

It simple and boring. Then you build off that.

Old Man Ultramarine wrote:Run the scatterlasers. Bladestorming Avengers in WS. One they fire next they climb in WS and find new target.

What is one HtH unit going to do, seriously? It will get multicharged right off the table.

Concentrate on being shooty mech. Eldrad would let you guide one of those Prisms.

Picture this. Eldrad fortunes his Falcon, guides Prism, fortunes another Serpent. Safe and accurate, ftw!

It simple and boring. Then you build off that.

While I do want to play mech for its speed and safety, I dont want to play shooty mech. Which I think is the difference here, I want my units inside my tanks to actually do something. And your above suggestion of fortune falcon, waveserpent, and guide a fireprism. you realize all those powers are 6" range? and i would have to have those 3 tanks bundled together to do that act.

That being said im not going to drop scorpions lol, I just cant lose my only CC unit. I will consider Eldrad, and possibly getting fire dragons in here. And probably the only way I could do those things is dropping DAVU and having only 2 scoring units.

Something like:

Eldrad: 210

10 Striking scorpions - scorpions claw, stalker, exarch: 192
-Wave serpent - shuriken cannon, SS: 110
6 Fire dragons: 96
-Wave serpent - shuriken cannon, SS: 110

10 + 1 Storm guardians - 2x flamer, warlock w/destructor: 127
-Wave serpent: BL, SS: 145
10 + 1 Storm guardians - 2x flamer, warlock w/destructor: 127
-Wave serpent: BL, SS: 145

Fire prism: 115
Fire prism: 115

Total: 1492

And if I want to run an Autarch for reserve denial strategy and the fact it will give me 6 power weapon attacks on the charge, I could downgrade eldrad to regular seer saving 65 points and dropping a scorpion + stalker making it 86 points, plus the remaining 8 points I have already makes its 94 points, putting me at 1496.


OR I could do this:

Farseer - doom, fortune, SS, ROWarding: 145
Autarch - power weapon, fusion gun: 90

Fire dragons 5: 80
Striking scorpions 10 – exarch, scorpion claw: 187
-wave serpent – TL shuriken cannon, SS: 110

Storm guardians 10 + 1 – 2x flamer: 92
-wave serpent – TL BL, SS: 145
Storm guardians 10 + 1 – 2x flamer: 92
-wave serpent – TL BL, SS: 145

Falcon – EML, SS, Holofields: 180
Fire prism – 115
Fire prism - 115

1495

Fire dragons + autarch ride in falcon, mind you I think this is mildly overkill on AT having 2 TL BL, pulse laser, EML, 5 fire dragons + autarch. and i lsot both my heavy flamers in the process

You realize you have x3 HtH units, all of them subpar in the grand scheme of things.

You should be doing DA's with bladestorm. This allows you to be aggro with your troopers.

I do agree with old man on this last one. There are just too many things that can instagib a T3 character who's on his own and even with doom you can't pin much hope on a single S3 power weapon. Plus, that's another kill point you're giving up if he comes against something nasty, which will also eat the scorpions and guardians for lunch.

Personally, I really love scorpions and they've served me well in just about every circumstance. But is taking an autarch worth it when the reserve roll for them is the ONLY roll he'll be helping with the 'master strategist'?

Even if you give guardians warlock support/make them fearless via avatar/charge them they still die, and in droves. T3 with a 5+ dies at the hands of a single marine combat squad.

I really like the list with the fire dragons, because nothing melts tanks as well as that. You'll have several bright lances, but at BS3 they won't hit reliably and melta is still better when it's within range in my experience.

I really would drop the autarch because he just doesn't seem to really fit in anywhere and those points could be used on something else that could really bolster the force.

Also, listen to the people who say that twin linked scatterlasers are amazing. Trust me, having 4 36" shots @ S6 is AMAZING. A lot more so than 3 bright lances. They reliably put wounds on characters, kill hordes easily, and do very well against monstrous creatures by virtue of their S. Rerolling 4 dice is great, especially if the unit they're shooting at is doomed... Personally, I'd take that over 5 S3 power weapon hits anyday, mainly because you're going mech and the point of mech is to be mobile and difficult to pin down.

It's really coming along and while it may not be a common list I think the core is solid--just needs a little tweaking.

Storm guardians cause more wounds than a blade storming DA squad. They should not be in HtH, they should be used for a template fest. That said, I usually prefer a mix of DAs and Stormies since the DAs can be used at some distance.

Drop the autarch. It wouldn't help much.
If you're already taking a serpent for the scorpions why not take banshees instead? Sure they're fragile but that's what the serpent is there for, plus 30 power weapon attacks plus doom is very killy

Have to agree about the Storm Guardians, the only reason I could see for using them is if they were the models you had Dire Avengers work much better in Mech list because you can Fish of Fury with them out of the WS, especially if you have Bladestorm! Storm Guardians are hardly going to make themselves useful against any HtH squad.
I'd definatly drop the Autarch, again his attacks are alright but against any squad their power fist is going against him and probably wiping him out. That's a heavy instant loss for some power weapon attacks.
If you are squeezing in Fire Dragons (which I definatly suggest) then you can swap some of those Bright Lances off Serpents. I find them a little overcosted and you can switch to Scatter Lasers which cope with Light Armour much better.
Shame you can't find points for HF on the Prisms as well. They double the survivability of the vehicles for 35pts.

No need for HF on the prism, it's a lot of points just keep them far and safe

considered everyones advice so far, just not convinced on anything yet, still like the list ive put together. I find dire avengers "okay" at best. they cost 30 points more than storm guardians, and IMO arent better. storm guardian with warlock is putting down 3 templates autohitting. And besides that my troops are meant to stay INSIDE my tanks for as long as possible.

As for dropping the autarch, im only taking him for resver roll and he replaces my lost scorpion with 6 power weapon attacks, never hurt IF I did drop him, I wouldnt have the points for a fire dragon transport anywho....would have to find 100 points somewhere, which would mean severly altering the list (probably dropping a troop choice, which I dont want to really do).

EDIT: here is something I could do to run fire dragons and 3 troops:

Farseer - doom: 80

Strikin scorpions 9 - exarch, claw: 171
-Wave serpent - TL Shuriken cannn, SS: 110
Fire dragons 5: 80
-Wave serpent - TL Shuriken cannn, SS: 110

Storm guardians 10 - 2x flamer: 92
-Wave serpent - TL BL, SS: 145
Storm guardians 10 - 2x flamer: 92
-Wave serpent - TL BL, SS: 145
Dire avengers 5: 60

Falcon - EML, HF, SS: 180
Fire prism: 115
Fire prism: 115

Total: 1500

Farseer with guide in with your DA falcon will give you a lot more mileage.

Storm Guardians looks a LOT better on paper. Yes, you do get 3 flamer templates but you need to take into account how your going to shoot those flamers after getting out of the tank. Plus guardian leadership, armor, and CC is terrible making storm guardians a pretty poor choice now-a-days. if you want to stay in the tanks with your troop choices then take 5 DA per serpent and use your points elsewhere.

BlueDagger wrote:Farseer with guide in with your DA falcon will give you a lot more mileage.

Storm Guardians looks a LOT better on paper. Yes, you do get 3 flamer templates but you need to take into account how your going to shoot those flamers after getting out of the tank. Plus guardian leadership, armor, and CC is terrible making storm guardians a pretty poor choice now-a-days. if you want to stay in the tanks with your troop choices then take 5 DA per serpent and use your points elsewhere.

i actually use storm guardians now and like them a lot. I find they do the job their ment to do. I actually am not fond of dire avengers, I think they are overhyped unit. They die just as easily as my guardians do and cost 50% more.

You know, I've been reading through this entire thread and it seems like you really don't want any advice except to change out the units that don't make up the core of your army. Otherwise you appear to be just 'sticking to your guns' with what you've already decided.

I don't know a single person who has enjoyed using storm guardians in serpents or has even thought of them as a viable option. Who exactly are you playing against and at what points levels are those games happening? I think that might shed a lot more light on why you seem to be sticking to units the rest of us don't think are worth taking.

I may play Storm Guardians.

This list makes little sense to me, but OP is doing it on his own terms.

Grunt_For_Christ wrote:You know, I've been reading through this entire thread and it seems like you really don't want any advice except to change out the units that don't make up the core of your army. Otherwise you appear to be just 'sticking to your guns' with what you've already decided.

I don't know a single person who has enjoyed using storm guardians in serpents or has even thought of them as a viable option. Who exactly are you playing against and at what points levels are those games happening? I think that might shed a lot more light on why you seem to be sticking to units the rest of us don't think are worth taking.

well firstly, a bladestorming DA unit only on average kills 3 marines out of a 10 man squad (no guide or doom)

storm guardians with flamers, 1.65 dead marines from 2 regular flamers hitting 5 marines each (a fair hit number guestimate), another 1 marine from heavy flamer hitting 5 marines. so in total about 3 marines dead from 3 flamers. not including the 8 pistols I have to shoot, and then assaulting the rest.

all at 30 points less than DA......

see how I dont see your point about DA? now obviously im making a fair guess with hitting 5 marines per flamer in a 10 man squad, but thats not impossible and happens a lot for me. and when your not playing smurfs, flamers ignore cover.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Old Man Ultramarine wrote:I may play Storm Guardians.

This list makes little sense to me, but OP is doing it on his own terms.

which part of the list doesnt make sense? the troop choices? or by not taking fire dragons? or because I take an assault unit (lol, which I know you didnt like, although I read your Ard boyz list and you run a full council, so you must see the benefit of assault units)

Mafty wrote:

Grunt_For_Christ wrote:You know, I've been reading through this entire thread and it seems like you really don't want any advice except to change out the units that don't make up the core of your army. Otherwise you appear to be just 'sticking to your guns' with what you've already decided.

I don't know a single person who has enjoyed using storm guardians in serpents or has even thought of them as a viable option. Who exactly are you playing against and at what points levels are those games happening? I think that might shed a lot more light on why you seem to be sticking to units the rest of us don't think are worth taking.

well firstly, a bladestorming DA unit only on average kills 3 marines out of a 10 man squad (no guide or doom)

storm guardians with flamers, 1.65 dead marines from 2 regular flamers hitting 5 marines each (a fair hit number guestimate), another 1 marine from heavy flamer hitting 5 marines. so in total about 3 marines dead from 3 flamers. not including the 8 pistols I have to shoot, and then assaulting the rest.

all at 30 points less than DA......

see how I dont see your point about DA? now obviously im making a fair guess with hitting 5 marines per flamer in a 10 man squad, but thats not impossible and happens a lot for me. and when your not playing smurfs, flamers ignore cover.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Old Man Ultramarine wrote:I may play Storm Guardians.

This list makes little sense to me, but OP is doing it on his own terms.

which part of the list doesnt make sense? the troop choices? or by not taking fire dragons? or because I take an assault unit (lol, which I know you didnt like, although I read your Ard boyz list and you run a full council, so you must see the benefit of assault units)

...

I guess you just don't see it. Let me ask the questions again because you still haven't given us a single bit of actual evidence:

#1. Who are you playing against where this list works so well

#2. What points limit are you working with

I feel like you really don't play with these guys at all and are just theorizing the whole list in your head without having much of any real experience with them.