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Hi all,
New player, and yes I do play Ultramarines, but this because of exhaustive research and match with my playstyle.
This question came up today.

so on page 84 of the SM Codex : Gauntlets of Ultramar: These are a matched pair of power fists. They also contain intergrated boltersthat can be fired with the following profile.

So the question is, Does Calgar get the + attack for matched weapons?

I say yes.

No, he doesn't, because he also has a Power Weapon, so must choose which special weapon to use, thus unable to claim the bonus attack, as per Page 42 of the BRB.

Sadly however, some people think otherwise.

Also, welcome to a massive trainwreck
This has been debated to the hills and back. Welcome to Dakka and all, but this thread ain't gonna end well.

Oh feth, here we go again

Ill drop in with yes, he does, simply due to the rules wording on this one.


Also, welcome to the storm you just made

JD21290 wrote:Oh feth, here we go again

Ill drop in with yes, he does, simply due to the rules wording on this one.


Also, welcome to the s***storm you just made

The answer is no actually!

By Russ! Here we go again!

So I chose a really good topic for my first post? I figured this would be better than an introduction post

KidSquid wrote:So I chose a really good topic for my first post? I figured this would be better than an introduction post

The only way you could have made it worse is if you had asked about WBB vs Sweeping Advance and Deffrollas Ramming as well

For a slightly less lopsided answer:

There are two schools of thought here:
1: The rules for having multiple special close combat weapons apply to the weapons the model is weilding at that time... so Calgar can choose to use the fists for the bonus attack, or the power sword to strike at Initiative.

Or

2: The rules for having multiple special close combat weapons apply to the weapons the model is carrying, and so Calgar can never claim the +1, as he has two different SCCW's, and the rules for having 2 different SCCW's say that such models never gain the bonus attack.



I lean more towards the first interpretation, not because I feel it's any more RAW, but because it's the interpretation that makes the most sense. YMMV.

Couldn't you declare that Calgar is only using the Gauntlets at the beginning of the game?

And I lean more towards the 2nd interpretation, because it is much more RAW

Ok, Ok, I'll behave!

-Goes back Under Bridge-

In all fairness, the 2nd is the less beneficial, so I feel it is only fair for both sides to use it as a default unless they agree otherwise.

Gwar! wrote:No, he doesn't, because he also has a Power Weapon, so must choose which special weapon to use, thus unable to claim the bonus attack, as per Page 42 of the BRB.

You know, I think people should type out the rule section they are quoting rather than just stating a proposition or page #...mostly because it would make GWAR! do more work in earning his 10,000+++ post count

KidSquid wrote:Couldn't you declare that Calgar is only using the Gauntlets at the beginning of the game?

No, because his rules say he has a Power Sword, so he has it. End of Discussion.

wyomingfox wrote:

Gwar! wrote:No, he doesn't, because he also has a Power Weapon, so must choose which special weapon to use, thus unable to claim the bonus attack, as per Page 42 of the BRB.

You know, I think people should type out the rule section they are quoting rather than just stating a proposition or page #...mostly because it would make GWAR! do more work in earning his 10,000+++ post count

Yes, but then the Games Workshop Attack Pandas would stop killing off Blood Bowl and start attacking Dakkadakka!

Gwar! wrote:Yes, but then the Games Workshop Attack Pandas would stop killing off Blood Bowl and start attacking Dakkadakka!

Bahh! Rules debates are a perfectly fine "fair use" application...your just looking for excuses


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Gwar! wrote:And I lean more towards the 2nd interpretation, because it is much more RAW

In all fairness, the 2nd is the less beneficial, so I feel it is only fair for both sides to use it as a default unless they agree otherwise.

Me thinks that would hose the Evisor as well since he has a nuero guantlet and a PW.

I say he does, since it says in the rulebook if he has two then he gets the +1 attack, however he looses the Power sword attack
I say you have to state the way it will work at the before hand
I say you have to ask the Tourny Rulemaster how he says it works

I say That Necrons get Wiped out and don't get a WBB from sweeping advances, expect for those who died BEFORE the sweeping advance. (they die anyhow if their isn't a necron unit within range to get them back)

And i say (since a GW rep got back to me on this one) That Defrollas only are used in Tank shock vs troops, since raming (although is a special form of tank shock) is not tank shock in the eyes of all



And that is a jab to gwars ribs :3



(on a much related side note, i believe in asking about such things to the tournament rule's master to see how the tournament is using said rules before hand, and if not in a tourny then just make sure certain things are ok with you're opponent before you start)






and im not trying to pick a fight with gwar (just give a friendly rib jab! followed by a duck via brick incoming), i really like his posts, he just cited a few specific examples i wanted to throw my thoughts on

Poor Nightrave, I knew thee well :(

Nightrave wrote:I say he does, since it says in the rulebook if he has two then he gets the +1 attack, however he looses the Power sword attack
I say you have to state the way it will work at the before hand
I say you have to ask the Tourny Rulemaster how he says it works

Does he stop weilding the Power Sword because he decides to use two power fists that turn? No, he still has a power Sword, and must Choose to use either the Gauntlets or the Sword (do not forget the Gauntlets are only 1 weapon), so as per Page 42, he loses the right to a bonus attack

I say That Necrons get Wiped out and don't get a WBB from sweeping advances, expect for those who died BEFORE the sweeping advance. (they die anyhow if their isn't a necron unit within range to get them back)

Actually, even the ones who dies before are removed, as they remain a part of the unit (they have to otherwise the monoliths abilites would not work at all)

And i say (since a GW rep got back to me on this one) That Defrollas only are used in Tank shock vs troops, since raming (although is a special form of tank shock) is not tank shock in the eyes of all

And GW reps are actually Poodles in Shirts (ok, I lie, a Poodle would actually do a better Job )

Remember, the Internets is srs bsns!

If he has two special weapons, and chooses the gauntlets and the gauntets themselves a special weapon count as a pair, then they still don't get the plus 1? even though they chose to use the special weapon "Gauntlets" and they are "double power fist" which meets the requirement for "two powerfists is da only way to get a +1 with a powerfist for two weapons in CC" Thats how i see it, but at the same time, i can see it from you're point as well gwar, since he does have "Two" close combat weapons, Gauntlets and the Sword, which one can he use?


They shoulda just made him take a real weapon Like my Great Wolf Grimnar, then this wouldn't be a problem!


As for the Necrons, Either way they die! but i can see it going both ways, they get the WWBB because the enemy was to busy chasing the remander down to kill the rest properly, but i can also see how that the enemy takes out the whole unit and make sure it stays down


And as for a Poodle in a shirt, that sounds bad :( but since that is the ruling that was made at 'ard boys last year (at least in the events my orc player went to and was told by the GW Rep his def rolla's vs tanks was worth beans) then thats kinda the way i roll, however in a personal level i think that Defrolla's should work on tanks, cause thats one of the few ways orcs can deal with things like Landraiders and Monoliths >.>;;

Am i late? For more information on the mess you've land yourself see here http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/240925.page started by Mr.Tangent


oh and if your wondering.... I believe the rules are clear he can only use 2 weapons at once if the pair chosen gives the bonus you get it.

The problem is that the rules only cover models that are armed with only two weapons. Calgar is armed with three weapons, two power fists and a power sword. Thus, he qualifies for both "Two of the same Special Weapon" and "Two different Special Weapons". There are no guidelines on which of the two categories takes precedence.

Oh this is going to turn into everyone's soapbox...

MasterSlowPoke wrote:The problem is that the rules only cover models that are armed with only two weapons. Calgar is armed with three weapons, two power fists and a power sword. Thus, he qualifies for both "Two of the same Special Weapon" and "Two different Special Weapons". There are no guidelines on which of the two categories takes precedence.

Apart from the fact you can only fight using 2 weapons ... so at some point you've got to work out which 2 weapons your fighting with ... and if your only fighting with 2 weapons that makes getting 2 combinations rather hard.

For what it's worth, INAT rules that if a model qualifies for "Two of the same Special Weapon" or "Special and a Normal Weapon", the model can get the +1 attack, regardless of the number of other special weapons it may have.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tri wrote:Apart from the fact you can only fight using 2 weapons ... so at some point you've got to work out which 2 weapons your fighting with ... and if your only fighting with 2 weapons that makes getting 2 combinations rather hard.

The argument is that Calgar doesn't get a bonus even if he does fight with two powerfists.

If I was playing SM and used Calgar I would probably not give him the +1 attack simply because it is a topic of dissension and I think it's more sportsmanlike to go with the less powerful option for your own army when faced with such things.

This being said, if someone was playing against me with SM and wanted to use that +1 attack, I'm not about to pack up my things and go home. I'd just let him know that's not how I would play it and we'd either roll off or, if he really whined about it, I'd just let him having his extra attack and be done with it.

Of course I would key his car after the game, but that's neither here nor there.

DoW

Let's think about this from a RAI POV. If Calgar decides to use the power sword then he will have to remove one power glove to grip the hilt. It's not possible to hold a sword with a power fist. That means conversely if he is swinging with both power fists then the sword must be sheathed. Therefore he is only using either both power fists OR only the power sword. Therefore if Calgar is using both power fists he benefits from +1 attack.

G

I beg to differ good sir, as pointed out by Tri:

Green Blow Fly wrote:If Calgar decides to use the power sword then he will have to remove one power glove to grip the hilt. It's not possible to hold a sword with a power fist.

I don't think that's necessarily true. Power fists are still hands that can grip and manipulate things when they do not have their power field activated (the number of Chaos lords holding skulls/helmets in their power firsts would attest to that).a
I think he'd be quite capable of wielding the sword while wearing his gloves. The initiative penalty might be more to do with the fact that you have to literally grab, rip or punch someone rather than that the gauntlets are too heavy to manipulate themselves.

Just ideas, of course.

DoW

I think Marneous gets +2 attacks for being such a complete tool

Anyways, I would allow an opponent to get the +1 bonus for having 2 PF as GW in thier infinite stupidity likely incorporated the cost of 2 PF into the model.

Gwar! wrote:Does he stop weilding the Power Sword because he decides to use two power fists that turn?

Well, yes, obviously he does.

He's still carrying the power sword. He's not using it, though.

And that brings us back to the crux of the argument. Either the Two Different SCCW rule kicks in because you're carrying two different SCCWs, or because you're using two different SCCWs.

The RAW is unclear, because it doesn't cover a model armed with two of the same SCCW and another different one. But the fact that Calgar has two powerfists and a powersword would seem to lead to thee possible conclusions:

1: The guy who wrote the codex certainly thought that he could choose which weapons to use
or
2: The guy who wrote the codex just thought it would be cool to give him a powersword, despite the fact that doing so would make him worse in close combat
or
3: The guy who sculpted the model thought it would be cool to add a sheathed sword (probably because without it the model didn't look 'blingy' enough, poor undecorated soul that he is) and so they had to add one in the rules, without stopping to consider what effect that would have.

None of which actually help to resolve the argument from a RAW perspective. You'll need to sort it out with your opponent.

4: Or the writer wanted Calgar to have the tactical choice of either wielding a PF at initaitive 1 or a PW at initiative 5 and just mentioned that Calgar came with a "pair" of PF for fluff/modeling reasons.

The world might never know...actually this is GW so the world WILL never know

So the "pair of integrated bolters" that are also "Gauntlets of Ultramar" most folks use it as a weapon with the listed profile. I think it would make little difference if it were twelve, honestly - as he can still shoot only 1, no? But it seems interesting nonetheless.

Must read more.

wyomingfox wrote:4: Or the writer wanted Calgar to have the tactical choice of either wielding a PF at initaitive 1 or a PW at initiative 5 and just mentioned that Calgar came with a "pair" of PF for fluff/modeling reasons.

That was number 1