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insaniak wrote:For a slightly less lopsided answer:

There are two schools of thought here:
1: The rules for having multiple special close combat weapons apply to the weapons the model is weilding at that time... so Calgar can choose to use the fists for the bonus attack, or the power sword to strike at Initiative.

Or

2: The rules for having multiple special close combat weapons apply to the weapons the model is carrying, and so Calgar can never claim the +1, as he has two different SCCW's, and the rules for having 2 different SCCW's say that such models never gain the bonus attack.



I lean more towards the first interpretation, not because I feel it's any more RAW, but because it's the interpretation that makes the most sense. YMMV.

Insaniak has hit the nail on the head. The problem I have with the 2nd one (which is the correct one) is that it makes his wargear completely pointless - he might as well have one fist and a power sword.

I would guess that he's supposed to have the +1A for the two fists but had power sword added to his weapons list just because it's on the model.

Personally, I'd say that the powersword is just ceremonial and let him have the +1A for the two fists. Not the RAW answer but it makes sense to me (plus, how does he use the powersword which seems to have a normal sized handle?)

The thing is the wielding is being taken out of context.

We have the main rule "Fighting with Two single handed Weapons" followed by 4 sub rules. These sub rules are a list of effects for the combinations of two single handed weapons.

The problem is there is no rules for what a model should do if they have more then 2 weapons. RAP (the only way it works) is to pick 2 of the X number of weapons a model has and use the "Fighting with Two single handed Weapons" rules. Then comes the point where both parties differ

A) You look at all weapons combinations and apply them together.

or

B) You look at the weapons combination you are using and only that combination.

Yeah... There is no rational reason for the powersword. It shouldn't even be there. But, since it is, no +1 attack. DOH!

There is a rational reason for the power sword, he can assault at I5 and he is also able to reroll failed wounds so the power sword actually functions like a lightning claw. If Marneus is down to one wound versus another unit that has attacks ignoring armor save but strikes at a lower initiative then it's safer for the chapter master to swing first.

G

There was a really complete debate on this topic a while back, even had a similar title iirc.

It really boils down to the pg 42 rules all talking about "fighting with two single-handed weapons". Under that heading the rules discuss the various combinations of two weapons that a model can be fighting/ equipped with.

Some people take the term equipped with to mean any weapons that the model may be carrying, so they want to apply the "two different special weapons" section to any model that has more than two weapons, two of which are different special weapons. (no extra attack)

Some people apply these rules to only two of the weapons on the model at a time, ie they choose two single handed weapons for the model to wield each turn. (may get an extra attack depending on the two weapons being used)


The problem with looking at all the weapons on the model is that this section of the rules then does not apply at all, since the model actually then has MORE THAN two single handed weapons. If you believe that we must look at all of the weapons on the model at once (this is the wielding = anything on the model camp) then the model doesnt have two weapons so this section of the rules breaks down.

If one believes that a model only wields/ uses two of his single handed weapons at a time, then this section of the rules works perfectly fine.


This topic appears to be one of those that drags our rules guru's percentage down to only being 99.99% correct



Sliggoth

insaniak wrote:That was number 1

Oops

"I think what we have here is a failure to communicate"

To me these are the kind of discussions that show how silly RAW can be at times.

G

Two different special weapons
When it is their turn to attack, these models must choose which weapon to use that turn, but they never get the bonus attack for using two weapons (such is the penalty for wielding too many complex weapons!).

To me, here's the key part. Did Calgar have to choose which weapon(s) he is going to use? If so, then this rule kicks in, ie the "must choose" part. Once that happens, we are not allowed to disregard the rest of the rule which says "they never get the bonus attack". Never. Not never unless he has other weapons, not never unless another combo allows +1, but simply never.

And yes, the Eversor, Eldrad, and I couple others I don't recall off the top of my head are also affected by this rule.

Simply put, never means never.

don_mondo wrote:Two different special weapons
When it is their turn to attack, these models must choose which weapon to use that turn, but they never get the bonus attack for using two weapons (such is the penalty for wielding too many complex weapons!).

To me, here's the key part. Did Calgar have to choose which weapon(s) he is going to use? If so, then this rule kicks in, ie the "must choose" part. Once that happens, we are not allowed to disregard the rest of the rule which says "they never get the bonus attack". Never. Not never unless he has other weapons, not never unless another combo allows +1, but simply never.

And yes, the Eversor, Eldrad, and I couple others I don't recall off the top of my head are also affected by this rule.

Simply put, never means never.

Problem is before you even get to "Two different special weapons" you must pick Two close combat weapons from weapons the model has to get any of the cobinations from fighting with two close combat weapons.

Put simply ...
Step 1) To be able to attack at all the model must select 2 weapons to use with the rule ... Fighting with Two single-handed weapons
Step 2) Go through the list of weapons to see what the effect is of the 2 weapons
Step 2d)If the model has picked two different special close combat weapons then one must be picked to used.

Regardless of other weapons options that the model may possess, the model has to choose which of the two different special weapons it is armed with it is going to use. That in and of itself is going to supercede any of the other choices among the rules.
Look at it this way, when a restrictive rule and a permissive rule are in conflict, which one takes precedence. Example: A unit with Fleet deep strikes and then runs in the shooting phase. Normally Fleet allows a unit to assault after running, but Deep Strike says they can't. Which rule takes precedence? The no has it. We have the same thing here, two rules, one says +1, one says no. Which one takes precedence? The no has it again.

don_mondo wrote:Regardless of other weapons options that the model may possess, the model has to choose which of the two different special weapons it is armed with it is going to use. That in and of itself is going to supercede any of the other choices among the rules.
Look at it this way, when a restrictive rule and a permissive rule are in conflict, which one takes precedence. Example: A unit with Fleet deep strikes and then runs in the shooting phase. Normally Fleet allows a unit to assault after running, but Deep Strike says they can't. Which rule takes precedence? The no has it. We have the same thing here, two rules, one says +1, one says no. Which one takes precedence? The no has it again.

yes but your ignoring that rule won't kick in till you've selected 2 weapons ... and then only applies to the 2 weapons chosen.

For some reason your ignoring that the rule your quoting is only part of the main rule ... which doesn't work unless you pick only 2 weapons.
FIGHTING WITH TWO SINGLE-HANDED WEAPONS ==> Two different special weapons

So out of the possible million of close combat weapons you could possibly have, you must pick 2 weapon that are one handed. Next you must see what those 2 weapon do. If for what ever reason you have picked two different special weapons then you get no bonus and must pick which of them you'll be using.

Edit and if you don't pick 2 weapons you are fighting with more then 2 single handed weapons ... and there is no rules for doing that

No, you're ignoring the fact that no matter what, HE HAS TO CHOOSE! He has two different weapons and MUST choose.
And once he has to choose, what rule is in effect?
And what does that rule say about the bonus attack?

Er things don't happen all at once Don you do things in order. First the main rule can only be used if you pick 2 weapons then you check those weapons against the list.

Gwar! wrote:

KidSquid wrote:So I chose a really good topic for my first post? I figured this would be better than an introduction post

The only way you could have made it worse is if you had asked about WBB vs Sweeping Advance and Deffrollas Ramming as well

or crisis suits with target lock in 5th edition. That's always a fun debate. So many questions without answers.

I think it's reasonable to force the player to use one configuration or the other for Calgar for the duration of the match. There really is no RAW that covers a model using three special weapons so all these answers are a bit of a stretch.

<appended>

It's important to note that the words about choosing a CCW is under the section for using two CCWs as Tri pointed out. No RAW answer here.

Yes it is open ended indeed.

G

don_mondo wrote:Two different special weapons
When it is their turn to attack, these models must choose which weapon to use that turn, but they never get the bonus attack for using two weapons (such is the penalty for wielding too many complex weapons!).

To me, here's the key part. Did Calgar have to choose which weapon(s) he is going to use? If so, then this rule kicks in, ie the "must choose" part. Once that happens, we are not allowed to disregard the rest of the rule which says "they never get the bonus attack". Never. Not never unless he has other weapons, not never unless another combo allows +1, but simply never.

And yes, the Eversor, Eldrad, and I couple others I don't recall off the top of my head are also affected by this rule.

Simply put, never means never.

If 2 weapons is wielding too many complex weapons im pretty sure wielding 3 weapons is wielding too many complex weapons. Ork math bad tho.

blaktoof wrote:
If 2 weapons is wielding too many complex weapons im pretty sure wielding 3 weapons is wielding too many complex weapons. Ork math bad tho.

.... Wielding has several meaning but the two that cause the trouble are A) to handel B) to use .... personally since its part of the using two weapons rule I'm a firm believer that its use .... but to paraphrase Gwar I'm bloody well not Alessio Cavatore so I can't say it is for sure.

Which brings us back to:
There are two widely accepted interpretations of this rule. Choose the one that you think is the most appropriate.

So basically the answer is ask your opponent at the before the game. Personally i think declaring the weps at the beginning makes more sense.

If not, why don't I just glue a Storm Shield and a thunderhammer on the back of My assault termie who has lightening claws. I don't mean this to be snarky, I am just pointing out how silly this issue that was basically cased by The Codex and the model not matching up to common sense.

A storm shield has it's own rule that prevents you from ever taking that second attack.

1 Powerfist + 1 Powerfist + 1 Powersword = Three special weapons and a gap in the rules (RAW only cover situation for using TWO special weapons).

Since there is no RAW on this you must decide amoungst yourselves.

The rules also say (or at least I thought they said) he can take his gloves off and punch people...so I say he has an extra attack with the dual fists, but not with the power weapon or with his normal attacks. Although, he does have 4 attacks over the regular chapter master's 3, so maybe its one of those "The extra attack is included in his profile" deals.

starbomber109 wrote:The rules also say (or at least I thought they said) he can take his gloves off and punch people...

Not exactly.

Last edition, powerfists had an off switch. Models could choose to hit with the fists, or turn them off and hit at initiative with normal strength.

This edition, there is no way to turn them off. You either use the powerfist, or you use a different SCCW. You can't choose to not use the powerfist's rules unless you have a different weapon to use instead.


Other than that, your take on it is pretty much the same as mine. He can choose to use two fists, in which case he gets the +1 attack for having two fists, or he can use one fist and the sword, in which case he chooses whether to hit with the sword or the fist, and does not get the +1 attack.

Again, the RAW is arguable both ways... that's just the way that makes the most sense to me.

Regwon wrote:1 Powerfist + 1 Powerfist + 1 Powersword = Three special weapons and a gap in the rules (RAW only cover situation for using TWO special weapons).

Actually, I just found this:

"Enganged models with two single-handed weapons...get an extra +1 attack. Models with more than two weapons gain no additional benefit..." (BRB, 37).

This offers any model with 3 or more single-handed weapons an extra attack. Unless there is an exception to prevent this (such as two different special weapons, which only applies when you are fighting with only 2), you always get the bonus attack, which means +1 for Calgar. Oddly enough, this could also mean he gets +1 for his sword.

I have yet to post in one of these endless debates. I think the fact that having one powerfist gives the same effect as having two suggests that he was supposed to be able to wield 2 for +1 A, but I see the RAW argument. As an interesting note, in the story about Knight commander Pask, his Leman Russ was run over and nearly destroyed by an ork vehicle with a deff rolla...

Gwar! wrote:

KidSquid wrote:Couldn't you declare that Calgar is only using the Gauntlets at the beginning of the game?

No, because his rules say he has a Power Sword, so he has it. End of Discussion.

wyomingfox wrote:

Gwar! wrote:No, he doesn't, because he also has a Power Weapon, so must choose which special weapon to use, thus unable to claim the bonus attack, as per Page 42 of the BRB

Wouldn't this be wielding three weapons, and doesn't he only have two arms? Wtf? in theory, he isn't even a legal piece.

thebetter1 wrote:Oddly enough, this could also mean he gets +1 for his sword.

While I might be on the fence with the rest of the argument, I'm pretty solidly against this one.

He would have to have something in his other hand if he's wielding the power sword in order to get +1 attacks. The only thing he has is one of his powerfists, but they specifically only give the +1A benefit if the other weapon is a power fist, which it isn't.

Getting +1A when using both his fists I can understand, getting +1A when using the sword doesn't make sense to me at all.

DoW

thebetter1 wrote:Unless there is an exception to prevent this (such as two different special weapons, which only applies when you are fighting with only 2),

No matter how many weapons the model has, he still only fights with two. There are no rules for normal infantry that would allow them to use more than two, and the rule you quoted specifically mentions that there is no additional benefit to having more.

So the section on fighting with two single handed weapons still applies, whether the model has 2, 3 or 17 weapons.

insaniak wrote:

starbomber109 wrote:The rules also say (or at least I thought they said) he can take his gloves off and punch people...

Not exactly.

Last edition, powerfists had an off switch. Models could choose to hit with the fists, or turn them off and hit at initiative with normal strength.

This edition, there is no way to turn them off. You either use the powerfist, or you use a different SCCW. You can't choose to not use the powerfist's rules unless you have a different weapon to use instead.

Since we've brought this up again may I point out that special weapons are not the same as special attacks. If you have more then one weapon you can choose what to use and since rifle butts count as a close combat weapon, this can be used.

page 35 'who can fight?', third paragraph wrote:All models will fight in this turn's Assault phase with their full number of Attacks and use any special close combat attack they have.

special close combat attack =/= special close combat weapon

.... for more information on special close combat attacks please see, Bio Plasma, Servo arms, Mace & Scythe Tails, Nest of vipers, for just the few i can remember off the top of my head.

Tri, I totally get your point about selecting which two weapons to wield and it's a very sensible approach. However, there's nothing in the rules to support this extra step of selecting which two weapons to use.

In fact, on p37 it specifically mentions fighting with more than two weapons.