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I was playing a game on Sunday, and a question on a ruling came up, my friend aimed a ordnance weap. at a Rhino i had in open ground, but the blast moved over to the rhino right next to it,that was not in LOS of the model firing it we could not figure out if that rhino gets a cover save from the blast.

Yes, it would. Cover is worked out after the final position of the blast is determined.

But the cover save is worked out assuming that the 'shot' comes from the centre of the template. You do not work out cover saves from barrage weapons according to the position of the firing model.

If the blast is centred on a hedge, and the edge of the blast hits your Rhino, it gets a 5+ cover save. If the centre of the blast was in open ground and the edge touched your Rhino, you would not get a cover save.

Have a read through the ordnance barrage rules in the brb

That's for Barrage and Ordnance Barrages...NOT for Blast weapons.

The only time you take the direction of the hole into consideration is if the marker deviates onto a vehicle. Then the armor facing the hole is used for penetration.

But the cover save is worked out assuming that the 'shot' comes from the centre of the template. You do not work out cover saves from blast weapons according to the position of the firing model.

If the blast is centred on a hedge, and the edge of the blast hits your Rhino, it gets a 5+ cover save. If the centre of the blast was in open ground and the edge touched your Rhino, you would not get a cover save.

Have a read through the ordnance barrage rules in the brb

Incorrect, the shot is worked out comming from the firing model toward the target if the weapon is a normal or ordinance blast or Large blast. Barrage blasts are the only blasts that the cover is determined from the center hole in the template.

The rhino would get cover in this situation since it is more then 50% not visible. Only a small percentage of Ordinance is Barrage, they are two separate rules.

Nurgleboy77 wrote:That's for Barrage and Ordnance Barrages...NOT for Blast weapons.

I agree. And the OP's question was concerning an ordnance weapon. Whether or not it was firing as a barrage or ordnance barrage is irrelevant.

BlueDagger wrote:
Incorrect, the shot is worked out coming from the firing model toward the target if the weapon is a normal or ordinance blast or Large blast. Barrage blasts are the only blasts that the cover is determined from the center hole in the template.

BRB. p58. righthand-side column. 4th paragraph: 'Ordnance barrages.... ....work out their cover save as if the shot came from the centre of the blast marker'. Do we have different rulebooks?

That rule only applies for Ordnance Barrages, not Ordnance Blast. It says it right there in your quote.

ordanance BLAST weapon cover saves are resolved using the direction the shot came from, i.e. a vindicator shoots at a rhino half behind a building. This means even if it scatters over something else, its cover if it can be (like if its out of LOS, etc.)

Ordanance Barrage weapons cover saves are resolved using the center of the template. These are things like Basilisks and the like. reason being the shell or whatever is coming from above (artillery shots), so theres no real way to "hide" if it lands right inside your bunker. Things like Thunderfire Cannons have these.

In your case, yes, it would get cover (unless its profile was a Barrage weapon)

J.Black wrote:I agree. And the OP's question was concerning an ordnance weapon. Whether or not it was firing as a barrage or ordnance barrage is irrelevant.

Whether or not it was firing as barrage is very relevant, since it completely changes the answer.

Barrage weapons give the save based on the centre of the template.
Non-Barrage weapons give the same based on the LOS from the firer to the target.

Ordnance does not automatically mean Barrage. They're two distinct categories.

Umm, I'm assuming that when the OP says 'blast', they simply mean the template being used to determine what's been hit.

Clarification would be nice

J.Black wrote:Umm, I'm assuming that when the OP says 'blast', they simply mean the template being used to determine what's been hit.

That's what it generally means, yes. (Although technically, at least so far as the rules are concerned, it's a 'blast marker' rather thana template. 'Template' refers to the teardrop shaped one used for flamers and the like).

But, again, the fact that it's an Ordnance weapon with a blast does not automatically make it a Barrage weapon. He didn't mention Barrage in his original post, so the answers given assumed that it was just a regular Ordnance weapon.

Fair Enough Insaniak. I stand corrected

Wish they'd made it clearer in the rules that Ordnance = Ordnance blast :S

J.Black wrote:BRB. p58. righthand-side column. 4th paragraph: 'Ordnance barrages.... ....work out their cover save as if the shot came from the centre of the blast marker'. Do we have different rulebooks?

I would assume so, since you seem to be referring to the Fantasy Rulebook.

captain.gordino wrote:

J.Black wrote:BRB. p58. righthand-side column. 4th paragraph: 'Ordnance barrages.... ....work out their cover save as if the shot came from the centre of the blast marker'. Do we have different rulebooks?

I would assume so, since you seem to be referring to the Fantasy Rulebook.

The line he quoted is definitely on pg 58 of the 5th edition 40k rulebook.

Well, BGB is 40k, BRB is Fantasy.

The 40k rulebook is also referenced using the term 'BRB'. The 5th edition book is red.

4th Edition (Grey):


5th Edition (Red):

I've got a question. If Ordnance Blasts are resolved using the direction the shot came from, and my blast scatters so that the shot would have had to go through something that blocks LoS completely in order to land where it did, what happens then? Do you resolve it anyways, or does it hit whatever was in the way, like a building? What if I shoot at some necrons standing beside a monolith with my russ, say, and the shot scatters behind the monolith and hits some other necrons. Do you resolve against the unit it struck or the monolith (which is in between the russ and the impact site). Or does it just miss completely?

The outline is still the same grey, it's just the actual picture which is reddish. I was going by the Dakka Glossary.

Anyway, I guess this thread should be allowed to go the way of the titanic now.

captain.gordino wrote:The outline is still the same grey, it's just the actual picture which is reddish. I was going by the Dakka Glossary.

Anyway, I guess this thread should be allowed to go the way of the titanic now.

Just the actual cover of the book is red, yes. WE CAN'T TRUST THE DAKKA GLOSSARY FOR EVERYTHING. HE ADDED IT YEARS AGO. (Elf puns intended )

wow i can't believe how quiet YMDC has gotten since Gwar! got banned...

murdog wrote:I've got a question. If Ordnance Blasts are resolved using the direction the shot came from, and my blast scatters so that the shot would have had to go through something that blocks LoS completely in order to land where it did, what happens then? Do you resolve it anyways, or does it hit whatever was in the way, like a building? What if I shoot at some necrons standing beside a monolith with my russ, say, and the shot scatters behind the monolith and hits some other necrons. Do you resolve against the unit it struck or the monolith (which is in between the russ and the impact site). Or does it just miss completely?

Sorry, i missed your post. This is answered on p30 BRB, in the sixth paragraph under "BLASTS" (the one just below the example paragraph written in italics).

Behind a monolith would equal a 4+ cover save for the affected necrons.

J.Black wrote:Fair Enough Insaniak. I stand corrected

Wish they'd made it clearer in the rules that Ordnance = Ordnance blast :S

Not to jump on your case as well, but Ordnance != Ordnance Blast. See the IG codex and Hellstrike missiles for an example of an Ordnance weapon that does not have the Blast attribute (clarified by FAQ). You need both the "Ordnance" and the "Blast" attributes for an ordnance weapon to use a large blast marker ("...all ordnance blast weapons use the large blast marker." -BGB, p58).

To be fair, the Rulebook rules on just what Ordnance is are a little sparse.

The lack of description, followed by the example of a Battle Cannon, could certainly be taken to suggest that all Ordnance should have a blast marker.

In reality, 'Ordnance' simple means: Big weapon, usually mounted on a vehicle, can't fire other weapons at the same time, better armour penetration.

Any other characteristics (Blast, Barrage, Whatever) that apply will be so noted in the weapon's profile.

Gwar got banned?

murdog wrote:Gwar got banned?

Thought i hadnt seen him for a while, when was this, why?? LOL.

As for the question they get a cover save unless it is a barrage weapon in which case they dont.

Let's keep it on-topic, folks. The status of other Dakka members is not a topic for YMDC.

Eldar Own wrote:As for the question they get a cover save unless it is a barrage weapon in which case they dont.

As has already been pointed out, you do get a cover save from Barrage weapons. It just works differently to other weapons.

Unless you were referring specifically to the example in the OP, in which case, yes, if the rhino was in open ground as described there would be no cover save from a Barrage weapon.

murdog wrote:I've got a question. If Ordnance Blasts are resolved using the direction the shot came from, and my blast scatters so that the shot would have had to go through something that blocks LoS completely in order to land where it did, what happens then? Do you resolve it anyways, or does it hit whatever was in the way, like a building? What if I shoot at some necrons standing beside a monolith with my russ, say, and the shot scatters behind the monolith and hits some other necrons. Do you resolve against the unit it struck or the monolith (which is in between the russ and the impact site). Or does it just miss completely?

As insaniak said you simply take the rule of more then 50% of the unit is blocked by a type of cover. A vehicle would be a 4+ cover save. Think of it as the missile went flying off target at the last minute and tried to hit the necrons. There is a chance that it hit something on the way since it took a strange twist off path... just in the 40k world you don't resolve the hit against what might have protected it.