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Farseer- Bike, Fortune, Mindwar, Runes of Warding, Runes of Witnessing, Spirit Stones 180 pts
x10 Warlocks on bikes-x6 Destructor, x2 Enhance, x2 Embolden 550 pts

Farseer- Bike, Fortune, Mindwar, Doom, Runes of Witnessing, Spirit Stones 190 pts
x10 Warlocks on bikes-x6 Destructor, x2 Enhance, x2 Embolden 550 pts

x3 Guardian Jetbikes x1 Shuriken Cannon 76 pts
x3 Guardian Jetbikes x1 Shuriken Cannon 76 pts
x3 Guardian Jetbikes x1 Shuriken Cannon 76 pts
x3 Guardian Jetbikes x1 Shuriken Cannon 76 pts
x3 Guardian Jetbikes x1 Shuriken Cannon 76 pts

Total 1850

Nothing earthshattering here. Just send the Council to do their deeds. More than likely reserve the GJB's, as they won't be necessary til later in game.

Looks like a really Solid list. As for that 1800-2000 Point Gap I'd put in a Fire Prisim to add a little more Punch

On the rare occasion that I play over 1850, I'll probably add Scatterlaser Warwalkers. Give opponent some outflanking to think about.

Assuming you mean 6x Destructor in each squad it's adding up to 555 points for the warlocks?

Edit: nvm, it's 550 allright :-)

Seems like it might be hard to use 8 templates simultaneously for full effect - maybe take of 2 templates/squad and get a couple singing spears instead? Could be useful for shooting transports then assaulting the passengers.

Its actually 6 flamers already, otherwise you'd have 12 powers on 10 warlocks.

I wouldn't buy powers for all the warlocks, I think you could shift those points somewhere more useful.

Too man destructors.
3 is absolute max IMO. 2 Is more economical.

Generally they seal the deal in combat and not really shooting.

I think those Guardian Jetbikes are too fragile and too cookie cutter.
A 6 man squad with a warlock is a dependable unit. The 3 man squads are alot of kill poitns, soft units to kick off objectives, even a single MEQ casualty makes them test morale.

If you are running double council, I don't thnk you need to be that large of a unit.

7-8 in each squad is really enough, maybe saving points for a pair of prisms and more guardian jetbikes to bulk up the squads.

If you have an Embolden Warlock Runes of Witnessing is pretty pointless, as Psychic Tests are a Leadership Test you get to reroll failed ones, and Runes of Witnessing are more likely to roll double 1's as you have to take the lowest 2 dices as your result. being fortuned helps, but I think the points are better spent elsewhere.

if you are going to have that many destructors probably get some singing spears in there as well, to pop vehicles, then use your assault move to get out of assault range. Then next turn fly in and flame away. Looks pretty good otherwise.

sbeasley wrote:If you have an Embolden Warlock Runes of Witnessing is pretty pointless, as Psychic Tests are a Leadership Test you get to reroll failed ones, and Runes of Witnessing are more likely to roll double 1's as you have to take the lowest 2 dices as your result. being fortuned helps, but I think the points are better spent elsewhere.

if you are going to have that many destructors probably get some singing spears in there as well, to pop vehicles, then use your assault move to get out of assault range. Then next turn fly in and flame away. Looks pretty good otherwise.

Have you played Eldar vs Eldar without Runes of Witnessing? It's complete fail! Enjoy perils of the Warp all day.

Singing Spears are garbage! Councils need all the attacks to force enough saves on opponent to kill. Remember they are not armed with power weapons, opponent always gets saves.

Again, the bikes are there to fulfill troops and scoring objectives late game. They will shoot and hide, nothing more.

6 Destructors = dead TH/SS Terminators

So you killed 5 TH/SS with 6 destructors, now they are in the open.
IMO, save the 60 points for something like warwalkers.

Reserves is not always friendly to GJB.
In addition it's highly dependent on terrain, but large based jetbikes on flying stands are pretty big, rare will all be out of line of sight.

In addition, that's the problem with them, they are great late game takers, but it's random and they are not that durable.
They require certainty that you go last without another turn afterwards.

In addition, they are not like tanks/vehicles...can't turbo into terrain and you can't push people off of it, if they have enough numbers to keep you out of 3", remember you have to stay 1" away from their base....etc.

Councils are nice, but are not unbeatable, if you roll enough armor/inv saves they start dying fortune or not.
If you play against an army that can tarpit them (and that will happen), the GJB jump shooot jump can only get them so far.

/shrug.

Go with what you like.
Get a game a post bat reps with pics.
It seems you are not really open to suggestions and think it's perfect, so.... go with it.

Would you rather fight TH/SS termies or some random tactical in HtH? Blow the termies away and move on.

The GJB are in reserve to simply stay out of harms way. It's ok to come on later in game.

The Councils are big so they can take fight to enemy and get some multi-charges off.

You can't allow the Councils to get tarpitted. Seeing as they are pretty much the whole army at 1850, you have to get things done with Warlocks/Farseers.

In my sig, I have my Eldar blog. Bases on bikes are shown there.

It's not so much that I'm not open to suggestions. I have played the Jetlock army quite often. I feel good about them being in open with 3+/4+ Inv. What many players get caught in is trying to shoot Council up with high strength weapons and not high volume of fire.

Not sure how this army will work with new meta. My area has many Space Wolf armies sprouting up. Rune Priests could just wreck the whole thing.

You need singing spears for them all, since it only 3 pts extra and you ignore armour saves. Id go for something with long ranged fire power, a prism or couple of walkers. Your runes of warding should deal with the rune priests problem.

Singing spears don't ignore armor saves... I like the amount of destructors the list has, a list like that is a terror at my LGS, If it was not Saim-Hann I would suggest a few DAVU serpents instead of the GJB's, for a lot more durability, albeit alot less scoring troops. It seems like a real fun list to play/play against.

Well, I was expecting small flying bases or large flying bases...but 40mm Termy bases?

I don't know...maybe the LGS and non-GW related tournies dont' mind, but at least in my area and the GW hosted stuff:

"Base the models on what they come with." Which is the new 5th ed ruling.

I have my plague marines on termie bases as well, and I can no longer use my main army in official events.

But I'm sure you are the lucky one in an open minded gaming group. Lucky for you.
____________________________

See, the GJB of old has small flying bases.
Now, they have large flying bases: to mitigate their jump shoot jump business.
____________________________

Anyway, as to the list:

Reserves is nice, and I know you want them coming in later.
But what I had meant about the reserves comment is that it's not predictable, it's not always in your favor.

Re: Tarpitting.
I find it laughable to suggest something like that when you have nothing at range to take down a land raider.
You will be tarpitted, whether you 'try' and avoid a LR with contents or kill the LR and have the contents still around to tarpit them.

I'm only saying that it's not so much about you avoiding them, but every army has something speedy to lock down a council if they need to.

I don't use double council, but I use a large one as well, I save points with only one to buff up the GJB so that they are a bit more useful and have points for some Prisms to continue the anti-infantry theme, and anti AV 14 if needed.

In my experience, 'out in the open' is never a good thing, but I play to baby all my units.
Plus, I use lots of plague marines, so I use and play against lots of 'durable' unit armies.... and really "too much protection isn't enough"...(heh, that sounds funny).

So in my gaming group, every body gravitates towards mass small arms if they ever encounter somthing durable as a council...and frankly I'm terrified at that.

I've beat down councils and my councils have been beat down by mass small arms.... I generally do NOT overestimate their ability to take damage. But I guess I'm more of a cautious player in terms of my units' wellbeing.

Etc. It's more of a 'different strokes for different folks' issues.

Eldar Own wrote:You need singing spears for them all, since it only 3 pts extra and you ignore armour saves. Id go for something with long ranged fire power, a prism or couple of walkers. Your runes of warding should deal with the rune priests problem.

Spears do not ignore saves.

This is a up close army. It is meant to spam the Seer Council.

I was talking about the 4+ counter to the Eldar powers, not the offensive threat of Rune Priests.

Re to bases... I have the termie bases painted up nice and my whole army looks similar. I didn't glue the bases in and I have the plastic flying bases, so I can "legalize" the base situation. My opinion on bases, and I hear some kids questioning them at the LGS. What is the problem? GJB come with either large or small bases. I'm not gaining some game breaking advantage.

On that LR with the tarpitting unit. I will ignore it early game. Why sacrifice an important unit?

This was Army Builder'd for a conversation piece. I will play it and get some opinions and pictures.

Old Man Ultramarine wrote:Have you played Eldar vs Eldar without Runes of Witnessing? It's complete fail! Enjoy perils of the Warp all day.

Why yes I have <see sig>, and have yet to fail once with an embolden warlock <which you also have>. We are talking about Ld10 with a reroll. If you fail on that, then the gods are against you for sure. You do realize that Runes of Witnessing actually cause you to PotW more often, because you are more likely to roll double 1's right, so I'm not seeing your point. Let's look at if from this perspective at worst Runes of Witnessing is at best a waste of 10 points.

Old Man Ultramarine wrote:Singing Spears are garbage! Councils need all the attacks to force enough saves on opponent to kill. Remember they are not armed with power weapons, opponent always gets saves.

The spears are there to pop vehicles and run away in the assault move, and then fly in and burn down the unit in the vehicle on following turns, or you can tie them up with some warp spiders or some other counter assault unit that can leave combat on the following turn. I'm sorry if you have 6+ destructors and the unit has more than a few models left, and you are relying on witchblades to finish the job, then you are doing something wrong.

Old Man Ultramarine wrote:Again, the bikes are there to fulfill troops and scoring objectives late game. They will shoot and hide, nothing more.

This is a great idea

Old Man Ultramarine wrote:6 Destructors = dead TH/SS Terminators

Quite true, so why don't you want singing spears on your council again. Oh that's right because you want to assault a vehicle and have the troops assault you the next turn. Instead of shooting at 12" destroying the vehicle, and then moving 6" away, so that you can't get assaulted. Then next turn actually getting to use those destructors instead of being tied up in assault.

Calling something garbage, when you don't understand it's tactical advantage is short sighted at best.

You know that those councils will do you know good at all with 10 plague marnines and a power fist tying them up for the entire game. spears give you options witchblades commit you to a certain action. And anything with a 2+ save and your council is done for, because it just doesn't have the killing power.

Oh and if you doubt me here go here and watch a vid of seer council spam and how it works in game.

http://saimhann.blogspot.com/2009/11/silly-seer-council-spam.html

Your post is full of fail. I was assuming you understood my response.

We are talking Ld10 on 3d6. When you play the mirror match and you don't have Runes of Witnessing vs. your opponent's Rune of Warding, you have to roll leadership on 3d6. Yes, you have a reroll via Embolden, but an average roll of 10.5 is failure. When game is on line and you need Fortune up are you willing to take that gamble? I'll pass and take the 10 point Runes of Witnessing x2.

On the Plague Marines... Say 6 Destructors hit 7 Marines on average. 42 hits, 21+ wounds, Doom gets another 10 wounds. So 31+ wounds to save. So 4+ regs fail, 2 failed on special weapons, and 1+ on champion. Feel no Pain saves = 2+ dead regulars, 1 special weapon dead and .5ish dead Sgt. Just average and my math may be off, but 3-4 dead marines and I didn't include the 5 twin ShurCats from Farseer and 4 other bikes. I'll take that and back off. Yes, dice can be hot and you save better, but they also could be horrible and whole thing dies.

I know the whole pop the can, assault the troops strategy with Spears. Say 5 Warlocks have Spears...vs. Land Raider 3.3 hit, .5 glance, .5 pen. Now it's based on a d6 result. Bad odds! (Guide was not factored in shooting.)

Now onto assaulting armed with Spears. There are such things as units that deny charge bonuses, Dire Avenger Defend and some Chaos Daemon wargear does it, for example. The intial charge with council is so important as it needs to cause casualties so it doesn't get tarpitted for too many turns. In any case, 5 Spears = 25% less attacks in HtH. Those extra attacks are difference in beating Marines or sitting all game trying to do it. Case closed.

So much contradiction of opinions here. Anything with 2+ save and Council is done for. No that is reason for x6 Destructors.

I gave up watching Fritz's site. Between Fritz's less than optimal lists and bad play by opponents, pointless. You realize, as of 3-4 months ago, Fritz normally runs a 5 man "throw away" council with 5 destructors, right?

This one quote and I left the site, today disgusted...

Fritz, November 12, 2009 7:15 AM
....in the end all that matters is that we have to take out Brother Captain James from placing and make sure our land raiders pop smoke and then machine spirit that las cannons on him!



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whether it was sarcastic or whatever doesn't matter, but discussing an illegal play and the feedback on link provided of throwing up Eldar psychics AND then turboboosting. Pure gak

One problem with this list might be that you have only 2 units that actually kill stuff. I'm assuming you want to be conservative with the fragile GJB units.
If the councils get stuck in CC with Nobs/Terminators/Bloodcrushers/Plague Marines you are left with very little options.
Another drawback could be an opponent with lots of small units, say Dark Eldar, you might run out of time to make an impact as a council can only do so much in 1 turn.

Good play can probably solve this so im looking forward to some battle reports :-)

This list will cause a large amount of annoyance for some armies but things like mechanized IG will go to town when they have 6 or so scoring chimeras that sit there shooting laser spam while you only have two units that can easily damage them. Pod marines played well will be hard to beat too.

Just because there are so many separate squads of bikes, it might actually work. It might not; I can't be sure. Seems like things will work well. Two councils are going to be a major pain to kill. So good luck and let us know how things go.

Oh and you're right. Singing spears are garbage for jetbike councils. They can move 12 then assault another 6 so chances are they are going to assault their target and get many more hits than say 4 out pf 6 spears hitting. And destructor spam is kind of necessary. More dice means M/TEQ's will die.

meh, I just don't see it working. sure, you get alot of attacks. null zone librarians and space wolf rune priests are very common tournament components though.... and both of them have the ability to block your fortune. Or with null zone, worst case, block fortune, and then leave you vulnerable to terminators / plasma.

with space wolves / marines being so common, this doesn't seem like a list i'd want to field in a tournament. Not to mention, that with only 15 scoring models, any opponent should easily be able to force a draw.

Pod marines is an auto-win. I reserve whole army and watch where they land, then come on and destroy. Just have to make it through one turn of no Fortune. That may require one turn of hiding if need be.

The trick is whether game is objective or kill points.

My thought is that the GJB will wolf pack them.

I will play 2-3 games vs. drop pod dread Vulcan, drop pod marines and drop pod/LRC 8 termie TH/SS combo this week.




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Horst wrote:meh, I just don't see it working. sure, you get alot of attacks. null zone librarians and space wolf rune priests are very common tournament components though.... and both of them have the ability to block your fortune. Or with null zone, worst case, block fortune, and then leave you vulnerable to terminators / plasma.

with space wolves / marines being so common, this doesn't seem like a list i'd want to field in a tournament. Not to mention, that with only 15 scoring models, any opponent should easily be able to force a draw.

Null zone will hurt, but they need to put it up vs. a 3d6 leadership test. Not a given.

I don't know if I'd run it or not in a tourney.

I don't have a problem with the bases.
But GW official events go by RAW in that regard (at least in my area).

It's good you have the bases available.

No, the jetbikes come with big bases now.
They USED to come with small bases.
Now it's scouts honor which one came with what, but there are pros and cons to using Small Flying Bases as opposed to Large Flying bases, I'm sure you can come up with them.

Just pointing out, in case a situation does demand different bases, then my post about the bases could be taken into account.

RE: LR, you can ignore it, but it's not ignoring you.
The opponent can deploy so that there's no approach that won't have the LR in barf range for the contents.

I believe this list would get crushed by a lot of stuff. You have 2 killing units and the rest of your units only have to lose one guy to force a ldr test on ldr 8.

A 75% inv save rate is indeed nice, but that is still 25% of wounds that is coming through. With the current meta there is a lot of anti tank out that so you can assume your going to have a lot of 3+ AP or better hitting these guys. Hoping that in a 1800 game 2 units can take on the entire opponent army is kinda silly as you'll simply get focus fired into oblivion.

Also the RoW is pointless, like someone else said, if you fail you leadership twice in a row even on 3D6 then it just wasn't meant to be. Plus as another mentioned RoW increases the chance to roll double 1s.

if a unit of thunderhammer terminators or nobs (common units) get close enough to your squad, you can say goodbye farseer. they just need to stack 4 wounds on your farseer to practically ensure it dies in hand to hand, then the entire squad is extremely vulnerable to fire, and will go down really fast.

hell, even ogryns on the charge could decimate that unit, what with each ogryn being str6.

Sanctjud wrote:I don't have a problem with the bases.
But GW official events go by RAW in that regard (at least in my area).

It's good you have the bases available.

No, the jetbikes come with big bases now.
They USED to come with small bases.
Now it's scouts honor which one came with what, but there are pros and cons to using Small Flying Bases as opposed to Large Flying bases, I'm sure you can come up with them.

Just pointing out, in case a situation does demand different bases, then my post about the bases could be taken into account.

RE: LR, you can ignore it, but it's not ignoring you.
The opponent can deploy so that there's no approach that won't have the LR in barf range for the contents.

Point taken on bases.

Barf range? Awesome term. Unless they play x2 LR units I have a turn to set up my counter move.

Horst wrote:if a unit of thunderhammer terminators or nobs (common units) get close enough to your squad, you can say goodbye farseer. they just need to stack 4 wounds on your farseer to practically ensure it dies in hand to hand, then the entire squad is extremely vulnerable to fire, and will go down really fast.

hell, even ogryns on the charge could decimate that unit, what with each ogryn being str6.

Farseer has a retinue of the warlocks, he can't be singled out in CC unless a special rule dictates it. Ogryns would still allow the 3+ armor and if fortune is up they would have a rough time. Plus Ogryn are a I2 vs and I5 they would get slaughtered before having a chance to react.

@BlueDagger:

Um...no.
Warlocks are not a retinue.
The seer can be picked out as normail with repsect to IC rules.

Ogryns have one chance, council assaulting them in cover....otherwise yea, it's not looking good for Ogryns.

ok, bad example

Huh your right I'll be darned. Always thought it said that the warlocks were taken as a bodyguard unit.