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Hey guys,

Anyway, im a bit of a noob, getting back into 40k after a ten year absence, and i play with a few friends of mine.

Ive been wanting to play more regularly than just the few weekends a month we get together and was thinking of going into a tourney, maybe some arranged matches, or perhaps even just nip into my local GW to arrange a game, and i started thinking about "model etiquette"

For example, i bought and nicely painted (spent fething ages!) 5 vanguard veterans, (as you do when you love the hobby, cos you see them in GW and they look awesome, and not cos you actually checked the codex!) and then saw that they were 175 points with jump packs, which is just ridiculous. So, ive been using them as regular assault marines, or, as i think looks really cool, in a small game, using 6 man team of assault marines (bought a 5 man AM box) and have one of the VV as the squad sergeant.

We also do stuff like, swop weapons on LR without actually changing from the vanilla Las cannons/HB, or say a LAS is on my razorback instead of the HB (i dont have a spare las cannon) or say a guy in a tactical squad (Model has a plasma rifle) is my heavy weapon guy and has a Plasma Cannon

etc etc

Anyway, my question is, in these type of games, is any form of "winging" it acceptable? I mean, im guessing in a tourney, not at all (GW want me to buy 3 LR!) nut what about games with people you arent friends with, games in stores, stuff like that?

For myself, being a casual playing older bloke, i dont give a rats ass as long as you tell me at the start of the match. (ie not 3 turns in "oh btw, those 10 Guardmen stood next to your command squad are actually ten ogyrn") did i not mention that?)

What do you think is acceptable for games against people you dont know so well, tourney games,casual games in GW etc?

Winging it is generally acceptable as long as it is consistent and easily identifiable. If I'm playing an ork player and they have skorchas on their killa kans and say they are really big shootas that's no problem as long as there isn't a few killa kans that _really_ have skorchas and I cannot tell the difference. Having said that, you will encounter TFG at a tournament so it is always a good idea to explain (or email the tournament director ahead of time) to a judge what you are doing and get his or her o.k.

In tournaments, as long as it's easy to tell what is what, it should be fine. One of my friends left a box of his Marines at home by accident when travelling to an interstate tournament - all of his opponents were fine with his paper proxies.

However, in general it should be as WYSIWYG as possible. Having one thing which already has rules represent something completely different can be confusing and hard to keep track of, not to mention a bit of an insult when you get people who have worked hard on making their army legal.

As far as your examples go, if I faced you in a tournament I wouldn't mind your Assault Marines being more decorated than is normal, but wouldn't be particularly happy with your LRC/LRR-in-disguise and your undersized Plasmacannon. Certainly wouldn't be an outright refusal to play, but it would probably feel like I've wasted my time getting my own army done.

I am a pure WYSIWYG guy. In my local group, casual play is one thing, tournament play is another. We recently had a guy drop because we wouldn't allow him to use Njal in TA as Njal in Runic Armor.

olympia wrote: Having said that, you will encounter TFG at a tournament so it is always a good idea to explain (or email the tournament director ahead of time) to a judge what you are doing and get his or her o.k.

InquisitorFabius wrote: We recently had a guy drop because we wouldn't allow him to use Njal in TA as Njal in Runic Armor.

To OP, as I was saying, make sure you check with the organizer...

After reading inquisitors answer, i think i best get my credit card out! I need a terminator armor librarian, a terminator armor chaplain and a power armor Calgar!

Opinions and event rules will vary. If in doubt, for an organised event, check with the organiser beforehand to make sure you are in the clear.

For myself, the visual aspect of the game is one of the big drawcards. So I prefer to play with painted, WYSIWYG models, and I prefer my opponent to do the same.

I don't have a problem with the odd proxy (so long as it's not confusing) or unpainted model, though.

i think ive really done a good job with my army, its all fully painted, i just dont like the idea of buying another 4 land raiders so i can take different patterns!

Sadly, serious tournies will require it.

Thats the exact reasion I have 10 Rhino Chassis sitting on the shelf above my monitor, 4 have modular side doors to be used as predators, and all have removable top hatches and turret rings. I also use the FW Breaching Drill arms on my dreads, so in every list I pay the points for the H Flamer so my models are WYSIWYG.

Buy the standard LR, and the crusader upgrade sprue. Use magnets so that the weapons are swappable.

It would not fly in my regular group, or tournament scene, to bring a LR Redeemer and call it a crusader...

Magnets and flat headed push pins are your BEST friend in you are looking to save money. Ive saved a TON of cash by using magnets in my armies.

As long as you say to your opponent beforehand it should be fine. However i wouldn't be happy if i let what i though were assault marrines assault me, thinking i could fend them off easily, then my opponent saying: "oh, BTW, those marines are vanguard veterans."

It really depends.

With my friends we let most things go by, if they want to try a new unit before buying the actual model, or if they want to try a new setup for a unit thats all right for us.

But if your going to play with soda cans for drop pods or normal ork nobz for mega nobz, you will only get to play 1-2 games before i'd want you to get the real models.

And as people have said, it feels kinda wrong to the guy whos used loads of time converting and fixing his units to WYSIWYG quality.

However using a Vanguard veteran as a sergeant in a assault marine squad would be totally fine, as long as you have the correct weapons on him. Think that'd be a cool swap for the normal sergeant.

For friendly games I'm pretty open to anything, although this depends on who I'm playing against, call it personal bias, if I like my opponent, know I'll have a great time no matter what they bring to the table, I don't mind proxy models from other games, weapon swaps, different base sizes (within reason obviously) or sticking in a few figures from a completely different army just because you don't have enough figures or are missing something in particular. Obviously I'd prefer WYSIWYG and everything painted (like my army) but I'm not picky. I generally draw the line at playing a whole army as something else. Sure, I wouldn't mind one space marine chapter played as another, as long as I can make out the units, I do however draw the line at proxying whole armies.

Vehicle weaponry can change your ranges, barrels being longer or shorter, if you're just trying it out for a game or two I'd be fine with it, but as soon as proxying becomes a habit rather than exception, because you don't put in the time, money or effort to model appropriately, I'd start feeling sour. My entire army is painted, I never play with unpainted figures, nor do I play anything except WYSIWYG.

However, this thread got me thinking, obviously I sometimes play my vehicles that I have modeled extra armor on (all of them) as not having it, if I'm making a smaller list for example and can't afford the armor. In those cases I make a point of actually writing NO EXTRA ARMOR on my army list, and underlining it in red. Not to mention going through my list with my opponent before the game starts, so they knows what's what. That's the only thing I haven't played as WYSIWYG I reckon (and well, see below). I've made a point to paint up enough models to have different weapon layouts in different squads and will make it work with what I got, without proxying or saying something counts as something else.

I had a nagging feeling though, so I pulled out my Shrike model. Built and painted him right out of the GW blister. Guess what? He's not WYSIWYG. Wargear entry says he has a bolt pistol, the model does not have one visible. Guess I might have to rectify that problem.

Actually, included items are not required to be shown on the model. Its purchased options or upgrades that are required.

InquisitorFabius wrote:Actually, included items are not required to be shown on the model. Its purchased options or upgrades that are required.

Right, I just read through the WYSIWYG rule again in the rulebook. You're quite right as far as RAW goes. I guess RAI is to play a model with the specific figure sold by GW for said model, and if you're upgrading use the appropriate bits to do so. Once you open WYSIWYG up to alternative models, you're opening a can of worms in my opinion.

i'd be fine with the vanguard vets and i'm fairly sure most tournies would be too. there is nothing stopping someone from festooning their regular assault marines with various post it notes, purity seals, and *caution* grimdark tape yet still calling them normal assault marines. as for the landraider, as long as it was a friendly game and you had it on your army list, i wouldn't care if you used a redeemer as a crusader. in a tourney, i wouldn't like it. tournies are timed events generally and (depending on the army) you might want to play until the end of the game instead of timing out since some armies are better late game than early (eldar). spending time confirming what a non-WYSIWIG model actually has isn't a good idea in that environment. in a no pressure situation like a friendly game i have no problem with people trying out new combos as long as they're consistent (if they have 3 kans with skorchas and want to try rokkits, i'd ask that ALL 3 be rokkits to avoid confusion).

Lunchboxx wrote:Magnets and flat headed push pins are your BEST friend in you are looking to save money. Ive saved a TON of cash by using magnets in my armies.

dang i hadnt thought of that with the push pins i was always double magnet. Thanks.


in casual play... whatever you and your opponent agree on.


in tournament, ask the organizer, or read the rules alot of tournaments are wysiwyg so subbing isnt allowed.

The keys to reasonably using "counts as" are:

Make sure you have a well formatted and clearly written army list.

Make sure you always point out to your opponent what they are and ask his permission always always always.

Use no other versions of that model to count as something else: if you use vanguard as assault marines, don't use a vanguard model for anything else. Most people can handle it, it becomes unreasonable when things like "these CSM are plague marines, but these over here are still CSM, and these over here are thousand sons" occur.

But still, just ask the tournament organizer, opinions vary widely on WYSIWYG.

So im about to put together mod and paint 16 mega nobs for gangus. i have both of the models comeing with the scorchas and rockets. as far as WYSIWYG, i never realy add much to a mega nob as they are meaty as is. would they have much of an issue with that? or should i mod them to be pure mega nobs no extras? my paint jobs are normally very detailed and semi pro looking. what do you guys think on this?

Hydeckadecka wrote:So im about to put together mod and paint 16 mega nobs for gangus. i have both of the models comeing with the scorchas and rockets. as far as WYSIWYG, i never realy add much to a mega nob as they are meaty as is. would they have much of an issue with that? or should i mod them to be pure mega nobs no extras? my paint jobs are normally very detailed and semi pro looking. what do you guys think on this?

Personally, I'd make them WYSIWYG, not only by the rulebook (meaning upgraded equipment), but their current equipment as far as weapons and options go. If you want the option of possibly changing in the future, or think you might do shortly, magnetize the weapon options.

But it really depends on who you're going to be playing mainly, and if you're going to take them to a strict WYSIWYG tournament or not. If your normal group allows counts as or that models may have stuff on them that they haven't bought on your current list, it's all fine. And really also boils down to how you want to model them, you're the owner, you're the one who's going to be looking at them most of the time, what pleases you visually?

Talking about land raiders, how can you even tell the differences between a crusader and redeemer and <insert variant>? I play against IG and SM and just always say "I shoot/assault the predator/land raider". Is it THAT big a difference what their suffix is? I'm sure this question sounds stupid but isn't a predator or land raider just a predator or land raider like my carnifex is just a carnifex? I have a carnifex with a venom cannon and barbed strangler, why isn't a predator annihilator just a predator with lascannons? I get really confused trying to remember the names of all these variants it keeps causing me problems when they say what they have and I forget which guns go with which variant.

A great example is my friend says, "I'm running a vanquisher, punisher, and demolisher." I reply with, "So you've got three leman russ tanks?" and he goes, "No, vanquisher, punisher, and demolisher." then I just stare at him. THEY ARE ALL THE SAME TANK!! Why do I have to memorize the freaking variants!?

Sorry for the rant but I am so very confused as to why this is such a severe issue in games. Can anyone help clarify?

Gandair wrote:Talking about land raiders, how can you even tell the differences between a crusader and redeemer and <insert variant>? I play against IG and SM and just always say "I shoot/assault the predator/land raider". Is it THAT big a difference what their suffix is?

You tell the difference by their weaponry. You no longer have a Land Raider base tank that upgrades its weapons, you have different types entirely. Not only are the weapon loadouts different, but the transport capacity.

I'm sure you don't want to run up to a land raider, only to find out that it has flamestorm cannons, S6 AP3 template. Hurricane bolters and twinlinked assault cannon aren't so bad, except he can move 6" and fire it all (except if he has bought an additional multimelta), plus that particular tank has a transport capacity of 16 models, rather than the normal 12.

As for leman russ variants, weaponry (and armor value in some cases I think) varies.

You don't have to memorize the variants, nor the weapons if it doesn't matter to you, some armies rely more on tactics than just moving all your guys forward until you get into close combat. I'd like to see what I'm facing, so I know how to deal with it. It takes a few games of meeting something until I remember the rules for their weapons etc, but it does help. Otherwise I'll keep asking during the game.

I mean hell, why do you even bother to learn that they're leman russ tanks? Should just shrug and say they're tincans and you're going to tear them open to have a peek inside.

You have a point though, an IG player telling me the name of a tank doesn't tell me much, I have them all confused, I'll know em when I see em. I will however ask them before the game (or during) what weapons those particular tanks have, and what the weapon stats are. Learning everything for every single army in the game might be a pain, but in some cases it will pay off. Personally, I stick to learning as I go by.

Johnno wrote:
Hurricane bolters and twinlinked assault cannon aren't so bad, except he can move 6" and fire it all (except if he has bought an additional multimelta), plus that particular tank has a transport capacity of 16 models, rather than the normal 12.

a vehicle moving 6" or less can fire 1 Main gun, and all defensive weapons (S4 or under).
Land Raiders have Power of the Machine Spirit and may fire 1 extra gun
Twin Linked Assault Cannon (single main gun firing)
Hurricane Bolter (defensive)
Hurricane Bolter (defensive)
-optional- Storm Bolter (defensive)
-optional- Multimelta (power of the machine spirit)

a Land Raider Crusader can move 6" and fire Everything... unless it has a Multimelta AND an unused Hunter-Killer Missle

Right you are Demogerg, thanks. Can you tell I don't have a Crusader?

I only have a normal Land Raider, and haven't played it much after defensive weapons were downgraded to S4. Don't really have anything to have in it at the moment either, as I can't play my terminators, built them into a command squad back in 4th... 2 assault cannons and a captain. So need to paint up some more termies before I can field them again.

So guys - if I have three deffcoptas (from Blackreach set) should i modify to fit buzzsaws to them? Not sure how I would do that!

Taloncab wrote:So guys - if I have three deffcoptas (from Blackreach set) should i modify to fit buzzsaws to them? Not sure how I would do that!

Just chop up some bits of plastic sprue and glue them to the bottom of the tail fin and say it's a buzzsaw. As long as you can tell the buzzsaw koptas from the non buzzsaws you should be fine.

Take some chainswords and glue them to the front.

Taloncab wrote:So guys - if I have three deffcoptas (from Blackreach set) should i modify to fit buzzsaws to them? Not sure how I would do that!

If they're going to have the upgrade, then yes, you should. There's all sorts of bits you could use, I recall seeing a circular saw arm for Orks. There's the sentinel chainsaw arm as well. Could tinker something up from a couple spare chainswords or something I'm sure. Or just make some simple plasticard powerclaws for the pilots. Just something to signify that they have a powerful close combat weapon is what I'm thinking.

Thanks all. Chainswords it is then!