Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Many people on the forums here talk about 40k as if it's corrupt or a completely broken system (yet they play 40k and buy products from GW). First of all, you all have to understand, the "rules" were intended to be just guidelines. This isn't like a video-game where verything is definite and perfectly controlled. This game uses imagination, so the rules could not possibly cover any and all situations. They weren't meant to be Iron-Hard. I'm not trying to bash revising and improving the rules, but to expect humans to perfectly execute and release something completely compatable to everybody's mind and imagination is absurd and ignorant. (Any D&D players should know what I'm talking about.) The bottom line is when you ask yourself, "Am I having any fun doing this?" and you answer, "Yes," that's really all that matters. You make your own rules for certain situations.

[Quoted from the rulebook:] The most important rule is that rules aren't the most important thing.

People nowadays seem to fail to understand and grasp these concepts and game structure. Either that, or the reason stated in the title.

People have always complained, and always will. However complaints don't mean you don't like and enjoy something. If anything the people that complain are always pressing things to get better. There is also that sitting around and talking about how good something works, or how great the fluff is-just isn't as fun. Everybody has an 'ideal' in their own mind, even if that isn't met, it doesn't mean you don't appreciate it.

Wow, you're playing with freaking fire man, I'll leave it at that.

Ok, here's the problem with the rules. To you, the casual gamer, rules aren't all that important (and I'll admit that I'm no rules lawyer) but to competitive players, there is a HUGE difference.

Things like the Grey Knight Grand Masters Force Weapon, Valkyries Transporting Terminators and Terminator Librarians with sweeping advance are annoying.

You cannot just "use your imagination" during a tournament, or any type of game with competition being the theme.

You have to understand that people WILL complain, no matter what, so rather than making a thread that will most certainly involve flaming, off topic posting, and thread lock isn't going to do anything.

Also, GW needs to make the FAQ's as actual official rulings. Without some sort of official ruling, all we have is RAI vs. RAW (A war which will never end)

I posted this thread perfectly aware that I would recieve some critisism and flaming. I wanted to put my thoughts in a place where the people targeted would read and hopefully SHUT-UP a little bit. We all know about the flaws of the game, and no game is perfect.

That said, I also know that doesn't mean don't people appreciate the game, but I feel the game is given more crap than deserved.

(This is also not out-of-place. This is about 40k, so I put it in "40k General Discussion".)

Alright my 6 cents are down.
FLAME AWAY YOU BUNCH OF Deleted by Inquistion

Cryonicleech wrote:...so rather than making a thread that will most certainly involve flaming, off topic posting, and thread lock isn't going to do anything.

Do you really think it's that bad here? I guess the premise of the thread starts out somewhat negative, but isn't that a great reason to have a thread? For discussion sake? It would sadden me if the case is otherwise.

As for that, your argument about rules has always been one I can't relate too, only respect. I would imagine that if I played often I would be rather vocal about broken rules, or more importantly be vocal about finding an appropriate fix, even if it is just a fan FAQ. And as for tournaments, don't they rule on them if there is any issue?

jabbakahut wrote:

Cryonicleech wrote:...so rather than making a thread that will most certainly involve flaming, off topic posting, and thread lock isn't going to do anything.

Do you really think it's that bad here? I guess the premise of the thread starts out somewhat negative, but isn't that a great reason to have a thread? For discussion sake? It would sadden me if the case is otherwise.

As for that, your argument about rules has always been one I can't relate too, only respect.

Well I came from playing a game called "dungeons and Dragons" and the game is driven completely by imagination, so not all the rules would work all the time. I didn't mean to say "Don't fix broken rules". I just meant that they won't be perfect.

I for one agree that the claims that 40k is a 'broken' game is far from accurate, as are the claims of broken races.

I have lost to my friends necrons more times than I dare count. And as for 40k games in general, I've almost always had fun in a match. (whether or not I get pummeled)

@ Op
i suggest you browsing through YMDC before claiming rules are clear.

@Luna: He's not claiming that the rules are always clear, he's just saying that people get hung up over the details and miss the fun of what is essentially a very good game.

jabbakahut wrote:

Cryonicleech wrote:...so rather than making a thread that will most certainly involve flaming, off topic posting, and thread lock isn't going to do anything.

Do you really think it's that bad here? I guess the premise of the thread starts out somewhat negative, but isn't that a great reason to have a thread? For discussion sake? It would sadden me if the case is otherwise.

Look, when these threads keep popping up, it gets pretty damn annoying.

I can understand the need to discuss, but these discussions end with such a predictable and annoying ends that there really isn't a point to them, the discussion just becomes a flame fest.

ZacktheChaosChild wrote:First of all, you all have to understand, the "rules" were intended to be just guidelines. This isn't like a video-game where verything is definite and perfectly controlled. This game uses imagination, so the rules could not possibly cover any and all situations. They weren't meant to be Iron-Hard.

I'm sorry but this is nonsense. The reason that 40K has all these problems is that it tries to deal with every special case by having a special rule or exception. This approach is fundamentally inadequate, as you correctly point out.

Other systems do not have this problem as they are simply more elegant and have much less need for special cases.

The approach taken by 40K also has the problem that the many special cases make the rules much more difficult to learn (especially since the rule book is poorly formatted).

OP, what other systems do you play?

Complaining about those who complain just makes them complain more. Your throwing gasoline on the fire that is their tears.

OP: YOU, have to understand firstly that not everyone is looking for the same thing out of the game as you are, some are Tounament palyers, some like the fluff, etc, and each person has his or her dislikes. you say the rules are just a guideline, but they are not in tounament. tournaments try not to have any grey areas what so ever, no one attending is thinking of having a easy game, and on the spot house rules. (well not till the 3rd or 4th match anyway) the empisis is on rules, winning and having fun.
I ve said before, there is a differenece between the GW company and the games it produces. This further seperates each of us as some are die hard fans of every aspect, others just of the painting and maybe the fluff.
Truth be told were very individual in our likes and dislikes, and thank gawd or every mini would still be a bastardized version of Blanchitzu (*shudders*, give it up John your never gonna wina deamon)
My advice is dont let our or anyone elses rant get on your case. have fun ignore what you dont like, oh and did i mention have fun?

ZacktheChaosChild wrote:Many people on the forums here talk about 40k as if it's corrupt or a completely broken system (yet they play 40k and buy products from GW). First of all, you all have to understand, the "rules" were intended to be just guidelines. This isn't like a video-game where verything is definite and perfectly controlled. This game uses imagination, so the rules could not possibly cover any and all situations. They weren't meant to be Iron-Hard. I'm not trying to bash revising and improving the rules, but to expect humans to perfectly execute and release something completely compatable to everybody's mind and imagination is absurd and ignorant. (Any D&D players should know what I'm talking about.) The bottom line is when you ask yourself, "Am I having any fun doing this?" and you answer, "Yes," that's really all that matters. You make your own rules for certain situations.

[Quoted from the rulebook:] The most important rule is that rules aren't the most important thing.

People nowadays seem to fail to understand and grasp these concepts and game structure. Either that, or the reason stated in the title.

Complaining about complainers. The irony here is palpable.

People like to complain about people complaining.

The rules aren't iron hard and no-one reasonable would expect that. However, people are right to be disappointed when they are marshmallow soft.

Complaining about people complaining just gives them more to complain about. The only way to stop the complaining is to dry up the source.

Here is the thing OP , a rule is not only a guide line to how to play a game. But its supposed to be something adamant to look to when 2 people need a way to settle a game issue they cant agree on.

I have found most people that complain about the rules are the same people looking for loopholes to abuse. First you have to make your case that a rule is poorly written, then you can rewrite to work as you like. I've seen these types of arguments many many times. In truth 5th edition is the tightest ruleset yet. Sure there might be some people don't like such as complex units but that doesn't mean they are broke or need to be modified.

G

Cryonicleech wrote:

jabbakahut wrote:

Cryonicleech wrote:...so rather than making a thread that will most certainly involve flaming, off topic posting, and thread lock isn't going to do anything.

Do you really think it's that bad here? I guess the premise of the thread starts out somewhat negative, but isn't that a great reason to have a thread? For discussion sake? It would sadden me if the case is otherwise.

Look, when these threads keep popping up, it gets pretty damn annoying.

I can understand the need to discuss, but these discussions end with such a predictable and annoying ends that there really isn't a point to them, the discussion just becomes a flame fest.

I am glad to be of service and post quality threads.

@Scott-S6
I've played Warmachine/Hordes, at-43, and many more to where I really don't care to remember them all. 40k is my favorite.

I have to agree a bit with the OP. GW is uniquely negligent in supporting it's rules with FAQs and Errata, and there are times when it simply shows that there was little to no playtesting. That said, many of the accusations about the rules are a little hyperbolic.

That there are tighter rule sets cannot be denied, but I haven't seen a tighter rule set with the breadth of playable forces. It might exist, but I haven't seen it. And that's really the problem: not with the core rules, but with the interaction between the core rules and codices, and between codices.

Additionally, and I know that the regulars in YMDC disagree, but most of the rules controversies could be resolved by using common sense, analogizing to similar situations, and simply not caring when the result isn't' horribly abusive.

BTW, this is why you tend not to see tournament gamers in YMDC very much. We don't really care what the answer is, we just want one.

A lot of people also take what they see in YMDC with a grain of salt. It just makes sense.

G

Ironic really.
Someone makes a thread complaining about people who complain.
Hypocrite.

Then, by your train of thought, everyone posting in this thread (yes, including you) is a hypocrite.

I did not complain.
I simply proved a point.

Wow just wow...

* face palm *

GBF, are you going to say it or should i?

My lips are sealed

G

Then ill leave it as this.

Everybody on this thread is complaining...

I just lulz'd! Oh noes!!!