Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Green Blow Fly wrote:I have found most people that complain about the rules are the same people looking for loopholes to abuse. First you have to make your case that a rule is poorly written, then you can rewrite to work as you like. I've seen these types of arguments many many times.

G

Quote. For Fething. Truth.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I lol can't lol stop loling

This thread...so...funny...

I agree. The thread is entertaining the hell out of me.

So much for the discussion.


In b-Fawr Lawk.

EIN BEFAR LAWK

Sorry for the double post.

It's really a silly topic if you stop to think about it... Complaining about complaining. Kettle meet pot.

G

Four.

That's the number I've counted on this thread are complaining about me complaining about other people complaining, and thinking they aren't adding to the complainy-ness, and "Proving a point". Keep going guys, this is pure facking comedy!

I refer back to the thread,

PEOPLE ARE KILLING WARHAMMER

...thread. *ahem* That is all.

ZacktheChaosChild wrote:Four.

That's the number I've counted on this thread are complaining about me complaining about other people complaining, and thinking they aren't adding to the complainy-ness, and "Proving a point". Keep going guys, this is pure facking comedy!

What the hell?

You spew out all this chedder-feth about people complaining and that it's a "serious discussion?"

Yes, I'm complaining. Take that!

I'm also complaining.
The complaints that are being recieved by the complainer about complaining dakkaites is really quite worthy of complaint.

Harry Truman, Doris Day, Red China, Johnnie Ray
South Pacific, Walter Winchell, Joe DiMaggio

Joe McCarthy, Richard Nixon, Studebaker, television
North Korea, South Korea, Marilyn Monroe

Rosenbergs, H-Bomb, Sugar Ray, Panmunjom
Brando, "The King and I", and "The Catcher in the Rye"

Eisenhower, vaccine, England's got a new queen
Marciano, Liberace, Santayana goodbye

We didn't start the fire
It was always burning
Since the world's been turning
We didn't start the fire
No we didn't light it
But we tried to fight it

This song/picture remind me of this argument, derp.

Polonius wrote:I have to agree a bit with the OP. GW is uniquely negligent in supporting it's rules with FAQs and Errata, and there are times when it simply shows that there was little to no playtesting. That said, many of the accusations about the rules are a little hyperbolic.

That there are tighter rule sets cannot be denied, but I haven't seen a tighter rule set with the breadth of playable forces. It might exist, but I haven't seen it. And that's really the problem: not with the core rules, but with the interaction between the core rules and codices, and between codices.

Additionally, and I know that the regulars in YMDC disagree, but most of the rules controversies could be resolved by using common sense, analogizing to similar situations, and simply not caring when the result isn't' horribly abusive.

BTW, this is why you tend not to see tournament gamers in YMDC very much. We don't really care what the answer is, we just want one.

Yes, this is absolutely correct. It is the way codexes are written and interact with the main rules, doubled up by the problem of old codexes. Basically it is because GW write so many special rules into the codexes, on top of the universal special rules in the main set.

ZacktheChaosChild wrote:
@Scott-S6
I've played Warmachine/Hordes, at-43, and many more to where I really don't care to remember them all. 40k is my favorite.

40K is my favourite as well but not because of the rules - because of the models, background, flexible army lists, etc.

Have you not found that many other rulesets are easier to learn and have many fewer holes?

Yesterday I decided to get into Necromunda with my gaming group, as our lunch times were steadily turning from RPGs to Mt:G. Not that I don't enjoy a good game of Magic, but it is the RPG club.

Now, maybe its just because I've already been endoctrinated in the ways of GW games, but those rules seem much more fluid than 5th. Combats would get resolved faster, cover would become relevant for MEQs. You'd to tweek it for the larger scale: get rid of weapon malfunctions, simplify blast systems, replace hiding with going to ground, etc.

I know the system is similiar to 2nd Edition, and I appreciate the irony of it.

warpcrafter wrote:Complaining about people complaining just gives them more to complain about. The only way to stop the complaining is to dry up the source.

Now im complaining about you complaining about people complaining about they who complain about the rules (yes, i like the word complain).
P.S: Please let it stop here

ZacktheChaosChild wrote:People these days just like to complain

Six thousand years ago this might have been something new and worth pointing out.

Vladsimpaler wrote:

ZacktheChaosChild wrote:Many people on the forums here talk about 40k as if it's corrupt or a completely broken system (yet they play 40k and buy products from GW). First of all, you all have to understand, the "rules" were intended to be just guidelines. This isn't like a video-game where verything is definite and perfectly controlled. This game uses imagination, so the rules could not possibly cover any and all situations. They weren't meant to be Iron-Hard. I'm not trying to bash revising and improving the rules, but to expect humans to perfectly execute and release something completely compatable to everybody's mind and imagination is absurd and ignorant. (Any D&D players should know what I'm talking about.) The bottom line is when you ask yourself, "Am I having any fun doing this?" and you answer, "Yes," that's really all that matters. You make your own rules for certain situations.

[Quoted from the rulebook:] The most important rule is that rules aren't the most important thing.

People nowadays seem to fail to understand and grasp these concepts and game structure. Either that, or the reason stated in the title.

Complaining about complainers. The irony here is palpable.

Kilkrazy wrote:People like to complain about people complaining.

The rules aren't iron hard and no-one reasonable would expect that. However, people are right to be disappointed when they are marshmallow soft.

warpcrafter wrote:Complaining about people complaining just gives them more to complain about. The only way to stop the complaining is to dry up the source.

JD21290 wrote:Ironic really.
Someone makes a thread complaining about people who complain.
Hypocrite.

All QFT.



(And I'm not complaining, I'm mocking )

I love to complain it gets my juices flowing.

ANybody else SMELL the Irony?

Tyyr wrote:

ZacktheChaosChild wrote:People these days just like to complain

Six thousand years ago this might have been something new and worth pointing out.

Oh SNAP!

Complaining about people complaining?!?

But yea its an unfortunate phenomenom with forums. No matter whats its about, a TV show, video game, movie, table top, pod casts, etc --- if the users can be negative then they will be. Imo Dakka is the worst when it comes to GW naysayers since a lot of those topics are a broken record that usually gets locked @ Warseer and BOLS.

One celebrity doctor made an interesting analysis on forum users (he had a board of his own) basically calling a lot of us overly-narcissistic and its hard to argue against that; especially if its the same people over and over saying the same negative things.

Check out World of Warcraft forums...one wonders how that MMORPG is the most successful of its kind with all the hate (most of it misinformed) on its boards. However at least over there our forum account privileges get suspended after your subscription expires.

When I'm paying $28 for a codex, I expect it to be decently written.

Lol, alright swing Ye Olde Modhammer. I've had my fun. This is all just a flame test now. (Though I really don't care what a bunch of teenagers call me on the internet. )

What were your findings?

We will always complain about the rules and make our home rules.

I hate people who tell me I can't complain. I'm off to blog about it some more!

Wut?

World of Warcraft:

Psychiatrists will help those with gaming addiction…in the game.
Yay for progress?

complaining about rules will never stop. Its everywhere!

Fafnir wrote:When I'm paying $28 for a codex, I expect it to be decently written.

QFT.

I know it's often difficult to write something unambiguous, but there are acceptable and unacceptable levels of ambiguity. GW sometimes says it's a mini company, not a game company - but if they're publishing a rule set and asking me to pay hundreds of dollars for it (main book, codex of each army) or even just over fifty dollars for it (main book and one codex), I expect a well-thought-out rule set and game. I pay less than that for a masterpiece three-volume work of fiction that has taken an author a decade to write, or for a coherent and well-thought-out RPG with both lots of fluff and a good ruleset.

There's complaining without purpose, and there's pointing out flaws. My own writing would be terrible if I didn't have others telling me when I made mistakes. If it still ended up being terrible, I would want people to tell me what specifically I should have fixed so that I could learn from the experience.

In summary, not everybody who's complaining is just venting their spleens. Some of us simply believe that the rule set can reasonably be made more understandable and better thought out. Most of us enjoy the game very much even with its flaws, but that doesn't mean we can't talk about those flaws.