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I've been having a problems with Eldar lately especially while running fzorgle.
The following are causing the majority of my problems:

Wraithlords,
Insane Mobility,
Wave Serpents,
Seer Councils,
Fire Dragons

These are all extremely effective counters to my list. Short of taking 3 Havoc sqauds with 4 ML what should I do?
Any other strategies you can provide would be greatly appreciated.

Could you post your list so that we may give pointers?

Here's a facsimile; I don't have the book in front of me at the moment:

2 x DP, mos, los, wings
8 x PM, 2 x melta, pf. champ
10 x CSM, 2 x melta, pf. champ with combi melta, iocg
6 x Oblits

This is the core I usually play with. To make it ~1500 I'd mix and match
some termies, raptors or bezerkers

Hmm not sure how your having a problem with those issue listed.

Wraithlords & Wave Serpents are lascannoned to death from the oblits.

Wave Serpents get squished by DPs, just watch out for the dragons that pile out.

Seer councils will give anyone issues, High shot count them with focus fire... eventually they fail saves .

You may want to consider doing 2x 3 oblit squads and pick up a Defiler.

Its cuz your running a lash list vs something with a farseer... the fact you have a very high chance to fail your main psychic ability (and take a wound in the process) doesn't help at all, especially against the awesomeness of things like seer councils.

I'd honestly go, if your going to counter list, and stick away from anything requiring a psychic test. I don't see why you'd have much trouble with eldar running the rest of what you do, maybe the dice hate you?

I've moved more to a 1x 4 ML havoc squad, 2x Oblit squads setup to help vs. fast skimmers. It makes things a bit better, but they're still tough to down. CSM just have a tough time getting enough heavy weapons to be good at it.

Against eldar, if youre going to use oblits, you have to deepstrike them (in squads of 2) behind rear armour. If you dont do that, theres no point in bringing them, as they simply dont have the # of shots to get through 5+ pen armour, and 4+ save.

Realize that 2 havocs with missle launchers is less points than 1 oblit, and put out more firepower. More durable too, so those pesky fire dragons cant annihilate the entire squad with only 2-3 shots.

Consider autocannon havocs too. They are only 1 strength lower than the maximum against WS, but twice the shots. AP4 means banshees get no save.

People always say dont use fast attack (which I disagree with)...but raptors are really great in this matchup. They can hop over serpents and hit rear armour. They can keep up with them as well, and can assault the unit that comes out of it after you destroy it.

I play Eldar, and one of my best opponents runs CSM. I normally run circles around him, however I am afraid of Princes with wings, and anything that puts out high-strength shots.

The way to beat Seer Councils is to pour firepower into them. They're only T4, and a 3+ 4++. Give them enough (even bolter fire will do) and they'll drop.

Here's my specific concerns with each unit:

Wraithlords: too high toughness, absolutely own my troops
Insane Mobility: jetbikes, skimmers and little to no way of catching them
Wave Serpents: what melta?
Seer Councils: argh, chaos' extreme inability to deal with low inv. saves. I've done 15+ plasma cannon wounds on a unit of these and
they were all saved.
Fire Dragons: uberpwn oblits, DPs, PMs, Rhinos, etc. I have a very little chance of getting these out of their transport before they do their job
Anti Psychic: le sigh, warptime or lash princes become useless
Banshees: make PM or most anything else in assault range go bye bye.

Note: I don't really want to metagame against Eldar completely. I just want my list to be more balanced so if I ever do fight Eldar I will stand
a chance.

Vache Glace wrote:Here's my specific concerns with each unit:

Wraithlords: too high toughness, absolutely own my troops (Lascannon with oblits from the other side of the table, done)
Insane Mobility: jetbikes, skimmers and little to no way of catching them (use your DPs position them in a fashion to tarpit bikes or serpents into CC, Defilers also wonder wonders here)
Wave Serpents: what melta? (Don't bank on melta vs serpents, use str 8 or CC)
Seer Councils: argh, extreme inability to deal with low inv. saves. I've done 15+ plasma cannon wounds on a unit of these and they were (Bolter them to hell, Mass shots > high power)
all saved.
Fire Dragons (meh)

@Vache Glace:

Wraithlord: well, I don't normally see WL's charging into combat as a main assault element that much.

I mean, meltas and fist give them pause most of the time.

____________

Insane Mobility: The board isn't so big, and they need to commit at some point. I haven't had to many issues catching them eventually with rhino/run/flying princes, summoned lesser daemons and stuff like that.

Termicides can at least catch up a turn.

Serpents: I still use meltas to down serpents...what's the problem?
Sure you don't get 2D6...but str 8 is still very decent against av 12...and the energy shield does NOTHING against the AP1.

SeerCouncils are annoying, but they can be tarpitted and they can be weighted down by mass small arms, rerollable armor saves or not.

Night Lords wrote:Against eldar, if youre going to use oblits, you have to deepstrike them (in squads of 2) behind rear armour. If you dont do that, theres no point in bringing them, as they simply dont have the # of shots to get through 5+ pen armour, and 4+ save.

I agree! But the problem is w/o oblits on the field all the firepower goes into my lash princes or rhinos and once my mobility is gone
I've lost.

Realize that 2 havocs with missle launchers is less points than 1 oblit, and put out more firepower. More durable too, so those pesky fire dragons cant annihilate the entire squad with only 2-3 shots.

Consider autocannon havocs too. They are only 1 strength lower than the maximum against WS, but twice the shots. AP4 means banshees get no save.

lol I love autocannon havocs, too bad they don't have tank hunters or infiltrate anymore!

People always say dont use fast attack (which I disagree with)...but raptors are really great in this matchup. They can hop over serpents and hit rear armour. They can keep up with them as well, and can assault the unit that comes out of it after you destroy it.

I like raptors as well but they're survivability is awful and getting the 12' flight doesn't help when you're opponent stacks all their
vehicles together so I can't get to the rear.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sanctjud wrote:@Vache Glace:

Wraithlord: well, I don't normally see WL's charging into combat as a main assault element that much.

I mean, meltas and fist give them pause most of the time.

Agreed
____________

Insane Mobility: The board isn't so big, and they need to commit at some point. I haven't had to many issues catching them eventually with rhino/run/flying princes, summoned lesser daemons and stuff like that.

I think it's just the fact that Eldar pretty much always get the first shot and assault on all my units

Termicides can at least catch up a turn. Yea but they bleed killpoints, I lost the last tournament I went to only because of KP issues

Serpents: I still use meltas to down serpents...what's the problem?
Sure you don't get 2D6...but str 8 is still very decent against av 12...and the energy shield does NOTHING against the AP1.

Say I have 2 meltas and a combi in a squad of CSM, on average that's 2 hitting, 1 glance/pen and then I still have to roll well to
do anything. And that's W/O the cover save!!!! I guess it's the fact that I'm hurling a 250+ point unit into a transport and rarely
even doing anything to it is annoying. Then my men are exposed after leaving the rhino and all die to shooting in 1 turn.

SeerCouncils are annoying, but they can be tarpitted and they can be weighted down by mass small arms, rerollable armor saves or not. agreed, Plague Marines work very well against Seer Council. Just have to watch for banshees and WL's.

I'm not to worried about WL's in combat, I have fists and the most attacks they have is 2.

Banshees only register on the threat meter if doom is involved...even then...
Lack of charge attacks and only wounding on 6's.../shrug, never been an issue for me.

As for meltas vs. serpents, sure it looks bad, but I've never had problems with meltas downing serpents...
Hitting on 3's isn't so bad.
Glancing on 4's isn't so bad either.
Then unlike normal glances... melta glances can kill.

A cover save is a cover save, nothing new or suprising with 5th ed. If they are moving flat out, they have pros and cons in doing so.

Sounds like you need some mechanized help.

Wraithlords really fizzle when encountered with lots of rhinos. If you keep your distance, they can't really do a lot. 3 attacks on the charge is really hoping for a lot of good luck to kill a vehicle, and their single-shot weapons are really a waste of points when firing at a tank - especially just considering the odds per shot of blowing one up.

Wave serpents can pop tanks, depending on their loadout, but if you go heavy infantry in rhinos, you'll outnumber him. One wave serpent costs as much as three rhinos, just about. And if fire dragons get out to pop a tank, they're TOAST afterwards.

A defiler could serve you well. Number one, you know the fire dragons will be going for it, so you can set a trap for them. I've always been a big proponent of "there are no traps in 40k" because the enemy can SEE all of your units. But they'll still go after it, and you can make them pay when they do. The reason the defiler is there is for those banshees you seem to have trouble with. There's just not a whole lot they can do to it, and honestly with a twin-linked heavy flamer and lash of submission, it's a 1-stop answer to that problem. Most people will blow off its battle cannon given the chance, so use that to your advantage and get it into an assault following the heavy flamer.

Meltas handle wraithlords handily. Also you can use daemon princes on them. Sure you need 6's to wound, but you only need 3 of them, and while he wounds on a 2, he's only got 2 attacks that need 4's to hit. If you're worried about that, put powerfists in your squads.

Seer Council is fun to box in with rhinos once they're out of their serpents. Which is something I want to touch on:

EVERYTHING the eldar have has to get out of their vehicles to do any damage. They don't have fire points. Stay in yours and force them to disembark in order to bring more firepower into the game. When they do that, pounce on them. Stick together, keep your units close so they can obliterate any eldar that try to get to you.

Thx for the advice Spellbound!

EVERYTHING the eldar have has to get out of their vehicles to do any damage. They don't have fire points. Stay in yours and force them to disembark in order to bring more firepower into the game. When they do that, pounce on them. Stick together, keep your units close so they can obliterate any eldar that try to get to you.

The only thing I have issue with is that when I stay in rhino clump formation the seer council can surround one and instagib everything
inside when they destroy it.

Here's a list I'm thinking of trying. Really the only thing I ever change is the loadout of the CSM and the Chosen. I could swap in
Terminators, Raptors, Havocs or Bezerkers depending on what is best.

HQ
Daemon Prince x1 Wings, Mos, Los 155
Daemon Prince x1 Wings, Mos, Los 155

Troops
PM x7 Pf. Champ, 2 x Melta 221
CSM x10 Pf. Champ, Plasmagun, Lascannon, iocg 235

Elites
Chosen x7 Meltagun x 5 176

Heavy Support
Obliterators x3 225
Obliterators x3 225


Non-FOC
Rhino x3 105

Total: 1497

This'll sound crazy, but drop the oblits, at least one squad of them. You've got almost 1/3 of your army tied up in 6 models that are begging to be nuked by fire dragons. For that 450 points you can get like 3 squads of 5 marines with a meltagun each in a rhino. Drop the powerfist champion to make that las/plas squad into another 2xmelta squad and you can probably squeeze in another, for a total of 1 10-man squad with 2 meltaguns and 4 5-man squads with a meltagun, each in a rhino. Then buy all your rhinos combi-meltaguns to make each of them into an anti-tank threat.

When he gets out of a vehicle to handle one target, annihilate him!