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So this guy Jeff is painting his Space Wolves and I'm talking all kinds of trash about how being a blood drinking lunatic is better than being a feral lunatic.

We're gonna throw down and see what's what!!

Here's my very list leaning towards very fluffy, his list is also will also be very fluffy but not done yet.

So what do you think?

Thanks,
Dave

HQ
Lemartes

Elites
Death Company (5)
JP

Furioso Dreadnought
Death Company
Venerable
Heavy Flamer
Drop Pod

Furioso Dreadnought
Death Company
Venerable
Heavy Flamer
Drop Pod

Troops
Assault Squad
10 Marines
PF
MB

Assault Squad
10 Marines
PF
MB

Fast Attack
Speeder w MM and AC

Speeder w MM and AC

Heavy Support
Devastators (5)
Missile Launchers x4

Devastators (5)
Plasma Cannon x4

I would drop both Dev squads and use the points to up your two assault squads. Also I would trade the DC upgrade on your two dreads for extra armor.

G

That's not alot of troops for a 1750.

Sorry both Assault Squads are 10 guys Its supposed to read Assault Squad +5 Extra Marines---edited to read correctly.

Devs were just cause I had them.
I might get two Baal Predators soon if this deal works out.

I lost one DC marine and got 5 tac squad guys

Added extra armor onto the Dreads

Can't bring myself to get rid of the Assault Cannons on the Speeders, but that would free up enough point for 5 extra tac marines...

So heres a new list with that... Any better??

HQ
Lemartes

Elites
Death Company (4)
JP

Furioso Dreadnought
Venerable
Death Company
Heavy Flamer
Extra Armor
Drop Pod

Furioso Dreadnought
Venerable
Death Company
Heavy Flamer
Extra Armor
Drop Pod

Troops
Assault Squad (10)
PF
MB

Assault Squad (10)
PF
MB

Tactical Squad (5)
PW
Plasma Gun
Rhino

Fast Attack
Speeder w/ MM & AC

Speeder w/ MM & AC

Heavy Support
Baal Predator

Baal Predator

The DC upgrade on the dreads isn't worth the extra attacks.

G

Well, the 2nd list with the Baal Predators looks much better.
The small Rhino squad is a bit pointless.

Go with the Baal Preds over the devs. Only 4 DC guys... the strength of the BA army is the DC?! I don't ever take my BA army out of the box unless it's got it's full 10 man complement of DC. Instead of the assault squads, I usually use tac squads in rhinos and then use the rhinos to be a rolling shield for a full 10 man DC squad.

If you are running two Baals those are the points you need to field a landraider. A landraider is an optimal unit for Blood Angels. While two Baals can belch out more shots than a landraider the landraider is more resilient than two Baals and over the course of a game it will yield better results. The two twin linked lascannons is answer to heavily mechanized armies which are more prevalent than hordes. Of course this could well change with the new bugz codex on the horizon.

G

Starting to like this more. Lots of redundant stuffs, only the DC and RAS are singular.
The Rhino/Predator screen does seem like a good idea. I did get rid of the assault cannons on the speeders, just too expensive, and I can't decide if those Tac Squads need some fists. Where would I get the points for that?

Now I could get rid of something to make the DC 10 man... What would you ditch to get a full Death Company?

HQ
Lemartes

Elites
Death Company (5)
JP

Furioso Dreadnought
Venerable
Death Company
Heavy Flamer
Extra Armor
Drop Pod

Furioso Dreadnought
Venerable
Death Company
Heavy Flamer
Extra Armor
Drop Pod

Troops
Assault Squad (10)
PF
MB

Tactical Squad (10)
Meltagun
Multimelta
Rhino

Tactical Squad (10)
Meltagun
Multimelta
Rhino

Fast Attack
Speeder w/ MM

Speeder w/ MM

Heavy Support
Baal Predator

Baal Predator

I would drop the DC upgrade on the draeds.

G

The DC on the dreads really lets them handle just about anything on their own. The extra attacks are especially important against moving vehicles since hitting them is kinda difficult...

Four S10 attacks at I4 minimum!!!

And it is perfect Blood Angels Fluff!!! What's better than a rampaging berserker? A rampaging berserker is an a giant walking sarcophagus of course!!

Kind of chaosy, whoohooohohohoooooo...

Plus its only enough points for 1 DC marine.

Not gonna get rid of the DC Dreads.

(eight total exclamation marks in this post)

Well, to save a few points at least you could change the speeders into attack bikes to shave off 30 points to either boost up the dc (and drop a mb somewhere to give him a jp); or use the points for a pf, or two power weapons.

And I'm assuming the baal preds have the hb sponsons?

Though it would take some work, I agree in maximizing DC; getting the points to do so would be tricky for your list, but being able to roll 40 attacks on the charge and re-rolling misses with lemartes is very nasty.

Just a note here, but your going against power armour, so you need to taylor a list towards that.

Baal's work well, but a vindi would cause alot more damage, ignore saves, and deliver instant death to allmost everything.
The DC upgrade really isnt worth it, i used to allways take it, but after a while ive found its a waste.
You dont need the dread for hunting down units, as with pups they will have fists or hammers.

If you do take dev's, then i would go with 4 plasma cannons.
Simply because you have 4 high str templates that ignore thier saves each turn.
You also have the range with them.

Chances are he will be taking a special character, so you might aswell do the same.

Dante can hit well, but can be ID by anything S8+
Mephiston is slightly better, in that it needs to be S10 to ID him.
He also has a force wep, D3 attacks and can move as jump infantry.


If your taking DC i wouldnt piss about with 5.
The unit even with lem or a basic chappy is far too weak, they will get torn apart in massed combats.

Just saying, I think the guys on the floating mountain will win from sure wolfyness

That being said, any idea what your foe MIGHT run? if he does drop pod assault SW he'll tear your troop choices apart quickly. As well, if he runs dreads as well, SW dreads get that necklace that lets em hit on 3+, makes them beasts in H2H vs any other walker.

Space wolves are far less mech reliant than most marines. I really suggest dropping the missile launcher devs and get something else. Plasma cannons will rock in your match up. And I don't know what DC terminators do, but hopefully they;re a good counter to wolf guard. All those durn power weapons are painful!

Zid, need to keep all termies away from pup claws lol, they tend to hurt pretty bad.
So against pup termies its a case of shoot them to death (plasma cannons )


OP: Any idea what he runs in the list?

I know he's running as many crazy psykers as he can and that's all I know. He's building the army from scratch right now, its about 70% painted. I'm going to see him at our hobby night tomorrow so I can get some more info then.

I was thinking about fitting in an Inquisitor with psychic hood but I thought that would be a cheap shot

I'm not going to ignore the advice of a prophetic librarian, plus I don't think I'm going to be getting those Baal Preds after all, so here's some more tweaks.

Added Plasma Cannon Devs Back,

Now getting rid of DC on the dreads and getting rid of extra armor at the same time would save 80 points.
Is extra armor really worth it? Maybe since the venerable will have me re-rolling some damage?

If I get rid of the speeders that makes a lot of room for DC, but really screws me if there are any tanks. Thoughts?

HQ
Lemartes

Elites
Death Company (5)
JP

Furioso Dreadnought
Venerable
Death Company
Heavy Flamer
Extra Armor
Drop Pod

Furioso Dreadnought
Venerable
Death Company
Heavy Flamer
Extra Armor
Drop Pod

Troops
Assault Squad (10)
PF

Tactical Squad (10)
Meltagun
Multimelta
Rhino

Tactical Squad (10)
Plasma Gun
Heavy Bolter
Rhino

Fast Attack
Speeder w/ MM

Speeder w/ MM

Heavy Support
Devastators
Plasma Cannons x4

Thanks for all your help so far.

WarmasterScott wrote:That's not alot of troops for a 1750.

Agreed.

--troop issues have been solved-3 ten man squads

Is that still not enough?

3 full 10-man squads is on the low side of acceptable for a 1750 point list. Of course, I may be a little spoiled since playing IG and Nids, both of which have many troop options. Tactical squads are always a safe bet though.

The only thing that confuses me: with the 2nd tactical squad, why outfit them with a heavy bolter heavy weapon? It would make more sense to use a missile launcher.

Think it is a good amount of troops. And you could always combat squad them if you need to keep the heavy weapon portion parked somewhere.

And if he is indeed going psychic heavy then you definitely must fit in a librarian. For now, blood angels psychic hood is still unlimited range; so wherever his psychers are on the board they would have to worry about the power being nullified. I've actually had a lot of fun doing that with Mephiston in an Apoc game nullifying powers over six feet away Which was admitedly a bit cheesy but still fun with all the crazy things that happen in apoc games.

Though do be careful with his rune priests since if you are in range of them they can nullify powers pretty well now.

Just tonight played against wolves and it definitely is advisable to try and soften up their squads with plasma/assault cannons/shooty before assaulting, for their counter charge is brutal with even a basic grey hunter have 3 attacks each with the counter.

Well if your aiming to crush, run a psychic hood! He still has a chance to cast spells, you just have a chance to cancel em. Its not all that cheesetastic, and honestly, you may need it!

The Devs are a bad choice. I would use those points to beef up your DC. I like the speeders though .

The major problem with the DC upgrade for your dreads is that they must always move straight towards the enemy which makes them susceptible to shooting. Sure you are going to drop them right at the doorstep of the enemy line but what about any army that can then move away quickly? Mech lists are very popular. I'm not a fan of dreads in general as they tend to be hit or miss. Also I don't think you need to spend the points on EA if you take the DC upgrade.

G

Well the dreads don't fall prey to the Drop Pod assault rule where they have to come down first turn and get blasted. Blood Angels don't have that rule... YET!!

So the dreads come down about the same time that the Over Charged Rhinos, Assault Squads, and DC are getting there.

So you can bring them down near Lemartes if you want to and have them under control.

So to choose between shooting the Dreads, DC or three troops, not to mention the speeders, is a difficult choice and I plan to focus on one point in their lines with everything.

Since I'm so mobile, mobile armies shouldn't be able to avoid that...

One quick blow is the plan.

The pods can land wherever they want (plus scatter). If you are landing them away from the enemy line to support them with the rest of your army they may have to cross some open ground. You can use the chappie to control them but this limits how much or where you can move him and the Death Company. If you didn't have the DC upgrade you could move the chaplain and Death Company with no restraint. Certainly there are times when it might be best to split them up. Like I said I am not a fan of dreadnaughts. They tend to be hit or miss. Even with the reroll on the AP table if they are immobilized they are pretty much a non factor (unless they are contesting an objective).

G

I guess that the devs and the dreads are the only points of contention here and both are possible overwhelming successes or failures.

If the Plasma Cannons get a volley off at some terminators they are clearly worth it. If the dreads survive that first round of fire after they land and tear into a squad or vehicle they are totally worth it.

Both could be shot or avoided and thereby nullified. So I'll keep an eye on these units and let you know how they perform for me.

Thanks for all the input and ideas everyone.

I just feel your list is going to get driven into the ground because the Dex is complete crap. The Wolves have access to the redeemer and have long fangs to split fire and mow down multiple squads if need be. Also the fact that they can counter charge you is ridiculous... Have fun fighting a losing battle if you end up seeing Ragnar on the board. I would just use the standard SM Dex and use models that look like BA.

Thanks for being so helpful Tsunami!!

The Tsunami wrote:I just feel your list is going to get driven into the ground because the Dex is complete crap. The Wolves have access to the redeemer and have long fangs to split fire and mow down multiple squads if need be. Also the fact that they can counter charge you is ridiculous... Have fun fighting a losing battle if you end up seeing Ragnar on the board. I would just use the standard SM Dex and use models that look like BA.

Unhelpful and also wrong.

Devs suck.

You are spending a god awful amount of points on that dreadnought when he is just going to drop down within meltagun range asap. I think you can figure out why that will be crap.

Right now i don't see a reason why you're not running Red Marines (using nilla codex). Have you built this army? If you want to play angels, I suggest going with using items in their codex that make them BA and not Nilla (Baal, Assault Squads as troops.... 5 ,man squads get special weapons....).

I suggest more assault troops and infantry killers. Space Wolves infantry and cavalry is what makes them sick, if you counter that, you win.

Stick with the Baals, Heavy Bolter Sponsons and A storm bolter. Thats a lot of Shots. Also an assualt cannon is statisticly more likely to pen armour 14 then a lascannon. You need Dante, stick him in the middle either in a large assualt squad or an honour guard and hit em where it hurts. That Debuff of his drops every enemy's BS and WS by one, even vehicles. Unfortunatly you have to stay away from his characters. Space Wolves have possibly the best CC characters in the game. The only thing you may not have to worry about is Thunderwolf Calvery. With no models out you have to convert the Canis model. For a Min squad like 300 dollars.