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How exactly do they work???

I'm reading the book and I'm having trouble seeing how broken they are.

Minus the flamers which are just too sick.

Are there any decent tacticas floating around?

For 12 points you get....

Str 5 , killing blow , Magic Resistance , 5+ ward save , magic attacks , Immune to Psychology ; Fear


12 points...

Well, if you want the generally espoused internet wisdom, I can distill it for you from what I've read:

The entire army is unbreakable, causes fear, and has a ward save.

Bloodthirsters can take on pretty much anything in hand to hand and kill it dead, including ranked blocks from the front. And they get to fly!

Horrors are core choice wizards. Spam magic missles all day.

Flesh hounds are drastically underpriced, hit as hard as heavy cavalry, have two wounds (!) and are hard to hurt with magic (Magic resistance). They excell in blitz lists.

Flamers are, as you have noted, ridiculous.

So a list that uses all these elements will do pretty well, but to be honest, the book is so good you can build something nasty around any theme you want. Probably Bloodletters and Daemonettes aren't that good, but that's it from what I've read.
I don't play Daemons though. So take what I've said with your prefered amount of salt.

LunaHound wrote:
For 12 points you get....

Str 5 , killing blow , Magic Resistance , 5+ ward save , magic attacks , Immune to Psychology ; Fear


12 points...

The unit you mentioned only gets one attack, are toughness 3 and will get shot sooooo badly.

I agree though - very undercosted.

Da Boss wrote:
So a list that uses all these elements will do pretty well, but to be honest, the book is so good you can build something nasty around any theme you want. Probably Bloodletters and Daemonettes aren't that good, but that's it from what I've read.
I don't play Daemons though. So take what I've said with your prefered amount of salt.

I agree Boss. The DoC book is good. IMO it's the best one. I can definatley see why people play them.

I was thinking Mono Tzeentch, but they are so filthy, to even write an army list hurts my eyes.

Mono Khorne is one of my favourite types of army and I might go with them.

For Tourney games I think i'll just mix the two.

Is any of that a good idea?

Here are some GREAT advice i gathered ,

neXus6;3202252 wrote:Make a balanced army, don't be a ****, keep to the old background not this new "pantheon of gods" rubbish GW are pumping out to sell more models, and don't feed the reputation that the WAAC players have created.

The most important thing in a Daemons Tactica thread is to define what your wanting really. Do you want a thread about all the WAAC power game lists? Cause everyone knows that's just Bloodthirster, Flesh hounds, flamers, minimum core, special characters and any variation of that.

The balanced side of things is a lot more fun, and a lot more requiring of a tactica thread.

The synergy of "lesser" units in the list in such an elite army makes it pretty cool, a quick list of things...

Greater Daemons - If you take one in 2000pts your army is going to be very small indeed, personally I'd probably leave it till 2500pts at the least if not higher.

Daemon Prince - Deliberatly set up as a "no-comparison" choice, it's there just to stop people with converted daemon princes from going too berzerk. That said there are some nasty combinations and the use of one will give you some brownie points in the "playing for fun" column.

Heralds - The staple character choice, they enhance your units and some can hit pretty hard on their own. Again though 4 tooled up Heralds in 2000pts will probably make your army pretty small, though bigger than with a Greater Daemon.

Daemonettes - Fast, VERY fast, they don't hit very hard but they should be hitting the flanks of the enemy or at the very least just be adding ranks to a combined charge, charge range means they should be going first against most infantry and 2 attacks each even at strength 3 is nothing to laugh at. Add a herald and ASF adds a lot of protection, and an etherblade lets them deal with tougher targets.

Bloodletters - Elves pretty much, or slow Daemonettes, they hit fairly hard, though 1 attack each is pretty poor. Toughness 3 and a 5+ward won't last very long. Personally I would use them in small units as flankers, simply cause of the 1 attack. Add a herald and Hatred means more of your 6-7 attacks will hit, and also adding his own attacks to that makes them useable as a propper block unit.

Plaguebearers - Big naff really, poison is nice but again they suffer from a low number of attacks for such an expensive and relativly weak unit. Add a Herald and regenerate makes this unit shine. One of the ultimate Anvils, sure they may not kill much but 5+ ward and regen will take some beating.

Horrors - Ah horrors, I would try to avoid minimum sized units like the plague (or the unit above) for blockers/suicide units Daemonettes fit the bill much better as they are faster, a unit upped in size to Lvl 2 is useful as spell 2 is probably one of the best. Lvl 3 is fine too, Lvl 4 size is pretty pointless cause that spell is just woeful. I'd always suggest taking a couple of models over the Level sizes just so you can survive a few casualties without the level dropping. Add a Herald and these larger blocks become a lot more durable, a 4+ ward is pretty good even with a weak combat output making for an okay anvil in an army with no nurgle.

Furies - Flying skirmishers, says it all really. Good for mage hunting, warmachine hunting and as decoys/irritation.

Seekers - One of my personal favourites, very VERY fast, good number of attacks, should be able to make use of combined charges, canceling ranks and also adding a few kills against softer targets. They also make good wizard, skirmisher and warmachine hunters. Add a Herald for much the same bonuses as with normal daemonettes gives it a bit more punch.

Fleshhounds - The heavy cavalry choice, remember this, very few people like playing against an army that is FULL of heavy cavalry. Pretty fast and hit like a lead pipe to the noggin. Heralds give no bonus to this unit, but the presence of the character alone adds a lot of punch.

Screamers - Not really a fan of these myself. Slashing attacks are good but they are so expensive for toughness 3 1 wound models. Furies can do everything these guys can do but better...except slashing attacks.

Nurglings - I'm really not a Nurgle fan so I don't know too much about these. Swarms with ward saves...could be good for a bit of blocking or protecting a caster character/flank.

Fiends - These babies are great. Fast as can be, lots of decent strength avarage attacks, armour piercing and all for almost half the cost of a Bloodcrusher. Great flanking/support unit.

Bloodcrushers - the Elite heavy cavalry. Huge points cost but brilliant. They hit like a veritable tonne of bricks. Adding a Herald to these is probably just overkill but a unit of 3 + a jugger riding herald will make a mess of pretty much anything it hits even if you lose a Crusher or two on the way in.

Flamers - fairly fast skirmishers that spit out d6 s4 shots each. A great choice, but again don't take too many or you are walking back into WAAC territory. Use a few to support the rest of your army rather than a dozen for the hopeful easy win.

Beasts of Nurgle - Pretty weird wee things, but they can hit hard and in a mono nurgle army will be pretty much your only hammers aside from your characters. Again I'm not a nurgle fan but these seem pretty good.

Very basic little run down of the unit choices. I play warhammer for the fun of the game and to challenge myself, I don't see running a WAAC list as helping either of those aims so my opinions are just a tad bias. At the very least remember everything is good in moderation when working together, you don't need to take only the most powerful units and minimum core to have a competative army that can quite easily be done with a balanced list.

So raise the banner high that Daemons need not be a WAAC overpowered army, and claim back a very fun and characterful force from both the WAAC players and GW's bias unit rules, special character pushing and background destroying.

Darth ryanus;3245528 wrote:lets have a look at our magic items sorry gifts.
These are my opinions so feel free to post your ideas.

SPIRIT SWALLOWER
This is quite good you regain a wound for every wound you cause, but there is a downside it takes your whole allowance of gifts so i personaly would avoid it.

AWESOME STRENGTH
This sounds like a good one at first i mean strength 10 is awesome, but again there are problems first it is 75 points and secondly the BT is the only thing that can take it and he is already s6 so ask your self how often is s10 going to be better than strength 6. Only worth taking if you know you are facing lots of t5 and above enemies or the steam tank.

BALESWORD
An auto wounding weapon that causes d6 wounds would be great on a BT(who cant have it) but on a GUO(the only thing that can take it) your opponent can just avoid it to easily.

TWIN HEADS
Now we start getting to the good stuff +2 to all casting is great its almost like an extra power dice that can never miscast. It makes Flickering fires a 1d cast that can wipe out DD fast.

TZEENTCHS WILL
You can reroll any 1 dice from this daemon on each player turn, this can be a big help to avoid miscast's or failed ward saves. I would say that this is a bit to expensive for my tastes.

DARK INSANITY
On a BT you swap 7A for 2d2+2A thtas got to be a bargin at worst you lose 1A on average you gain 1A and at best you gain 7A. If this was 5 points cheaper i would call it a no brainer but as it is it will limit what else you can take.

ETHERBLADE
No AS is very handy in an army lacking in punch. But it does depend on what you are facing, against a horde army it probably is not worth it but against a heavy armour army like WOC this can be a god send. Look at who can take it your herald adds a nice bit of killing power on your challenges if you face heavy Armour but worthless against your average 5+save as you already have a -2. Daemon prince if you add wings then you have a nasty little flying assassin. KOS already has -4 to AS so again unless you know your facing armour dont bother.

MANY ARMED MONSTROSITY
+2A for 50 points is good put this on a DP or Herald to lay out lots of attacks each round great against horde armies but will still lack punch against armour.

NURGLING INFESTATION
create new bases in every magic phase on a 2+ it only needs to work once to pay for itself and on average should create 10 extra bases a game(if the daemon is not killed). If you have 2 GUO's on the board you have the chance to totaly swamp your opponent with hard to kill little speed bumps giving you more precious time to position your troops.

OBSIDIAN ARMOUR
A good save not great compared to other armies but not bad either and negates the magic weapons of what ever you fight Stick this on your BT and go character killing.

SPELL DESTROYER
An expensive dispell scroll that has a 50/50 chance of destroying the spell for the rest of the game not bad in a mono Khorne army but if you have any Tzeentch in your army i think you have better options.

STAFF OF CHANGE
Pure rubbish only useful against multi wound models and most of them will have a decent toughness to avoid the effect.

STAFF OF NURGLE
A bound magic missile is always helpful and not to costly .

TEMPTATOR
If you are using the Slaanesh leadership bomb then take this,if your not then dont almost all armies can avoid this on an average unmodified LD.

TRAPPINGS OF NURGLE
4+AS and regeneration this is a no brainer for your GUO but to expensive for your heralds in my opinion.

POWER VORTEX
30 points for an extra power dice in the pool this will make your horror units very hard to stop or your heralds even harder to counter. If you know your opponent will have little magic so you dont need dispell scrolls take this if they are magic heavy it is a choice between this or the scroll gift.

ALLURE OF SLAANESH
Again great with the Slaaneshy bomb pretty near worthless without.

AXE OF KHORNE
An average gift 25 points for KB is not bad, take it if you have some spare points.

DAEMONIC ROBES
Good on heralds not so good on greater daemons (only effects s8 and above then), i would call this another filler if you have the spare points take it or if you know you are facing lots of cannons.

DARK MAGISTER
Ignore your first miscast great on a LOC but probably not worth it on a herald as you just wont cast enough spells of high level to really risk many miscast's.

ENRAPTURING GAZE
Great against lower LD armies that need a general nearby to stay in the fight or against undead (they cant use the vamps LD for crumble checks).

FIRESTORM BLADE
25 points for +1s and flaming attacks is almost always a no brainer, just dont take it against HE (damn dragon armour).

FLAMES OF TZEENTCH
Turn every herald into a flamer (and we all know how much everyone hates tio fight flamers). Adds a very valuable shooting attack in a army lacking in range.

IMMORTAL FURY
Effectivly permanent hatred every turn sounds good but if your herald and unit are stuck in a drawn out combat he is probably about to die anyway.

IRIDESCENT CORONA
Ok but i do have 1 question for you what are your Tzeentch daemons doing in combat. Take gifts that help you wipe things out from range like magic or shooting once your in combat a couple extra s3 hits are not going to help.

MASTER OF SORCERY
This is amazingly good you get to pick any magic lore in the BRB and know all 6 spells. You can tailor your magic to what you are fighting lots of armour lore of metal, undead or daemons lore of light and so on.

will do more later.

Darth ryanus;3245773 wrote:NOXIOUS VAPOURS
Makes your opponent strike last even HE which is good and its not to expensive.

NURGLES ROT
Good if you get stuck in a combat and as its nurgle this will happen a lot as they are your tarpit unit. Works in any magic phase but only works on a 6+ means it wont do much, probably not really worth the points.

PESTILENT MUCUS
Now this is a good power every time you take a wound there is a chance you will wound every enemy touching you with no armour save that could be useful especialy on a GUO with 10 wounds and regen.

SOPORIFIC MUSK
If you break a unit this means it is most likely dead very handy if you can auto break heavy armoured targets by SCR then just run them down.

SOUL HUNGER
Re-roll wounds for the first turn only. With low strength on most Slaanesh models this can mean the difference between 1 kill and no kills or on your KOS stops those annoying little 1's from ruining your charge.

SPELL BREAKER
This is a dispell scroll need i say more.
OK you can only have 1 per model so no scroll caddies for us and it is only available to Tzeentch for some reason (aren't all daemons creatures of magic).

STREAM OF BILE
This gift makes DP's worth taking in a mono Nurgle list just give them this and wings. Land behind the enemy and puke on them at s4 with careful positioning you should be able to cripple low armour units and atleast remove a rank from high armour. I would not put this in units as they should be marching to make up for there low movement, but it could be useful on solo models to get rid of march blockers that you cant catch for a charge.

UNATURAL SWIFTNESS
Only available on the DP and he/she/it has I7 anyway so not that much use and only adds cost to the already over pointed DP.

SIREN SONG
This has been nerfed a bit in the FAQ but it is still awesome you can make that unit of hand gunners charge you so it loses a round of shooting and cant stand and shoot at your charge. Also you can pull units into position for a flank charge very easily with this. I put this on pretty much all my characters (i play mono Slaanesh) as i often face gun lines.

WINGED HORROR
Gives you flight (if you could not work that out from the name give up now and go play something simpler like snap) i dont think i need to tell you how useful flight can be. Only available to the DP and Tzeentch heralds personaly i would not put it on the herald as they should be in units anyway.

ARMOUR OF KHORNE
3+ save for 15 points would be good if there where not so many better things to put on your Khorne characters but if you have a spare 15 points take it who knows it might just save your models life. If you have a herald on a juggernaught then always take this as he will attract a lot of attention and a 1+ save will be very handy.

COLLAR OF KHORNE
Cheap and gives great protection against spells i would say a must if you lack DD's.

SLIME TRAIL
Enemies get no flank or rear charge bonus this makes your anvil units even harder to shift and at only 10 points is a bargin because lets face it Nurgle will get flanked.

TORMENT BLADE
This is a nice cheap weapon that if used with the LD bomb makes challenges very safe. Despite what some people seem to think it does not give +1A there is nothing to say this in the rules anywhere full stop and the people that try to claim it does are the sort of power gaming WAAC players who have given daemon players a bad name.

Banners

STANDARD OF CHAOS GLORY
All models within 12" become stubborn on an army that suffers from instability this is massively powerful.

BANNER OF HELLFIRE
Is good but loses out because all the others are just so much better than it, had it been cheaper or had longer range or better strength it might have been worth it but as it is im sorry to say it is just a bit naf.

GREAT ICON OF DESPAIR
-2LD to all enemies within 12" now that is great for a fear causing army and if you use it with the Slaanesh bomb then it becomes sick. This item is way to cheap for how powerful it makes our armies and is one of the few things i would agree with the whiners is broken (if they put thwe cost up to 150 it would still get used).

BANNER OF UNHOLY VICTORY
+D3 CR is good but pales next to the others but if you are low on points it could be worth a look.

GREAT STANDARD OF SUNDERING
Are you fed up with those pesky elves or lizards blasting you with magic then for a measly 50 points you can really hurt there plans. Against magic heavy armies this will become a primary target so put it on something hard or hidden (it works with infinite range and does not need LOS) so stick the banner in a unit behind your front lines or even hide it in a building or wood. This would be another thing i would agree is just a bit to powerful it should require LOS at the very least (i have never hidden it i always put it in my front units where an army standard should be).

BANNER OF ECSTASY
Makes your Daemonettes stubborn for its first test this is very handy to compensate for there average LD, but you should be trying to win your first round of combat not planning for a loss.

BANNER OF CHANGE
Again i have to ask why are your Tzeentch daemons in combat.

ICON OF ENDLESS WAR
+D6" to your first charge this is just to random to plan with as the gods of chaos are fickle and you just know that you will roll a 1 when all you need is 2 extra inches.

ICON OF ETERNAL VIRULENCE
This makes Nurgle units very scary (especialy if you have the tallyman), Doubles the CR from poisoned wounds once the tally is going this can make winning combats very easy.

ICON OF SORCERY
In my opinion every horror unit should have one of these as you then cast flickering fires on a 3+ this can easily help you to own the magic phase.

SIREN STANDARD
When you charge your opponent can only hold as a reaction this is game winning as Slaanesh will be charging a lot. This nerf's gunlines and fast cav.

SKULL TOTEM
Means you can ignore march blocking that can be useful but i would say is a waste of points.

STANDARD OF SEEPING DECAY
Re-roll to wound rolls is always good and at only 25 points i would take it if your not playing mono Nurgle if you are going mono Nurgle then take the standard of virulance.

Ahhhh the good ol' Warseer Advice on Daemons, I've been looking for that with very little success.

Thanks Lunahound.

From what I've read of the book, I'm definately going for a Khorne/Tzeentch list.

I'm not taking any Special Character because, IMO, they are very over costed for what they are - except Ku'Gath, he's well harsh. Skulltaker is ok too - nice model, but I think a Herald of Khorne on Juggernaut could be better.
(On the subject of Skulltaker, does the Juggernaut save stack with the Cloak of Skulls to give a 0+ save???)

Basically, I've gone for models that I like over what rules they have - except for the Horrors, which I have no love nor hate for.

Without any actual list with gifts, the rough draft I've got is this...

Bloodthirster or Lord of Change - most likely Bloodthirster, but I'll only use the Greater Daemon in 3K games.

Herald of Khorne on Juggernaut - This will be the army General when the Greater Daemon is not about. Going to convert it from the WoC Juggernaut and hopefully a 5th Edition Bloodletter Champion if I can find one.

Herald of Khorne BSB on Juggernaut.

2 Heralds of Tzeentch - These guys will go in the Horror Units. Going to convert them from Flamers.

2 large units of Horrors.

Bloodletters - Included as Flankers. Not sure how many units yet, but I refuse to take the minimum amount of core choices. In 2K i'll take at least 4 Core choices, sometimes 5, unless some other unit is more tactically sound.

2 units of Flesh Hounds - much better models than their previous incarnations.

1 Unit of Bloodcrushers - My favourite unit in the entire game and my favourite models in the Daemon's range.

1 unit of Flamers - I'm loath to take these things. I like the models a lot, but the rules are sooooo freekin cheesy. How any player can take 12 Flamers in 2K is beyond me. Surely that doesn't get you any fair play or Army Construction points in GTs???

My tactic I intend to use is have the Horrors act as Anvil Units with their large numbers and 4+ Ward save, while they cast spells.
The Bloodletters will be the Flankers.
The Hammer units (or Hammer of Khorne) will be the Bloodcrushers, led by the Herald and the Flesh Hounds.
The Flamers will be a support unit for the Horrors when they need the additional Firepower.

The list i'll probably come up with, will most likely bridge the gap between WAAC list and a regular have a game list.

Any comments will be greatly appriciated.

radiohazard wrote:Ahhhh the good ol' Warseer Advice on Daemons, I've been looking for that with very little success.

Thanks Lunahound.

From what I've read of the book, I'm definately going for a Khorne/Tzeentch list.

I'm not taking any Special Character because, IMO, they are very over costed for what they are - except Ku'Gath, he's well harsh. Skulltaker is ok too - nice model, but I think a Herald of Khorne on Juggernaut could be better.
(On the subject of Skulltaker, does the Juggernaut save stack with the Cloak of Skulls to give a 0+ save???)

you think they are overcosted... Kairos, Blue Scribes, Skulltaker, Masque are all pretty much amazing at almost any points and especially at their points. Yes Skulltaker gets a 0+ save.

Basically, I've gone for models that I like over what rules they have - except for the Horrors, which I have no love nor hate for.

Without any actual list with gifts, the rough draft I've got is this...

Bloodthirster or Lord of Change - most likely Bloodthirster, but I'll only use the Greater Daemon in 3K games.

Herald of Khorne on Juggernaut - This will be the army General when the Greater Daemon is not about. Going to convert it from the WoC Juggernaut and hopefully a 5th Edition Bloodletter Champion if I can find one.

Herald of Khorne BSB on Juggernaut.

2 Heralds of Tzeentch - These guys will go in the Horror Units. Going to convert them from Flamers.

2 large units of Horrors.

Bloodletters - Included as Flankers. Not sure how many units yet, but I refuse to take the minimum amount of core choices. In 2K i'll take at least 4 Core choices, sometimes 5, unless some other unit is more tactically sound.

2 units of Flesh Hounds - much better models than their previous incarnations.

1 Unit of Bloodcrushers - My favourite unit in the entire game and my favourite models in the Daemon's range.

1 unit of Flamers - I'm loath to take these things. I like the models a lot, but the rules are sooooo freekin cheesy. How any player can take 12 Flamers in 2K is beyond me. Surely that doesn't get you any fair play or Army Construction points in GTs???

My tactic I intend to use is have the Horrors act as Anvil Units with their large numbers and 4+ Ward save, while they cast spells.
The Bloodletters will be the Flankers.
The Hammer units (or Hammer of Khorne) will be the Bloodcrushers, led by the Herald and the Flesh Hounds.
The Flamers will be a support unit for the Horrors when they need the additional Firepower.

The list i'll probably come up with, will most likely bridge the gap between WAAC list and a regular have a game list.

Any comments will be greatly appriciated.

It will be a strong list, which is good, but not as good as totally cheesed out daemons (also good).

It would be an interesting 2000 point game, you will have good magic, good hammers, good anvils, and ok flankers. Oh and missile support will be ok (any flamers will make it ok). Your only weakness in less than 2000 point games is that you dont have furies to go warmachine hunting/marchblocking. Its not really much of a weakness because you have so many fast moving hammers that can really run on their own and kill just about anything, still i think it is good that you have one weakness (although i am not sure it is much of one).

Anyways I would be willing to try to take on this list (of course i would try to make about as hard a list as possible to try to compete) and I can see it actually turning out to be a decent game.

Ku'Gath = hot trash.

Reason: GUO only lv 1 wizard, and cost 650 pts.

Yeah he has a stone thower type weapon he can use and is on a Pal.

Still not worth it.

tiekwando wrote:
It will be a strong list, which is good, but not as good as totally cheesed out daemons (also good).

It would be an interesting 2000 point game, you will have good magic, good hammers, good anvils, and ok flankers. Oh and missile support will be ok (any flamers will make it ok). Your only weakness in less than 2000 point games is that you dont have furies to go warmachine hunting/marchblocking. Its not really much of a weakness because you have so many fast moving hammers that can really run on their own and kill just about anything, still i think it is good that you have one weakness (although i am not sure it is much of one).

Anyways I would be willing to try to take on this list (of course i would try to make about as hard a list as possible to try to compete) and I can see it actually turning out to be a decent game.

Looking at the Bloodletters, I am unimpressed by what they bring to the army as Flankers. They may have high strength and killing blow, but they lack speed and attacks.

i'm thinking Daemonettes might be a better replacement.

On the subject of Slaanesh, I've heard a bit about Mono lists.

Mono Tzeentch are magic heavy and lack good combat skills.
Mono Khorne are strong in combat, suffer from no magic, but have strong anti-magic abilities.
Mono Nurgle are tough, can regen, but are really slow and can't pump out any big hits.
Mono Slaanesh are fast, have a lot of attacks, but are very fragile.

I know of these things, but I heard that there are some tactics floating around - Slaanesh Ld Bomb for example.

Is there any tactica on these types (Slaanesh Ld Bomb Et'Al) of army???

I've looked on the net and found squat.

Well i played a LD bomb army tonight, and was slaughtered (actually i conceded but probably only a major victory).

Really the best way for daemons to go is to not go mono, but if you want to restrict yourself and still be able to have fun, please dont take mono tz or mono nurgle.

Mono tz have 2 phases, magic and shooting (and shooting is very very short) and are moderately dull to play against, and i believe as.

Mono Nurgle dont really do anything, they just dont die... Again boring to play against, might be boring to play as.

Slaneesh you have a lot of girls with ASF and they all move really quickly. 20 inch charges with greater daemons, masque, fiends and seekers, 12 inches with the normal blokes. Heralds should really join the blocks of daemonettes because ASF if great and s4 ap can actually hurt knights, while s3 ap is not quite as great. Greater Daemon can kill just about anything, but watch out for poison, your save is not that great (oh and dont charge ranked units... they will win most of the time)

Leadership bomb armies work on the basis of two things, slanneesh magic and the ld reducing banner, masque and possibly a tz herald with death. You need enough magic to sap away some dispel dice so horrors are a great addition and obviously you need a keeper for magic. The banner of despair reduces ld by 2, masque by d3, and doom and darkness by 3. for a total of 3-5 guaranteed and up to 6-8. These are then combined with items such as siren song (charge or flee), slaneesh lore spells 1, 4, 5 and 6 along with the terror and fear that your army naturally causes. Testing for stupidity on multiple units at -2 ld is going to be tough for many armies, if you can reduce ld by 7 on a ld 8 unit and can cast slicing shards the unit is automatically killed (cant pass a ld test double 1s only work in break test). #5 spell can easily assassinate heroes under the effect of the banner and masque. Generally the biggest thing about this army is that even if you win by a musician or a single wound then the enemy has a great chance to run, against armies not immune to psychology the effects are devastating because charges cannot be made (fear) or the entire army runs from terror (GD or Walking Death).

mono nurgle, i have seen the staff list, takes multiple staffs of nurgle along with a high lvl GD and some heralds as well. They lead blocks of plague bearers that will not and cannot die and that is basically the army. It will resist pretty much everything except for massive fire attacks and has a decent chance of causing quite a few wounds. Again flesh hounds/furies for speed are useful, flamers always welcome.

Mono Khorne-charge, guess thats all you need to know. Bloodthirster can take a scroll and still be a great combat fighter, probably looses kb though. Min Bloodletters even at ten they can still cause some damage. Max units of 6 hounds, 3 crushers, 3 heralds with AoK and +1s flaming sword. Bloodthirster. There is your army, now go and kill things.

About bloodletters as flankers, they are not that great at it, and they are always going to be inferior to flesh hounds who are immensely better. Daemonettes are ok, but without a herald they loose some of their punch. Bloodletters for fluff sake, anything else for making your army better (really 3 horror blocks or 2 and a PB block as core and specials as flankers, your hammer is your crushers).

Mono Tz-cast, then cast some more. If you want to be the best take karios, for slightly less cheese take a LoC. Be prepared for annoyed opponents. (of course your playing daemons so that will probably happen anyway).

Pretty much to play daemons at a only semi competitive level you have to make "poor" choices. I say poor because they are just not the best choices compared to others in the Daemon book.

I was actually thinking of converting Kairos from a lord of change. Is he actually as good as everyone makes out?


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I've narrowed down my army choice to three choices:

Mono Nurgle - to prove that they are better than everyone makes them out to be.

Mono Tzeentch - Coz I like them.

Khorne/Tzeentch mix - For the inner WAAC player in me.

well i can say that all 3 are going to be WAAC army lists.

Mono nurgle is not bad, it is a great list that will beat just about everything except for tooled up daemons. Its just boring to play against because you just end up with 5 blocks in combat for the rest of the game and nothing ever dies.

Mono Tz-also waac, if you go with kairos then you are guaranteed to be that way. Kairos is amazing, choose 8 spells, plus all of tzeentch. Popular choices include unseen lurker, cleansing flare, beast cowers, spirit of the forge etc. Oh and +2 to cast and re-roll 1 dice per turn is, well amazing.

Khorne/Tz-probably only slightly better than mono tz (but can be much worse) and can loose if its BT vs Kairos. BT or Kairos for general, skulltaker, and khorne heralds or tzeentch heralds depending on mood. Horrors for core, Flesh hounds for special and Flamers for rare, i guess you can take one unit of bloodcrushers if you want... Can be much more toned down than the other lists if you take letters (big block size or not), minimal flesh hounds/flamers, no GD etc.

If i may make a suggestion, play a game or two with them first before you go out and buy anything. You might find them somewhat boring as they ignore a lot of the most interesting parts of fantasy. Especially mono nurgle or mono tz, they just play the same way against every opponent and your games will almost never vary.

I'm surprised you say mono nurgle is a good list tiekwando. Most of the net chatter says they are the hardest DoC army to use effectively. I think that is why I'm drawn to them, mainly to prove a point that they are good.

One of the issues I'm having on building the list is GUO or no GUO. I will most likely take Epedemius as he makes mono nurgle pretty obscene. If I don't take the GUO, I'm thinking I might include three Heralds on Palanquin, 1 of them the BSB and stick them in the units of plaguebearers. Add Nurglings as flankers and Beasts as the hammers and should turn out ok.
Problem with the army is that it lacks any big punch, which makes me want to take GUO or take the Heralds as lvl 1 wizards and give them the -1 stat reduction spell. This makes Nurgle beat out a bit more punishment.

Any recommendations?

Well i guess the reason i think they are good is because one guy around here plays them as his second army. He really is a good player so that probably helps but he ends up winning most of his games, except for against other deamon armies. I guess though he does not use mono nurgle now that I think about it, and that might make all the difference. He uses 1 squad of flamers and 1 squad of furies along with 3 blocks of PB, and a GUO. Oh and 3 heralds. Everything that can takes the staff (that is how he kills everything, lots of s5 hits).

The GUO is absolutely necessary, he is the killy thing in the list and does a good job at it too. With a flail he is s8 in the first round of combat with 4 attacks. If you want him to kill anything he touches balesword and noxious vapors, he goes first and all wounds turn into d6 wounds after saves (with a -5 modifier). Or he can be unkillable and have the staff thing.

The problem with nurgle wizards is that since they are only level 1 you only have 3 spells that you can have over 50% chance of casting (1,2,3) but most of the time you with be stuck with the lvl 1 spell which is only good in combat, so doesn't draw scrolls, but the dispel dice are nice and once in combat it means he is tough to kill if you can get the spell off (50% cast on 1 dice, will draw some dice most likely). Banner of Hellfire might be useful but not sure if its worth dropping a staff for.

If you do get epidemious instead of one herald then yes everything should grab a level as with +2 to +5 to cast (i think) you can cast just about anything pretty easily on one dice. Just know that since he is not a herald you need to put another herald in the PB block with him for them to gain regen (which is why they are good).

Never seen beasts of nurgle but they may be good... and the only nurglings i have seen come from that one spell and they tend to march block and cause other problems. If you can get two or more of them from the spell you can take on warmachines pretty easily without having to worry about giving up 50 VPs.

*note it depends on what you mean by hardest and good. For DoC they are not as broken as some of the other armies against everything. But they still are one of the best armies out there. Unfortunately against blocks of horrors backed up by flamers you will loose. So in that way they are weak against the strongest army out there, which is probably khorne and tz mixed. But they will still beat most opponents out there.

Thanks for the advice - I'll put some lists up later on tonight and link them across.

Thanks, this is also very helpful for me who is considering a jaunt over from the round base side of things to the more angular.

I'm sure I'm preaching to the choir on this one, but the problem with Daemons is that they did not stop and think about any of the combinations that can be made when they wrote the codex. When pretty much a newbie to the game can take a Daemon army out and wipe the floor with folks, not understanding alot of the tactics and techniques that go into the game, thats an indication of the power level of the book. Thats why Daemons get such a bad rep and also why people take them to tournaments - they are designed to be a power level gaming army which is amplified even more once a player gets some experience under his belt.

As far as Daemon special characters, if your fielding a special character lord choice in a 2000 pt game, I'm really surpised people play you. Alot of the Indy GTs that I travel to have them banned - period. Kairos is about the worst - he is so undercosted and overpowered that he just doesn't make the game fun. Another indication that a character is totally broken - look at how many people took him in the 'Ard Boyz. Just about everybody - thats a sign.

As far as your army selections you put out - just my two cents on them:

1. Mono-Nurgle. Ends up being pretty boring, as you have no shooting, very little magic (except with a GUO and then he's expensive as hell) - the army just doesn't die. Or do much damage. Or anything other than hang around in combat. If you play an opponent with alot of flaming attacks, you generally lose. All metal army = expensive for the playing experience.

2. Mono-Tzeentch. Don't run Kairos. Fight the urge. At least it's somewhat random due to spellcasting, but once he gets into combat, your usually done. As a note, run your horrors in smaller blocks (10 horrors), so you can benefit from the added dispel and casting dice. Also you can take the loss of one or two when your opponent gets to your lines and not lose your magic phase. Flamers are pretty nasty as you said.

3. Khorne/Tzeentch. Bloodletters aren't really that good, especially with T3 and a 5+ ward. Where they get nasty is a Herald on Jugger delivery system (yes the AS bonus from the Jugger stacks with Skulltaker's 3+ save). More people take flesh hounds in a khorne/tzeentch list, as they're pretty nasty themselves.

I don't see many folks running any slaneesh units, other than a Keeper of Secrets/Masque/Herald with leadership reduction leadership bomb tactic.

In response to questions about Kairos. He is absolutely amazing. There are basically no drawbacks to him. People talk about him getting wrecked if he gets into combat, but an even halfway decent player should have no trouble keeping him out of combat against 90% of armies. If they don't have flying monsters or skirmishers, cake. Just land behind units, fly out of charge arcs, etc. You don't have to worry about units getting Dansed into him or similar things because as an (assumably) heavy Tzeentch army you dominate the magic phase on both sides. Even with flying monsters he can be easily kept out of charges, he'll just have to dance with the opposing monster, which will keep him from landing in optimal spots to flare.

And if he does get in combat, you'd be surprised at how durable he is. He's almost never going to die to a single round unless something ludicrous charges him, and his magic is potent even in combat. Between 2-3 flare spells per head and other combat-affecting spells like Steal Soul, he can break his way out of combat before most things can kill him, and Steal Soul can be used to buff up on extra wounds/recover wounds lost due to a combat. In fact, if he survives being charged, he can cast the D3 rerolls spell and be almost impossible to kill, or Flaming Sword of Rhuin and potentially win combat.

Even in BT vs. Kairos, a charging BT will cause (on average) about 4-5 wounds (thanks to needing 3's to wound due to Daemonic Robes), Kairos will fail 1-2 Ward saves, and be able to reroll 1 of those. He has decent odds of drawing the combat and a pretty good chance of only suffering 1 wound to lose by 1. Barring a huge Instability roll, he'll still be around next turn to cast Flaming Sword, take his 1 wound in combat (or maybe none), and then throw 2 attacks at the BT hitting on 2's and wounding on 2's. Combine that with damage he can do from something like Gift of Chaos (and potentially Steal Soul) and he could easily wreck a BT given enough time. Or just repeated bouts of Cleansing Flare, Gift of Chaos, and reroll ward saves to outlast the Thirster.

The biggest threat to Kairos is that something can catch him and hold him still for a turn so that a nastier block with CR can charge in. A cav unit catching his flank because he got stuck for a turn would have a +3 to CR due to flank, outnumber, banner (even worse if they have a BSB too). That's what kills Kairos.

That or Pit of Shades resolving.

But to dismiss Kairos because he lacks combat ability is massively undervaluing what he can do. And in terms of his point cost, he is cheaper than a level 4 Lord of Change fully kitted out, and can do roughly 8 times what the LoC can do.


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Sorry about the previous Kairos rant, but he has a special place in my heart. He's what caused me to start playing Daemons in both WFB and 40k.

In terms of a generic strong (mixed) Daemon list to try:
Bloodthirster, Obsidian Armor, Flame Blade, Immortal Fury (or else Armor of Khorne, KB ability instead of Obsidian)
10-man units of Pink Horrors to fill out your Core
3-4x 5-strong units of Flesh Hounds
2x 5-6-strong units of Flamers
Perhaps a Khorne Herald on Chariot, BSB with Banner of Sundering and toys and Skulltaker on Chariot to fill in the rest

For a mono-Tzeentch list (that is tough as nails and everyone will hate you for playing...trust me on that):
Kairos
3x Herald of Tzeentch, Chariot, Master of Sorcery, Flames of Tzeentch
(1 is BSB with Hellfire Banner)
3x 10 Pink Horrors
2x 6 Flamers
(2250)

It's points denial and magic superiority cranked up to max. Fly around avoiding charges, use the Flamers' mobility and skirmishing to maneuver to weak areas and gun things down, dominate with magic, and land in key areas to fire off flare spells. You can end pretty much entire armies in one go if they eat 2-3 Cleansing Flares, a Gift of Chaos, and the Hellfire Banner in one turn in a clumped-up area. In most games, at the end they've killed your Pink Horrors and not much else, and you've done significant damage and are in all table quarters with US5 units.

For mono-Khorne, Blood Thirster, Flesh Hounds, Blood Crushers, and Heralds. Throw the Heralds on Juggers with Armor of Khorne and you'll have 0+ saves on them cruising around giving the entire Bloodcrusher squads Hatred (which is harsh). Toss Skulltaker in for good measure. Be sure to grab the Standard of Sundering.


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And for Ld-bomb, it looks something like this (YMMV, but this is a framework):

Keeper, Lvl 4, Torment Blade, Soul Hunger, Allure of Slaanesh, Siren Song (or replace Soul Hunger with the thing that doesn't let them use character's Ld...it depends on how a judge would rule on the interaction between General's Ld and Ld modifiers on the unit)
The Masque
Tzeentch Herald, Master of Sorcery, Flight, BSB, Icon of Despair
Tzeentch Herald, Master of Sorcery, Flight
3x 10 Pink Horrors
Special and Rare to choice...I have a liking of Screamers and Flamers in this build, but fighty stuff is also strong if you have enough (like lots of Hounds, or Hounds + Crushers)

The Heralds and Masque escort the Keeper around, he deals with troublesome things, and against armies that are not ItP across the board, the Heralds usually take Lore of Death for Doom & Darkness. I've seen the combo take down some disgustingly nasty stuff. For example, once I saw the Keeper charge Archaeon. Masque got a -2 Ld on him, banner was around. Keeper strikes first, manages to get 1 wound through the 3+ ward. Archaeon is now at Ld 6, needs to pass 2 Ld tests to attack back, if he fails either he can't swing. He fails one, so he can't attack and combat is over. The Keeper caused a wound and outnumbers, and with Archaeon's Ld down to 6 already, he's testing on a 4. Failed even with the reroll he gives himself, run down. A 685 point model (iirc) who was the general, murdered in one round without a scratch on the Daemon side. The game went on to be a rout.

People don't usually see that coming. The Keeper can do it to ranked up units so long as he doesn't hit to the front (not hard with M10). Banner+Masque+D&D will make it so no one can attack the Keeper, he'll win combat, the unit will need Insane Courage to hold, and they'll be run down. Banner captured, maybe general dead, unit dead, ready to repeat. In addition, Icon of Despair, Masque, and 2 guys with Doom and Darkness can be really brutal when you blitz a Terror-causer up into their lines, or make someone permanently Stupid with Acquiescence.

Finally, Siren Song is some good against all kinds of stuff that would otherwise try to avoid you. If you go first, you can blitz the Keeper and retinue forward, lower Ld, then force a charge with Siren Song on their first turn, potentially losing them something very important before they can do anything about it.

It's not the absolute strongest build of Daemons, but it's fun to play. It still works against ItP armies, as the Masque's movement-lowering ability is very strong too, the Heralds can both take Lore of Light against Daemons/VC/TK, and ItP still has to take those Ld tests, they just don't worry about D&D. But the Archaeon example above could certainly have been any number of ItP characters or monsters. It'll make Daemons explode to Instability. Less amazing against Vampires, but then Vampires are much easier to wound than Arcaheon, and are still not likely going to be able to swing back.

At 3k points, your best bet is to take that framework, add 10 more Horrors, pick up another identical Tzeentch Herald, and add Kairos. It makes for a very strong army that can stand up to just about anything, and can play massive points-denial if necessary.


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Addendum: In the Ld-bomb list, the Screamers and Flamers are awesome because they can cause Panic checks in the Movement and Shooting phases, respectively, which is nasty if they have -2 Ld or worse, and have things like a Keeper beside them to destroy them if they break.

what is kairos

ernshmagl wrote:what is kairos

A fething ridiculous (like almost everything in the book) Lord of Change special character.

There are basically no drawbacks to him. People talk about him getting wrecked if he gets into combat, but an even halfway decent player should have no trouble keeping him out of combat against 90% of armies.

I remember playing against a Kairos+2 Power Vortex Heralds Daemons at this year's GT Finland with my Daemons. I ended up killing it with my siren singing Keeper of Secrets. Kairos doesn't belong to top DoC lists because it can be countered by other DoC builds, many of which are overall more reliable against every opponent imaginable.

Your KoS list doesn't need a second Tzeentch Herald. It only makes the list worse. It definately doesn't need Crushers or Screamers, but three units of Flesh Hounds and one of Flamers.

When you expect to play against tons of top-notch DoC lists, you should always take the KoS and his friends of despair. With the help of the banner and Masque he will kill the Star Dragon, Bloodthirster and Kairos. When you expect to play against armies like Dark Elves and Vampire Counts, take the Bloodthirster. It really is that simple.

I've played against a KoS Daemon list multiple times with him, never had Kairos killed. Part of it is simply knowing how to counter what your opponent is doing. Kairos is simply deployed facing my board edge, so he doesn't have LoS to the Keeper if it blitzes forward, thus no Siren Song charge. Unless they have ridiculously impressive magic defenses, a Tzeentch army can murder a Keeper in a round if they focus on just killing it. After all, in the list described, there's at most 1 scroll (and probably not even that), so they have almost no defense against the Tzeentch magic. And they would focus on the Keeper, since once the Keeper is dead there isn't much else that can threaten Kairos. Alternatively, Kairos can wander into woods (by walking, not flying) with someone standing in front of him, maybe Flamers. He can't charge through the Flamers while on foot, and he can't fly out of the woods. Limits his mobility so less ideal, but workable.

Yes, an unsuspecting opponent will deploy normally, and if the Keeper gets to go first Kairos will be charging first turn. But assuming the Kairos player doesn't make play mistakes, and that the Keeper isn't extraordinarily resilient on 5+ ward saves, Kairos will never get into combat with him, will kill him, and then has mostly free reign to zip around wreaking havoc. After all, if we're talking about playing against top-notch lists, we should also assume we're playing against top-notch opponents, who won't walk into obvious things like a Siren Song from a Keeper.

The same happens with any goofy scenario that causes the general to charge somebody (I'm looking at you, 'Ard Boyz). Kairos can do plenty of damage facing away from the field so he doesn't have LoS to declare a charge...he can still fire off flares, spells that don't need LoS, etc. until he gets the opportunity to magic the offending unit to death. It's harder to do if the offending character can also fly, but not impossible.

As a side note, DoC lists sometimes run a GUO, and the GUO with Vapors and Balesword could be very dangerous for a Keeper. If they can force through Miasma (and will probably try it on 5 dice if they get Siren Song'ed) then the best the Keeper can hope for is for the one Ld check to be failed. Otherwise the Keeper is probably dead. If Miasma fails/gets blocked, then the Keeper has much better odds.

Now I'm not saying that the Keeper/Despair bomb is bad by any means. It's certainly very strong. But it's not the be-all end-all of beating other Daemon builds, and it's far from a certain way to eliminate Kairos. The list you mentioned from the GT is far from optimized.... 2 Power Vortex Heralds are really subpar... big points investment to get basically just one more PD for Kairos... they're much better off with Master of Sorcery so they can make some contributions to the game as well (such as Lore of Light against other Daemons).

Honestly, my experience has been that mono-Tzeentch is one of the best builds against other Daemons...it may not be the strongest all-comers Daemon army as a whole, but it gives other Daemons fits. No one has any meaningful magic defenses unless they're Tzeentch...no scrolls, low DD, no plusses or rerolls to dispel. After they changed MR so that it doesn't affect untargetted spells, I've only lost once to another Daemon army, and it was due to Kairos managing to end the magic phase on my first turn with a miscast.

Also, the idea that Kairos doesn't belong in top DoC builds isn't borne out by tournament results from what I've seen. The 'Ard Boyz finals this year had Kairos daemons finish 3rd and 4th, certainly respectable finishes.

sirisaacnuton wrote:I've played against a KoS Daemon list multiple times with him, never had Kairos killed. Part of it is simply knowing how to counter what your opponent is doing. Kairos is simply deployed facing my board edge, so he doesn't have LoS to the Keeper if it blitzes forward, thus no Siren Song charge. Unless they have ridiculously impressive magic defenses, a Tzeentch army can murder a Keeper in a round if they focus on just killing it. After all, in the list described, there's at most 1 scroll (and probably not even that), so they have almost no defense against the Tzeentch magic. And they would focus on the Keeper, since once the Keeper is dead there isn't much else that can threaten Kairos. Alternatively, Kairos can wander into woods (by walking, not flying) with someone standing in front of him, maybe Flamers. He can't charge through the Flamers while on foot, and he can't fly out of the woods. Limits his mobility so less ideal, but workable.

Are you really saying you can get any real effectiveness out of Kairos by having him hug a table edge the whole game? That's what you have to do afterall. You won't have access to line of sight spells and your range will be incredibly limited. Additionally it might not even be enough considering the KoS' 20" charge that can catch him in normal means. As far as your so called 'murderous' Tzeentch magic is concerned you have to be joking. The Keeper will be in close combat each time you see him and there's nothing in your army that can stop him. Additionally, the Flesh Hounds accompanying him will murder your puny Tzeentch army that fights without Greater Daemon support. The most you'd be playing for is a draw, and that means you're deploying your entire army in a castle in a corner. I have a model you can't come within 40 inches of. It's quite a bubble that I can use to destroy everything in your army apart from Kairos, or Kairos. You decide.

In case you didn't know, the KoS lists appeared to specifically counter Kairos lists that were trying to have their way with Bloodthirsters at the UK GT where the top10 is always nearly 100% DoC players. Your experience about mono-Tzeentch isn't all that impressive in light of actual results from the cheese circuit that the four UK GTs are or from the ETC. My personal experiences are also completely different.

radiohazard wrote:

LunaHound wrote:
For 12 points you get....

Str 5 , killing blow , Magic Resistance , 5+ ward save , magic attacks , Immune to Psychology ; Fear


12 points...

The unit you mentioned only gets one attack, are toughness 3 and will get shot sooooo badly.

I agree though - very undercosted.

Da Boss wrote:
So a list that uses all these elements will do pretty well, but to be honest, the book is so good you can build something nasty around any theme you want. Probably Bloodletters and Daemonettes aren't that good, but that's it from what I've read.
I don't play Daemons though. So take what I've said with your prefered amount of salt.

I agree Boss. The DoC book is good. IMO it's the best one. I can definatley see why people play them.

I was thinking Mono Tzeentch, but they are so filthy, to even write an army list hurts my eyes.

Mono Khorne is one of my favourite types of army and I might go with them.

For Tourney games I think i'll just mix the two.

Is any of that a good idea?

If you want pure filth, do what someone at my GW does. Tzeentch list led by a bloodthirster. [Is violently sick]