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So, you've finally realised your turn of the moment space marine tactics are innefective.
Well, never you fear, my young accolites, The Adept-inberica training manual is all you need.

Principles of the inberica:
1. Don't pretend to know what your doing. if your not sure about a rule, always check. it can mean the difference between your complete massacre and your resounding victory.
2. Don't think that it can hit it; just because there is a chance. you are never above the fate of your rolls. ]
it is a fact that on average, a bolter will only hit 4-6 times in a squad of 5. (at 12")
3. that said, beleive that if it might be able to hit it, do it.
4. plan ahead. don't make up your mind for the current turn, it should be done.
5. have a basic understanding of the stats and rules of an enemies army.

We will take a single turn from my observation.
1. Space marine army goes first.
10 space marines, 30 boyz.
space marines charge in blindly, even thought they need not, because the enemy is within 6". they loose the ability to fire their heavy weapons, and they can't fire their flamer to maximum effect.
Squad then proceeds to assault, after causing a total of 3 wounds (10%)
the squad looses 7 men, and the ork's loose 12. (40%)
The space marine squad is now under half strength, at 30% and the ork squad is at half strength, at 50%.

There were many flaws in that. if the squad had never moved, missile launcher would have been used, and the flamer to full effect. this would have allowed at least 5-8 extra hits, on top of the 15 boltP/bolter and 3 flamer hits.
The squad would have suffered no casualties, and the orks could have taken an average of 7 bolter kills, 2 Hbolter hits, and 4 Flamer hits, this is 13, less then 10% less kills, but the tactical squad would still be at full strength, which means that the likelyhood of the 10 space marines hitting next turn would be around 7-8 hits, while the orks (lower initiative) would get around 2 wounds, if they were lucky, then they would loose the assault and run.

This explains one thing. Plan for the next phase, not the current one.

You're welcome.

I think that you should follow your own rule #1, or drop the tone of condescension.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Quick comments:
1) You will get more flamer hits if you move up.
2) I assume that you made a typo with the heavy bolter and meant to say missile launcher

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The scenario is as follows:
10 Marines w/ Missile Launcher & Flamer (170 pts)
The marine sergeant has a bolter and no chainsword.

vs.

30 Orks (180 pts)
The Orks have no special weapons and no Nob

The two units are within about 6" of each other, give or take a few inches. It is the Marine player's turn, but the Ork player will get a turn too, since you're adamant about planning ahead for future turns. These 2 units are the only 2 units on the board, with no cover.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The Marine player then has three options. He can:
A) Not do anything/run away
B) Stand and shoot
C) Move up, shoot and charge the Orks

I'll ignore option A for the purposes of this discussion.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Option B: Stand & Shoot
You are firing a frag missile launcher, a flamer at distance, and 8 bolters (rapid firing). We will assume that the frag missile launcher and flamer each hit 3 orks.

The bolters firing: 16(2/3)(1/2)=5.33 dead orks
The missile launcher: 3(1/2)=1.5 dead orks
The flamer: 3(1/2)=1.5 dead orks
Total Ork casualties = 5.33+1.5+1.5=8.33
We'll round down to 8, leaving the Ork player with 22 left in the mob.

START OF ORK TURN (10 Marines (w/ 1 sarge vs. 22 Orks)

The following turn, the Ork player shoots his sluggas and charges in.
Sluggas firing: 22(1/3)(1/2)(1/3)=1.22 dead marines...we'll round down to 1

The marines strike first in combat. 8 marines + 1 marine sergeant amounts to 10 attacks.

10(1/2)(1/2)(5/6)=2.083 orks dead..we'll round down to 2
So 20 Orks get their full attacks. Remember, Orks have furious charge, and 4 attacks apiece on the charge.

80(1/2)(1/2)(1/3)=6.6667 dead marines...round up to 7
There are now only 2 marines left in the squad, and you just lost combat by 5. Not looking good.

AT THE END OF THE TURN: 2 Marines vs. 20 Orks

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Option C: Move up, shoot and charge the Orks
You fire 9 bolt pistols and a flamer. You don't get to shoot the missile launcher, but the flamer WILL GET MORE HITS THAN IF YOU STOOD STILL as you get to optimize the position of the flamer. We will assume that the flamer gets 6 hits, which should not be very difficult at all in a mob of 30 Orks.

Bolt pistols: 9(2/3)(1/2)=3 dead Orks
Flamer: 6(1/2)=3 dead Orks
Total Ork casualties: 6, 24 Orks left

Then you charge in.
You get a total of 21 attacks

21(1/2)(1/2)(5/6)=4.375 dead orks...round down to 4...20 Orks left

The Orks strike back. They are only S3 only have 3 attacks apiece.
60(1/2)(1/3)(1/3)=3.33 marines dead...round down to 3

Marines win combat by 1. Orks lose combat by 1, and lose 1 model because they are fearless.

START OF ORK TURN: 6 Marines (w/ 1 sarge) vs. 19 Orks

You are both in combat, so no shooting.

Marines strike first.
7(1/2)(1/2)(5/6)=1.458 Orks dead...round down to 1

Orks retaliate
57(1/2)(1/3)(1/3)=3.1667 Marines dead...round down to 3

Marines lose combat by 2.

AT THE END OF THE TURN: 3 Marines vs. 18 Orks

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
CONCLUSION:

1) If 10 tactical marines are that close to 30 Orks, they're boned either way.

2) 3 Marines vs. 18 Orks is preferable to 2 Marines vs. 20 Orks

3) Losing combat by 2 is preferable to losing combat by 5

Therefore, it would be best for the Marine player to pick Option B, shoot and charge in.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Of course, we had to make a lot of assumptions for this simulation. There is no realistic way we can predict hits with flamers and blast weapons. The Ork player in this instance has a slightly costlier unit, and no Nob w/ Power Klaw. This will never happen against a decent Ork player. Ever. Also, in a real game the two units be starting 24" away from each other, and the Marines will get a couple of more turns to shoot.

You're welcome.

The first post is an example of poorly thought out advice. The previous is an excellent refutation of the poor advice.

@ OP: Remember orks gain +1 str when assaulting, so it is almost always a good idea to deny them the bonus.

Also note that when you take averages of dice rolls and use that for an expected outcome, you neglect to account for proper probability distribution. An average is just that, and while useful is not the whole picture.

This is an example.

The second situation (Forethought) is to assume, yes. The fact is, I'm trying to make the point that Alot of new Space marine players Try to do the impossible, Spacemarines are excelent soldiers. They have limited attacks (11+1 for CC based sergeant)
The Missile launcher is not a typo. The situation demanded that the missile could only hit 3 (without hitting nearby friendlies.)
Due to the situation, the flamer would have been able to get only fewer attacks, simply due to the spacing of orks.

The second, is an improovement, but impoverished by my own withheld information (So, yeah, I shouldn't have written such a vague post.)
The fact still remains that I see alot of space marine making massive tactical errors.

The difficulty with transmitting this information to the public is, I'm new (2nd post) and I don't know how to upload photos.

Thanks for the improovements.

-Adepti, basilicai, mon'tail
- The holy adept
(The only scout marine I like.)

Your example is full of errors. A squad of marines do not hit with 15 bolter shots. One squad have 17 shots, and will hit on 2/3rds, and wound on 1/2 = slightly less than 6 dead orks. MarvinGaye have given you the right odds, and have pointed out lots of other wrong assumptions.

It seems you just made this to help some extreme noobs at your FLGS or something. You should probably just tell them to shoot before they charge, as that seems to be missing from your example. Most people on these boards probably know when to shot with assault weapons before the charge

Standing and shooting against orks rarely pays off. Exeption would be devastator squads etc.

Illumini wrote:Standing and shooting against orks rarely pays off.

Yup, you seriously want to punch those ugly green suckers in the face.



(im being serious, shoot as they run at you, then charge them and give 'em a good ol' face punching )

(clearly plays CSM and loves having his BP/CCW )

Captain Solon: Your posts are very difficult to read. Could you please run a spell-check on your posts before submitting?

er, your calcs are a bit wrong, as there will never be a mob of boyz without a nob with a power klaw at the center, so those marines die 20x faster ....

The marines might die faster against a nob with a powerklaw, but a mob of 30 orks ALSO isn't going to accidentally wander into 10 tac marines 6 inches away until they figure out what to do about it.

Doesn't matter if you're a space marine terminator or a Tau Firewarrior; unless the unit is an intentional meatshield meant to deny access to terrain or other units, you ALWAYS charge the orks.

Unless of course those orks can cover 29" and assault you and put Ghazghkull into your face, which is why mechanized orks are awesome.

Why would you ever give the orks a chance to charge when playing against them? That is just common sense to me...

@Dash: I watched my little cuz today and he had Freakazoid DVDs. There was a character with your name.

Captain Solon wrote:So, you've finally realised your turn of the moment space marine tactics are innefective.
Well, never you fear, my young accolites, The Adept-inberica training manual is all you need.

Oh goody.

1. Don't pretend to know what your doing. if your not sure about a rule, always check. it can mean the difference between your complete massacre and your resounding victory.
2. Don't think that it can hit it; just because there is a chance. you are never above the fate of your rolls.
it is a fact that on average, a bolter will only hit 4-6 times in a squad of 5. (at 12")

This game has roolz??
And (so sad we can't use Protip anymore) a bolter always hits 4/6 times (statistically).

3. that said, beleive that if it might be able to hit it, do it.

Translation: always shoot with everything.

4. plan ahead. don't make up your mind for the current turn, it should be done.

Translation: Make a plan.

5. have a basic understanding of the stats and rules of an enemies army.

Translation: Don't let your opponent cheat

Thank you for wasting my time and confusing new Marine players.

You're welcome.

..and we're done here.