ATSKNF - falling back

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**garigon**

Say a squad of space marines os falling back, and i move my jetbikes within 6" of them in the assault phase, can they still regroup?

I recently saw this on wayofsaimmhan:

"Jetbikes zoom up to a marine tactical squad and open fire killing a few marines and forcing a leadership check. If my opponent fails, he runs back 2D6, on average out of the 6” to prevent a regroup so he does and then shoots back or assaults. Another tactic marine players like to use is to auto fall back to prevent my jetbikes from assaulting by getting more then 6” away, regrouping on their turn and then getting back in the fight. That 6” jetbike assault move stops those shenanigans. Marines fall back and I follow up with the 6” move- at the start of the marine turn I am within 6” so you keep falling back. This works wonders when marines are holding a back table objective and fall back, but not off the table- following the 6” makes sure they do run off next turn." - posted by good 'ole Fritz!

The reason I ask, is because of ATSKNF- shouldn't the marines be able to regroup regardless? How does combat tactics affect this regrouping?

Also, if a marine squad are pinned by my units in a turn, can they get back up and move as normal in their turn?

**Scott-S6**

Marines are able to regroup below half strength and can immediately act normally when they reroup but they are not given an exemption from the no enemies with 6" requirement so it is possible to chase them off the table.

Pinning affects them as normal.

**Gornall**

Marines cannot regroup if an enemy unit is within 6" and Combat Tactics really doesn't affect this.

If a Marine squad is pinned or has gone to ground, if it is forced to take a morale check, it can choose to autofail that, which causes it to fall back 2D6" and allows it to regroup and act normally if there isn't an enemy with 6".

**Dracos**

Indeed, SM are allowed to ignore the restriction of being under 50% to regroup, but not the restriction of an enemy within 6".

**garigon**

Thanks.

I thought if you were pinned, you stay in one place, and don't fall back?

**Dracos**

Pinned units are simply units that have been forced to go to ground, and "Whilst it has gone to ground the unit may do nothing of its own volition, but will react normally if affected by enemey actions (for example, it will take Morale tests as normal)." P.24 BGB

**Karon**

This is kind of what draws alot of SM players to them, they are very easy to play and ignore running away generally because of ATSKNF

**nosferatu1001**

Unless you have an enemy unit within 6", in which case they cannot rally.

**Lordhat**

Everyone always forgets the third criteria for a unit to rally: coherency. Granted, it's very rare for a unit to be out of coherency at the end of a FB move, but it's possible for a unit to lose a model and not be coherent at the beginnig of it's next turn.

**Cptn. Waaagh!**

nosferatu1001 wrote:Unless you have an enemy unit within 6", in which case they cannot rally.

ATSKNF - they can rally.

Combat tactics- they can fail any morale test. As far as I'm concerned, that means they can choose to fail, or try to pass by rolling low enough.

**insaniak**

Cptn. Waaagh! wrote:
nosferatu1001 wrote:Unless you have an enemy unit within 6", in which case they cannot rally.

ATSKNF - they can rally.

No, sorry, they can't.

ATSKNF does not over-ride the restriction on regrouping when enemy are nearby. It just allows them to do so automatically, and when below half strength. All other criteria still apply (says as much in the rule).

**Mannahnin**

Yup. My Lesser Daemons ran the last TH/SS terminator from an assault termie squad off the table Saturday. It's good stuff.

**SuperioR**

Yep, one of the main reasons why I dont understand people who say your marines shouldn't ever win combat as they can just flee.

Don't know about all other people, but over here people tend to "escort" them out off the table.

**Nurglitch**

Don't forget pinning. That's something I find many players have over-looked, the fact that so many Space Marines units, vital units at that, can be very vulnerable to pinning.

Besides, combat tactics are usually only useful during the opposing player's assault phase to get away from an opponent they can't contribute to defeating. Maybe in your own phase when a Dreadnought assaults the unit locked down by the Tactical squad, but that's really hard to pull off.

Successful use of And They Shall Know No Fear depends on how your units support each other so that you don't fall for the 'escort the Marines off the table' trick.

**Gornall**

Nurglitch wrote:Don't forget pinning. That's something I find many players have over-looked, the fact that so many Space Marines units, vital units at that, can be very vulnerable to pinning.

Yeah. It's really fun when a squad of Marines get Lashed around your Land Raider and then pinned, locking your LR (and the guys inside) in place.

**nosferatu1001**

Cptn. Waaagh! wrote:
nosferatu1001 wrote:Unless you have an enemy unit within 6", in which case they cannot rally.

ATSKNF - they can rally.

Please read the rules for ATSKNF - they ONLY rally if they can take the test, and enemy within 6" denies this.

**toxic_wisdom**

For clarity - when exactly does the rule for ATSKNF apply for regrouping ?

01. at the end of the individual fall back move ?
02. at the end of the turn ?
03. at the start of the SM turn ?

**puma713**

toxic_wisdom wrote:For clarity - when exactly does the rule for ATSKNF apply for regrouping ?

01. at the end of the individual fall back move ?
02. at the end of the turn ?
03. at the start of the SM turn ?

Just think of ATSKNF as an auto-regroup (unless they're out of coherency or there are enemies within 6"). Because that's what it boils down to.

1. Sorta - if you lose combat and you break, you flee. If you roll Initiative to see if you're caught, instead of being destroyed, you take No Retreat wounds.
2. No.
3. Yes, here if there are no enemies within 6" and you're in coherency, you will auto-regroup, without a test. I suppose if you wanted to use Combat Tactics (although many people use special characters, robbing their units of Combat Tactics) to continue to fall back, you could, since you can continue to fire while you fall back and you can just as easily regroup next turn.

Something like Combat Tactics could also be useful in a situation where you can't be swept. Ex. You're doing battle with a squad of terminators. You lose the battle, but you don't want to remain in the fight because it's your turn and you'd like to fire and assault next turn. You choose to auto-break. Since terminators can't sweep, you fall back, let's say 8", and you stay in coherency. Normally, models can only move 3" and count as having moved the next turn when they regroup, but ATSKNF allows Marines not only to auto-regroup, but to act normally upon doing so. Bingo. You auto-regroup, fire into the termis with all you got and then assault them again (or whatever else you'd like to do).

**don_mondo**

toxic_wisdom wrote:For clarity - when exactly does the rule for ATSKNF apply for regrouping ?

01. at the end of the individual fall back move ?
02. at the end of the turn ?
03. at the start of the SM turn ?

3. Nothing in ATSKNF changes when the regroup occurs, all it does is allow it to occur without rolling dice and to ignore one of the brestrictions.

**jcage**

So if a squad of space marines is assaulted while falling back, they automatically regroup without having to pass a test?

**insaniak**

Yes.

Assaulting a unit that is falling back triggers a test to regroup. Space Marines automatically pass tests to regroup.

**toxic_wisdom**

don_mondo wrote:3. Nothing in ATSKNF changes when the regroup occurs, all it does is allow it to occur without rolling dice and to ignore one of the brestrictions.

okay thanx - seems that some SM players are playing it wrong then ( a domino effect ? ): A few have stated that ATSKNF allows for them to rally at the end of the turn - result is that when the SM player begins his turn the unit in question has already regrouped and therefore can act freely ( move, shoot, etc ).

**insaniak**

The SM players in question would appear to have a chronic case of 'Previous Editionitis' ... in this case, 3rd edition.

Tell them to report to their local Inquisitional offices for deprogramming. Or to just have a read of the ATSKNF in the current Space Marine codex.

**Gornall**

toxic_wisdom wrote:result is that when the SM player begins his turn the unit in question has already regrouped and therefore can act freely ( move, shoot, etc ).

This is correct. The regrouping unit gets a full 6" move and can act normally. However, it happens in the controling players turn, just like every other unit regrouping.

**insaniak**

Gornall wrote:
toxic_wisdom wrote:result is that when the SM player begins his turn the unit in question has already regrouped and therefore can act freely ( move, shoot, etc ).

This is correct. The regrouping unit gets a full 6" move and can act normally. However, it happens in the controling players turn, just like every other unit regrouping.

The main difference being that if they regroup at the end of their own turn (as they did in 3rd edition), it becomes impossible to shepherd them off the table by moving a unit close in your next turn to make them continue falling back.

**Nurglitch**

It offsets their advantages over Fearless units. Fearless units cannot be pinned or escorted off the table, but they have no way of avoiding No Retreat! wounds, or of avoiding being stuck in unwinnable combats.

**Praxiss**

Ok, now that that's cleared up. Coudl someone explain No Retreat wounds to e (I'm at work and dont have a codex handy to look it up)

**Sanctjud**

You could wait til you get home...

Anyway, if called upon to take no retreats, you roll 'X' number of saves.
Where 'X' is the number you lost combat by.

**Praxiss**

AH, thankyou. I dont finish for a few hours yet, and i will have forgotten by then.

**Nurglitch**

Basically if a squad of Space Marines fails a morale check when locked in combat, they have to test to avoid a Sweeping Advance by their opponents (if, indeed, their opponents can engage in a Sweeping Advance). If they are caught by the Sweeping Advance, however, they are not wiped out like ordinary troops, but suffer No Retreat! wounds like a Fearless unit would.

No Retreat! means that the falling back units takes a number of saves equal to the margin that they lost the combat by, so that a unit of Tactical Space Marines that lost a combat 6:3 would test on Ld6, roll 1D6+4 for Sweeping Advance, and have 3 saving throws if they suffered No Retreat!

Something to note is that Walkers are not Fearless, but never fall back, so if you have a Dreadnought enter a combat between a unit of Tactical Space Marines and a unit of Orks, then the Tactical Space Marines can use Combat Tactics to withdrawal without any risk of Sweeping Advance by the Orks, because the Orks will be locked in combat with a unit that will not fall back and will not suffer No Retreat!