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pág 67 of the army book says - if a vehicle has already moved, the passengers may disembark, but not move any futher in that movement phase. Once the models have disembarked, the vehicle may not move any futher. After disembarking, these models may shoot, BUT MAY NOT ASSAULT.

so if i understand it well, no more 27" ork movement with Ghazz in turn 2. So you cant move 13+disembark 2+ Whagg 6+ assault 6.
am i wrong or was i understanding wrong when i read about Turn2 27" assault range (it was counting the already moved 13" in the first turn?)

thanx all, im just posting this to clarify my mind.

You may, however, disembark and then assault from an open topped vehicle. Like an Ork Trukk.

Daemon_Dave wrote:You may, however, disembark and then assault from an open topped vehicle. Like an Ork Trukk.

Thanx for the answer...

I reading the rulebook and i completely forgot about this nasty ability of open topped vehicles...

thanks

No problem at all. I rarely post answers to rules questions but I just found out about the fun of open topped vehicles myself

Makes me want to put a hold on my Daemon and Eldar armies and run Orks!

There´s a way to surround a vehicle in CC and turn impossible to the troop inside to disembark, at least to avoid their shooting?

If you get a wrecked result (a "5"), and you completely surround the vehicle, you instant kill the squad. However, if you get a "6" to explod, then the transport is taken off the table and the squad has room to be placed.

Night Lords wrote:If you get a wrecked result (a "5"), and you completely surround the vehicle, you instant kill the squad. However, if you get a "6" to explod, then the transport is taken off the table and the squad has room to be placed.

Its a beauty of a tactic, and works well against vehicles with 1 access point- like a land raider

Landraiders have 3 access points.

Night Lords wrote:If you get a wrecked result (a "5"), and you completely surround the vehicle, you instant kill the squad. However, if you get a "6" to explod, then the transport is taken off the table and the squad has room to be placed.

You might want to consult the rulebook about a wrecked result and emergency disembarking - it specifically addresses what happens when enemy models are too close.

As for when you explode a vehicle, it depends on how well you surround it. Every model inside the vehicle has to be deployed 1" away from enemy models, meaning that a rhino with 10 marines inside that gets exploded is going to be able to finangle 4-6 marines onto the wreckage and meeting deployment requirements if you had it completely surrounded and were assaulting it.

Favorite ork tactic there.

Remember with vehicles your normal guys get a 14 inch assualt range. Disembark 2 inches from the vehicle, move 6, shoot any assualt weapons, and charge.

Dashofpepper wrote:

Night Lords wrote:If you get a wrecked result (a "5"), and you completely surround the vehicle, you instant kill the squad. However, if you get a "6" to explod, then the transport is taken off the table and the squad has room to be placed.

You might want to consult the rulebook about a wrecked result and emergency disembarking - it specifically addresses what happens when enemy models are too close.

If the tank is completely surrounded, the unit is destroyed on a 5. If there's no area around the vehicle, there is no way to emergency disembark.

Dashofpepper wrote:
As for when you explode a vehicle, it depends on how well you surround it. Every model inside the vehicle has to be deployed 1" away from enemy models

We just had a thread on this in YDMC, and noone could provide evidence to support that assertion. Explodes does not use the disembarking rules like wrecked does, and by RAW it appears that the models can be placed anywhere within the vehicles footprint regardless of nearby enemies.

Gorkamorka wrote:

Dashofpepper wrote:
As for when you explode a vehicle, it depends on how well you surround it. Every model inside the vehicle has to be deployed 1" away from enemy models

We just had a thread on this in YDMC, and noone could provide evidence to support that assertion. Explodes does not use the disembarking rules like wrecked does, and by RAW it appears that the models can be placed anywhere within the vehicles footprint regardless of nearby enemies.

I wasn't there for that, and I don't agree. =p Here's the evidence you need:

1. Getting out of a vehicle is disembarking, regardless of how you get out of the vehicle.

2. p.67: If a transport is destroyed (either result) by a ranged attack, the unit that shot it may assault the now disembarked passengers...

3. The rulebook just told us that when destroyed or wrecked, the passengers disembark.

4. When disembarking, there several rules dictating where to play your models, and where they may or may not be placed in relation to other models.

In the case of a vehicle exploding, the models being placed into the now-defunct vehicle's footprint aren't referred to as "now afoot" or "on the ground" they're referred to as "now disembarked." IE, vehicle explodes, passengers disembark into the vehicle footprint, following disembarking rules. I haven't seen the other thread, but if there's a subset of players who prefer to ignore the disembarking rule when they play, that's their business, and house rules where they play.

Moved to YMDC.

Dashofpepper wrote: In the case of a vehicle exploding, the models being placed into the now-defunct vehicle's footprint aren't referred to as "now afoot" or "on the ground" they're referred to as "now disembarked." IE, vehicle explodes, passengers disembark into the vehicle footprint, following disembarking rules.

Actually, the rules (BRB page 67) says the passengers are 'placed' where the vehicle used to be. Doesn't say they have disembarked, and says nothing about following disembarkation rules.

Dashofpepper wrote:1. Getting out of a vehicle is disembarking, regardless of how you get out of the vehicle.

That was the major issue with the last debate. There is nothing stating that the explosion result results in a "disembark" but are rather "placed". It could be imagine that the vehicle disintegrates around them only for them to find themselves standing where it use to be rather then getting slaughtered trying to get out the door.

Sloppy rules writing at it's best.

time wizard wrote:

Dashofpepper wrote: In the case of a vehicle exploding, the models being placed into the now-defunct vehicle's footprint aren't referred to as "now afoot" or "on the ground" they're referred to as "now disembarked." IE, vehicle explodes, passengers disembark into the vehicle footprint, following disembarking rules.

Actually, the rules (BRB page 67) says the passengers are 'placed' where the vehicle used to be. Doesn't say they have disembarked, and says nothing about following disembarkation rules.

Regardless of whether they are placed or are disembarking, the only time that you are specifically allowed to move or place a model within an inch of an enemy model is during an assault move. Are they performing an assault move? Nope, so no placing within an inch of enemy models.

I agree don_mondo. I wasn't saying the models could be placed within 1", I was just saying that according to the rules, models don't disembark from a destroiyed transport, they are placed where it used to be.

Here's a diagram illustrating placing the models where;
The large green rectangle is the transport,
The red circles are the enemy models,
the blue circles are the friendly models



There were 10 models in the transport, it was destroyed, none of the models took wounds so,
8 of the blue models are placed where the transport used to be, they are all 1" away from enemy models.
The 2 blue models left over cannot be placed where the transport used to be so they are lost. Agreed?

don_mondo wrote:

Regardless of whether they are placed or are disembarking, the only time that you are specifically allowed to move or place a model within an inch of an enemy model is during an assault move. Are they performing an assault move? Nope, so no placing within an inch of enemy models.

Please, please, please, provide a rules quote to support this. You are at least the tenth person in this argument to assert that there is a general rule preventing you from placing models within an inch, and not just preventing you from moving within an inch.

time wizard wrote:
The 2 blue models left over cannot be placed where the transport used to be so they are lost. Agreed?

No, not until someone can show that that is how it works in the rulebook.
If placing isn't defined as movement, and explodes placing isn't disembarking, then why do the 1" movement or disembarking restriction rules apply?

So you are saying that disembarking is not movement?
Just so I know which rules to quote.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
For example, the "note" on page 67 after the heading "effects of damage results on passengers" mentions that the the unit that shot the transport may now assault the disembarked passengers.

Are you saying that exploded transports are not part of the "either result" that would trigger this?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Dashofpepper has quoted a fair number of examples in both threads that have been dragged into this one issue, however.

kirsanth wrote:So you are saying that disembarking is not movement?

Please, show me anywhere where I tried to assert this in my post. Please, show me what this fabrication has to do with the argument, as disembarking has its own 1" restriction either way.

Kirsanth wrote:
For example, the "note" on page 67 after the heading "effects of damage results on passengers" mentions that the the unit that shot the transport may now assault the disembarked passengers.

Are you saying that exploded transports are not part of the "either result" that would trigger this?

Are you saying that this language ovverides the actual language in the explodes result rules? Explodes does not use disembarking.
Are we arguing RAW here or not?

Gorkamorka wrote:

don_mondo wrote:

Regardless of whether they are placed or are disembarking, the only time that you are specifically allowed to move or place a model within an inch of an enemy model is during an assault move. Are they performing an assault move? Nope, so no placing within an inch of enemy models.

Please, please, please, provide a rules quote to support this. You are at least the tenth person in this argument to assert that there is a general rule preventing you from placing models within an inch, and not just preventing you from moving within an inch.

BRB page 95 under Deep strike mishaps; "If any models in a deep striking unit cannot be deployed because they would land...within 1' of an enemy model..." and when a unit deepstrikes, the first model from the unit is placed on the table (same page, second paragraph).
I grant that this rule specifically addresses deep striking and not wrecked transports, but many rules in the book work to support other rules. Buit no matter, because here is a rule that clearly states models cannot be placed within 1" of an enemy model.

kirsanth wrote:
Dashofpepper has quoted a fair number of examples in both threads that have been dragged into this one issue, however.

Dash has provided one post in both threads, and you quoted the only rule he mentioned.
Lets go down the list...

1. Getting out of a vehicle is disembarking, regardless of how you get out of the vehicle.
This is not supported by a rules quote, unless he gives one. I don't think the rules support this assertion at all, with a quick check.

2. p.67: If a transport is destroyed (either result) by a ranged attack, the unit that shot it may assault the now disembarked passengers...
This has nothing to do with the RAW working of the explodes result. There are no disembarked passengers from the explodes result wording.

3. The rulebook just told us that when destroyed or wrecked, the passengers disembark.
This is an entirely baseless jump, as the quote does not say that, and is not true.

4. When disembarking, there several rules dictating where to play your models, and where they may or may not be placed in relation to other models.
This is not relevant, as he has not shown that disembarking is used.

time wizard wrote:
BRB page 95 under Deep strike mishaps; "If any models in a deep striking unit cannot be deployed because they would land...within 1' of an enemy model..." and when a unit deepstrikes, the first model from the unit is placed on the table (same page, second paragraph).
I grant that this rule specifically addresses deep striking and not wrecked transports, but many rules in the book work to support other rules. Buit no matter, because here is a rule that clearly states models cannot be placed within 1" of an enemy model.

How is this a general placement rule that should be used for placement rules elsewhere? Not only is it quite specific to deep striking, the result is specific to deep striking.
This is not valid proof that you cannot ever place a model within 1" of an enemy model, at all.

BRB wrote:

EFFECTS OF DAMAGE RESULTS ON PASSENGERS
Destroyed - wrecked
The passengers must immediately disembark and then take a Pinning test. Any models that cannot disembark are destroyed. After this, the vehicle becomes a wreck.

Destroyed - explodes!
The unit suffers a number of Strength 4, AP - hits equal to the number of models embarked, treated just like hits from shooting. The surviving passengers are placed where the vehicle used to be and then take a Pinning test.

Look at these rules. They're right next to eachother in the same table on the same page. How does explodes ever mention disembarking or the disembarking rules?

I understand what you are saying more, and must incredulously ask in seriousness: You are stating that an embarked model that is no longer embarked has never disembarked?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The deepstrike rules are about the only other example of models being placed as their movement.

As the model is moving (it was not in that place when the phase stated, the model has moved) it is also hard to imagine that movement rules would not apply.

That said, I shall read more, if at least to figure out what makes a model being in a different place than it started something other than movement.

kirsanth wrote:I understand what you are saying more, and must incredulously ask in seriousness: You are stating that an embarked model that is no longer embarked has never disembarked?

I must incredulously ask in seriousness: Are you stating that a model that has not disembarked has used the disembarking rules?

Please, stop asking useless questions and provide a rules quote that shows that any time a model is removed from a transport it must use the disembarkation rules.

Go read the disembarking rules, how is the explodes result placing models inside the crater left by a vehicle using the same rules as 'deploying within 2" of one of the vehicles access points'? Can I place my models 'anywhere within 2" of the vehicle's hull' if those are blocked? Your argument is not making sense, and is unsupported by RAW.

I have to agree that all evidence points towards being able to place the models within 1" of enemy models. There is no rule on "placing" units, and the wrecked result right before it places a precedent on the rule.

I am not stating that they have to use the rules for disembarking. I am stating that having a model in a different place than it was is moving it.

Editing to add:
The useless questions were so I could understand your point.
"Disembark" rules would indeed have other stipulations, that I am inclined to agree may not apply.

I do actually struggle to agree that the models have not disembarked with a different set of rules, especially considering the note. But we shall see.

Gorkamorka wrote:

don_mondo wrote:

Regardless of whether they are placed or are disembarking, the only time that you are specifically allowed to move or place a model within an inch of an enemy model is during an assault move. Are they performing an assault move? Nope, so no placing within an inch of enemy models.

Please, please, please, provide a rules quote to support this. You are at least the tenth person in this argument to assert that there is a general rule preventing you from placing models within an inch, and not just preventing you from moving within an inch.

Inference from the Movement and Assault rules. Regardless, you're the one wanting to place them within an inch, please please please quote a rule that specifically says they may be placed within an inch of an enemy model. Doesn't exist, does it?

don_mondo wrote:
Inference from the Movement and Assault rules. Regardless, you're the one wanting to place them within an inch, please please please quote a rule that specifically says they may be placed within an inch of an enemy model. Doesn't exist, does it?

Because it doesn't have to. It says I can place them where the vehicle was with no caveats. The burden of proof is on you to show that another rule applies that stops me from doing that. That is how the rules work.

Please, please, please show me how an 'inference from the movement and assault rules' is a solid rule that applies here?

don_mondo wrote:

Gorkamorka wrote:

don_mondo wrote:

Regardless of whether they are placed or are disembarking, the only time that you are specifically allowed to move or place a model within an inch of an enemy model is during an assault move. Are they performing an assault move? Nope, so no placing within an inch of enemy models.

Please, please, please, provide a rules quote to support this. You are at least the tenth person in this argument to assert that there is a general rule preventing you from placing models within an inch, and not just preventing you from moving within an inch.

Inference from the Movement and Assault rules. Regardless, you're the one wanting to place them within an inch, please please please quote a rule that specifically says they may be placed within an inch of an enemy model. Doesn't exist, does it?

That's silly. The rules for not moving within 1" are restrictions from normal rules. If there are no restrictions, why would they even mention them?