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gendoikari87 wrote:

that really says it all. The only reason we don't have bigger weapons is we don't need them. if we were to face space marines using nothing but close combat we could make an infantry gun that would easilly down them.

Then they bring in the Titans or Orbital Bombard us or chuck a few vortex grenades ... Peeeeooowwww KABLOOEEEY.

Orks don't need weapons, they can kill Titans with a Headbutt

Catyrpelius wrote: He is a giant mushroom man after all.

The Imperium is doing it all wrong, just get loads of weed killer loads and loads, or failing that - you have a solution to widespread hunger

Well thats more out of the Orks metaphysical mind over matter.

Maybe if I belive I'm an Ork hard enough I'll turn into pure awsome!

I had some free time so I decided to do the drag equations for a bolter shell assuming the kicker charge is powerful enough to accelerate it to mach 1

F=(1/2)*(1.25kg/m^3)*(343 m/s)^2*(.1)*(.00223 M^2)=16 newtons

B6 Model Rocket motors, that's civilian model rockets of almost exactly the same size produce about 30 newtons of force about twice that of the air drag at mach one.

Turning around and using the equation to solve for the maximum muzzel velocity for which the modern civilian rocket would not overcome air drag we get about 463m/s

Source for model rocket thrust

http://exploration.grc.nasa.gov/education/rocket/rktengperf.html

and that's with a thick card board sleeve taking up a lot of the room the propellant could use, and with modern civilian grade rockets.

By comparison a 5.56mm travels at about 960m/s and about 720m/s for a 7.62 Russian and that's with several times the energy space capacity for the main charge a longer barre and much less mass.

You realize that modern bullets are often 1200-1500 m/s, right?

This is not a modern bullet, and there's no guarantee it doesn't go magnitudes faster.

Melissia wrote:You realize that modern bullets are often 1200-1500 m/s, right?

This is not a modern bullet, and there's no guarantee it doesn't go magnitudes faster.

Fail melissa, modern bullets travel between 400m/s and 1000, and the thing limiting it to not going any faster is the physics behind firearms. I have proven you wrong scientifically I wash my hands of you. good bye.

Melissia wrote:And then the helmet deflects the AA12 because it's an overhyped piece of gak

Also, getting headshots on moving targets in close combat is far harder than you think it is.

Outside of magic (aka power weaponry), under no circumstances is there a situation where comeone with a pointy stick is going to outpenetrate someone with a range weapon. Unless one side has all power weapons/claws, which they gneerally don't the guys with the guns/burners/phasers/wins.

Its simple physics and math and why armor and pointy sticks went away in the first place. Frankly, worse to worse the guys with the guys get RPGs / 40K equivalent and go tank hunting against the armored freaks.

True, but chainswords are the uber cool and the rule of cool takes over in 40k tactics.

And such things do exist. And chainswords probably also meet that definition as well, as they're supposedly able to cut through many forms of armor. But the main reason that power armor works so well in 40k is its rarity, most forces just aren't equipped to deal with it.

gendoikari87 wrote:True, but chainswords are the uber cool and the rule of cool takes over in 40k tactics.

Meh chainswords are stupid, unless wielded by Orks.

Orks, natures ultimate post apocayptic road warrior, cutting down necrons and everything else since 69,000,000 BC.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Melissia wrote:And such things do exist. And chainswords probably also meet that definition as well, as they're supposedly able to cut through many forms of armor. But the main reason that power armor works so well in 40k is its rarity, most forces just aren't equipped to deal with it.

At the ernd of the day its still slower and less kinetic energy than a bang stick. Not to mention the kick back on a chainsword would likely kill you very quickly.

From a chart I now have hanging on my wall.

Cartridge (Wb + type) MV (fps)
.17 Rem. (25 SpHP) 4040
.204 Ruger (32 BTSP) 4225
.218 Bee (46 HP) 2760
.219 Zipper (55 SP) 3400
.22 Hornet (45 Sp) 2690
.221 Fireball (50 SpBT) 2995
.22 PPC (52 HPBT) 3400
.222 Rem. (50 Sp) 3140
.223 Rem. (45 SpHP) 3550
.223 Rem. (50 SpHP) 3300
.223 Rem. (55 Sp) 3240
.223 Rem. (64 Sp) 3090
5.6x50 Mag. (50 SP) 3600
5.6x50R Mag. (55 SP) 3300
.225 Win. (55 Sp) 3570
.22-250 Rem. (45 SpHP) 4000
.22-250 Rem. (55 Sp) 3680
.22-250 Rem. (60 Sp) 3500
.224 Wby. Mag. (55 Sp) 3650
.220 Swift (55 SpBT) 3800
.223 WSSM (55 SpBT) 3850
5.6x57 RWS (60 Sp) 3600
6mm BR Rem. (100 Sp) 2550
6mm PPC (68 SpHP) 3100
.243 Win. (80 Sp) 3350
.243 Win. (90 BT) 3300
.243 Win. (95 SST) 3100
.243 Win. (100 Sp) 2960
.243 Win. (105 Sp) 2900
6mm Rem. (80 Sp) 3470
6mm Rem. (100 Sp) 3100
.243 WSSM (55 SpBT) 4060
.243 WSSM (100 Sp) 3110
6x62 Freres (100 SP) 3300
.240 Wby. Mag. (100 Sp) 3406
.244 H&H Mag. (100 Sp) 3500
.25-20 (86 FP) 1460
.256 Win. Mag. (60 FP) 2800
.25 Rem. (100 RN) 2330
.25-35 (117 FP) 2230
.250 Savage (100 Sp) 2820
.257 Roberts (100 BT) 3100
.257 Roberts (117 SST) 2940
.257 Roberts (120 Sp) 2780
.257 Roberts (120 Sp) 2800
.257 Rob. Imp. (117 BTSP) 2900
.25 WSSM (120 Sp) 2834
.25 WSSM (120 Sp) 2990
.25-06 Rem. (100 Sp) 3230
.25-06 Rem. (120 Sp) 2990
.257 Wby. Mag. (87 SP) 3700
.257 Wby. Mag. (100 SP) 3602
.257 Wby. Mag. (120 Sp) 3305
6.5mm Grendel (120 BT) 2600
6.5x50 Jap. (156 Sp) 2067
6.5x52 Carcano (156 Sp) 2428
6.5x54 M-S (140 SP) 2400
6.5x55 SE (100 SP) 3100
6.5x55 SE (129 SP) 2700
6.5x55 SE (129 SP) 2770
6.5x55 SE (140 Sp) 2600
6.5x55 SE (140 SP) 2740
.260 Rem. (120 Sp) 2890
.260 Rem. (140 Sp) 2750
6.5x57 (140 SP) 2700
6.5-284 (140 Sp) 2953
6.5mm-06 (140 Sp) 2953
6.5mm Rem. Mag. (120 Sp) 3210
6.5mm Rem. Mag. (129 SP) 3100
6.5x65 RWS (129 BTSP) 3200
6.5x65R RWS (100 SP) 3400
6.5x68 S (140 Sp) 2990
.264 Win. Mag. (140 Sp) 3030
6.8mm Rem. SPC (100 SP) 3000
6.8mm Rem. SPC (115 Sp) 2625
6.8mm Rem. SPC (120 BT) 2700
.270 Win. (130 Sp) 3060
.270 Win. (140 Sp) 3100
.270 Win. (150 Sp) 2850
.270 WSM (130 SpBT) 3275
.270 WSM (150 Sp) 3150
.270 Wby. Mag. (130 Sp) 3375
.270 Wby. Mag. (150 Sp) 3245
7x33 Sako (78 RN) 2430
7-30 Waters (120 FP) 2700
7x57 Mauser (140 Sp) 2660
7x57 Mauser (150 Sp) 2690
7mm-08 Rem. (120 SpHP) 3000
7mm-08 Rem. (140 Sp) 2860
7x64 Brenneke (154 Sp) 2821
7x65R (170 Sp) 2625
.284 Win. (150 Sp) 2860
.280 Rem. (140 Sp) 3000
.280 Rem. (160 Sp) 2890
7mm Rem. SAUM (150 Sp) 3110
7mm WSM (150 Sp) 3200
.275 H&H Mag. (160 Sp) 2700
.275 H&H Mag. (160 Sp) 3050
7x61 S&H Mag. (154 SP) 3000
7mm Rem. Mag. (150 SpBT) 3110
7mm Rem. Mag. (175 Sp) 2860
7mm Wby. Mag. (150 SpBT) 3300
7mm Wby. Mag. (160 Sp) 3200
7mm STW (160 SpBT) 3200
7mm Ultra Mag (160 Sp) 3200
7.5x54 MAS (150 SP) 2500
7.5x55 Swiss (180 Sp) 2651
.30 Carbine (110 RN) 1990
.30 Rem. (170 RN) 2120
.30-30 Win. (150 FP) 2390
.30-30 Win. (160 EVO) 2400
.30-30 Win. (150 FP) 2480
.30-30 Win. (170 FP) 2200
.300 Sav. (150 Sp) 2630
.300 Sav. (180 Sp) 2350
.307 Win. (180 FP) 2435
.307 Win. (180 FP) 2510
.308 Marlin (160 EVO) 2660
.30-40 Krag (180 Sp) 2430
7.62x54R (150 SP) 2700
.308 Win. (150 Sp) 2820
.308 Win. (165 BTSP) 2685
.308 Win. (165 BTSP) 2870
.308 Win. (180 Sp) 2620
.30-06 Spfd. (150 Sp) 2910
.30-06 Spfd. (165 PSP) 2800
.30-06 Spfd. (165 BTSP) 3015
.30-06 Spfd. (180 Sp) 2700
.30R Blaser (180 SP) 2800
.300 Rem. SAUM (150 Sp) 3200
.300 Rem. SAUM (180 Sp) 2960
.300 WSM (150 Sp) 3300
.300 WSM (180 Sp) 2970
.308 Norma Mag. (180 Sp) 2953
.300 Win. Mag. (150 Sp) 3290
.300 Win. Mag. (180 Sp) 2960
.300 H&H. Mag. (180 Sp) 2880
.300 Wby. Mag. (180 Sp) 3240
.300 Ultra Mag (180 Sp) 3250
.30-378 Wby. (200 Sp) 3160
7.62x39 (125 Sp) 2365
7.65x53 (180 Sp) 2592
.303 Savage (190 RN) 1890
.303 British (150 SP) 2830
.303 British (180 Sp) 2460
7.7x58 Jap. (180 Sp) 2493
.318 W-R (180 RN) 2700
.32-20 (100 FP) 1210
.32 Rem. (170 RN) 2120
.32 Spec. (170 FP) 2250
8x56 M-S (170 RN) 2260
8x57 JS (150 SP) 2800
8mm-06 (150 SP) 2900
.325 WSM (200 Sp) 2875
8x68 S (150 SP) 3300
8x68 S (200 Sp) 2950
8x68 S (220 SP) 2800
8mm Rem. Mag. (200 Sp) 2900
8mm Rem. Mag. (200 Sp) 3000
.33 Win. (200 FP) 2200
.338 Federal (180 BT) 2830
.338 Federal (200 Sp) 2400
.338 Federal (210 NP) 2630
.338-06 (200 Sp) 2750
.338 Win. Mag. (200 Sp) 2950
.338 Win. Mag. (225 Sp) 2780
.338 Win. Mag. (250 Sp) 2650
.340 Wby. Mag. (250 Sp) 2941
.338 Ultra Mag (250 Sp) 2860
.338 Lapua (250 SP) 2800
.338-378 Wby. (250 Sp) 3060
.348 Win. (200 FP) 2520
.357 Mag. (158 FP) 1830
.357 Mag. (180 HP) 1550
.35 Rem. (200 RN) 2080
.35 Win. (250 RN) 2195
.356 Win. (200 FP) 2460
.358 Win. (200 Sp) 2490
.35 Whelen (200 Sp) 2675
.35 Whelen (225 NP) 2525
.35 Whelen (250 Sp) 2400
.35 Whelen (250 NP) 2500
.350 Rem. Mag. (200 PSP) 2775
.350 Rem. Mag. (225 NP) 2600
.350 Rem. Mag. (225 NP) 2700
.350 Rem. Mag. (250 SP) 2500
.350 Rem. Mag. (250 NP) 2570
.358 Norma Mag. (250 Sp) 2723
.358 STA (275 RN) 2850
9.3x53R (256 RN) 2330
9.3x57 (286 Sp) 2067
9.3x62 (286 SpBT) 2362
9.3x64 (286 RN) 2700
9.3x74R (286 Sp) 2362
.375 Win. (200 FP) 2200
.375 H&H Mag. (270 Sp) 2690
.375 H&H Mag. (300 Sp) 2530
.375 Wby. Mag. (300 Sp) 2800
.375 Ultra Mag (300 Sp) 2760
.376 Steyr (270 SP) 2600
.378 Wby. Mag. (270 SP) 3180
.38-40 Win. (180 FP) 1160
.38-55 Win. (255 FP) 1320
.450-400 3" (400 RN) 2150
.400 H&H Mag. (400 RN) 2375
.404 Jeffery (400 RN) 2150
.405 Win. (300 FP) 2200
.416 Rem. Mag. (400 Sp) 2400
.416 Rigby (400 RN) 2370
.416 Wby. Mag. (400 RN) 2700
.44-40 Win. (200 FP) 1190
.44 Rem. Mag. (240 FP) 1760
.44 Rem. Mag. (275 HP) 1580
.444 Marlin (240 FP) 2350
.444 Marlin (265 FP) 2335
.450 Marlin (350 FP) 2100
.45-70 (300 HP) 1810
.45-70 (405 FP) 1330
.450 NE (465 RN) 2190
.458 Win. Mag. (350 RN) 2470
.458 Win. Mag. (450 SSp) 2083
.458 Win. Mag. (500 RN) 2090
.458 Lott (500 RN) 2300
.460 Wby. Mag. (500 RN) 2600
.470 NE (500 RN) 2150
.500 NE (570 RN) 2150
.50 BMG (750 SpBT) 2750
.600 NE (900 RN) 1950

Frazzled wrote:At the ernd of the day its still slower and less kinetic energy than a bang stick. Not to mention the kick back on a chainsword would likely kill you very quickly.

That's why it has a cover on the reverse edge. It's really intended to be a two-handed weapon, and you push down on the cover to add more force to it. Not like anyone uses it that way.

It may have less kinetic energy, but close combat weapons can actually cause far deeper wounds than a bullet.

For example, if I were to use an axe and slice your gut open from hip to hip, compared to firing a bullet into the gut, which one do you think would be a bigger emergency?

Catyrpelius wrote:From a chart I now have hanging on my wall.

Cartridge (Wb + type) MV (fps)
.17 Rem. (25 SpHP) 4040
.204 Ruger (32 BTSP) 4225
.218 Bee (46 HP) 2760
.219 Zipper (55 SP) 3400
.22 Hornet (45 Sp) 2690
.221 Fireball (50 SpBT) 2995
.22 PPC (52 HPBT) 3400
.222 Rem. (50 Sp) 3140
.223 Rem. (45 SpHP) 3550
.223 Rem. (50 SpHP) 3300
.223 Rem. (55 Sp) 3240
.223 Rem. (64 Sp) 3090
5.6x50 Mag. (50 SP) 3600
5.6x50R Mag. (55 SP) 3300
.225 Win. (55 Sp) 3570
.22-250 Rem. (45 SpHP) 4000
.22-250 Rem. (55 Sp) 3680
.22-250 Rem. (60 Sp) 3500
.224 Wby. Mag. (55 Sp) 3650
.220 Swift (55 SpBT) 3800
.223 WSSM (55 SpBT) 3850
5.6x57 RWS (60 Sp) 3600
6mm BR Rem. (100 Sp) 2550
6mm PPC (68 SpHP) 3100
.243 Win. (80 Sp) 3350
.243 Win. (90 BT) 3300
.243 Win. (95 SST) 3100
.243 Win. (100 Sp) 2960
.243 Win. (105 Sp) 2900
6mm Rem. (80 Sp) 3470
6mm Rem. (100 Sp) 3100
.243 WSSM (55 SpBT) 4060
.243 WSSM (100 Sp) 3110
6x62 Freres (100 SP) 3300
.240 Wby. Mag. (100 Sp) 3406
.244 H&H Mag. (100 Sp) 3500
.25-20 (86 FP) 1460
.256 Win. Mag. (60 FP) 2800
.25 Rem. (100 RN) 2330
.25-35 (117 FP) 2230
.250 Savage (100 Sp) 2820
.257 Roberts (100 BT) 3100
.257 Roberts (117 SST) 2940
.257 Roberts (120 Sp) 2780
.257 Roberts (120 Sp) 2800
.257 Rob. Imp. (117 BTSP) 2900
.25 WSSM (120 Sp) 2834
.25 WSSM (120 Sp) 2990
.25-06 Rem. (100 Sp) 3230
.25-06 Rem. (120 Sp) 2990
.257 Wby. Mag. (87 SP) 3700
.257 Wby. Mag. (100 SP) 3602
.257 Wby. Mag. (120 Sp) 3305
6.5mm Grendel (120 BT) 2600
6.5x50 Jap. (156 Sp) 2067
6.5x52 Carcano (156 Sp) 2428
6.5x54 M-S (140 SP) 2400
6.5x55 SE (100 SP) 3100
6.5x55 SE (129 SP) 2700
6.5x55 SE (129 SP) 2770
6.5x55 SE (140 Sp) 2600
6.5x55 SE (140 SP) 2740
.260 Rem. (120 Sp) 2890
.260 Rem. (140 Sp) 2750
6.5x57 (140 SP) 2700
6.5-284 (140 Sp) 2953
6.5mm-06 (140 Sp) 2953
6.5mm Rem. Mag. (120 Sp) 3210
6.5mm Rem. Mag. (129 SP) 3100
6.5x65 RWS (129 BTSP) 3200
6.5x65R RWS (100 SP) 3400
6.5x68 S (140 Sp) 2990
.264 Win. Mag. (140 Sp) 3030
6.8mm Rem. SPC (100 SP) 3000
6.8mm Rem. SPC (115 Sp) 2625
6.8mm Rem. SPC (120 BT) 2700
.270 Win. (130 Sp) 3060
.270 Win. (140 Sp) 3100
.270 Win. (150 Sp) 2850
.270 WSM (130 SpBT) 3275
.270 WSM (150 Sp) 3150
.270 Wby. Mag. (130 Sp) 3375
.270 Wby. Mag. (150 Sp) 3245
7x33 Sako (78 RN) 2430
7-30 Waters (120 FP) 2700
7x57 Mauser (140 Sp) 2660
7x57 Mauser (150 Sp) 2690
7mm-08 Rem. (120 SpHP) 3000
7mm-08 Rem. (140 Sp) 2860
7x64 Brenneke (154 Sp) 2821
7x65R (170 Sp) 2625
.284 Win. (150 Sp) 2860
.280 Rem. (140 Sp) 3000
.280 Rem. (160 Sp) 2890
7mm Rem. SAUM (150 Sp) 3110
7mm WSM (150 Sp) 3200
.275 H&H Mag. (160 Sp) 2700
.275 H&H Mag. (160 Sp) 3050
7x61 S&H Mag. (154 SP) 3000
7mm Rem. Mag. (150 SpBT) 3110
7mm Rem. Mag. (175 Sp) 2860
7mm Wby. Mag. (150 SpBT) 3300
7mm Wby. Mag. (160 Sp) 3200
7mm STW (160 SpBT) 3200
7mm Ultra Mag (160 Sp) 3200
7.5x54 MAS (150 SP) 2500
7.5x55 Swiss (180 Sp) 2651
.30 Carbine (110 RN) 1990
.30 Rem. (170 RN) 2120
.30-30 Win. (150 FP) 2390
.30-30 Win. (160 EVO) 2400
.30-30 Win. (150 FP) 2480
.30-30 Win. (170 FP) 2200
.300 Sav. (150 Sp) 2630
.300 Sav. (180 Sp) 2350
.307 Win. (180 FP) 2435
.307 Win. (180 FP) 2510
.308 Marlin (160 EVO) 2660
.30-40 Krag (180 Sp) 2430
7.62x54R (150 SP) 2700
.308 Win. (150 Sp) 2820
.308 Win. (165 BTSP) 2685
.308 Win. (165 BTSP) 2870
.308 Win. (180 Sp) 2620
.30-06 Spfd. (150 Sp) 2910
.30-06 Spfd. (165 PSP) 2800
.30-06 Spfd. (165 BTSP) 3015
.30-06 Spfd. (180 Sp) 2700
.30R Blaser (180 SP) 2800
.300 Rem. SAUM (150 Sp) 3200
.300 Rem. SAUM (180 Sp) 2960
.300 WSM (150 Sp) 3300
.300 WSM (180 Sp) 2970
.308 Norma Mag. (180 Sp) 2953
.300 Win. Mag. (150 Sp) 3290
.300 Win. Mag. (180 Sp) 2960
.300 H&H. Mag. (180 Sp) 2880
.300 Wby. Mag. (180 Sp) 3240
.300 Ultra Mag (180 Sp) 3250
.30-378 Wby. (200 Sp) 3160
7.62x39 (125 Sp) 2365
7.65x53 (180 Sp) 2592
.303 Savage (190 RN) 1890
.303 British (150 SP) 2830
.303 British (180 Sp) 2460
7.7x58 Jap. (180 Sp) 2493
.318 W-R (180 RN) 2700
.32-20 (100 FP) 1210
.32 Rem. (170 RN) 2120
.32 Spec. (170 FP) 2250
8x56 M-S (170 RN) 2260
8x57 JS (150 SP) 2800
8mm-06 (150 SP) 2900
.325 WSM (200 Sp) 2875
8x68 S (150 SP) 3300
8x68 S (200 Sp) 2950
8x68 S (220 SP) 2800
8mm Rem. Mag. (200 Sp) 2900
8mm Rem. Mag. (200 Sp) 3000
.33 Win. (200 FP) 2200
.338 Federal (180 BT) 2830
.338 Federal (200 Sp) 2400
.338 Federal (210 NP) 2630
.338-06 (200 Sp) 2750
.338 Win. Mag. (200 Sp) 2950
.338 Win. Mag. (225 Sp) 2780
.338 Win. Mag. (250 Sp) 2650
.340 Wby. Mag. (250 Sp) 2941
.338 Ultra Mag (250 Sp) 2860
.338 Lapua (250 SP) 2800
.338-378 Wby. (250 Sp) 3060
.348 Win. (200 FP) 2520
.357 Mag. (158 FP) 1830
.357 Mag. (180 HP) 1550
.35 Rem. (200 RN) 2080
.35 Win. (250 RN) 2195
.356 Win. (200 FP) 2460
.358 Win. (200 Sp) 2490
.35 Whelen (200 Sp) 2675
.35 Whelen (225 NP) 2525
.35 Whelen (250 Sp) 2400
.35 Whelen (250 NP) 2500
.350 Rem. Mag. (200 PSP) 2775
.350 Rem. Mag. (225 NP) 2600
.350 Rem. Mag. (225 NP) 2700
.350 Rem. Mag. (250 SP) 2500
.350 Rem. Mag. (250 NP) 2570
.358 Norma Mag. (250 Sp) 2723
.358 STA (275 RN) 2850
9.3x53R (256 RN) 2330
9.3x57 (286 Sp) 2067
9.3x62 (286 SpBT) 2362
9.3x64 (286 RN) 2700
9.3x74R (286 Sp) 2362
.375 Win. (200 FP) 2200
.375 H&H Mag. (270 Sp) 2690
.375 H&H Mag. (300 Sp) 2530
.375 Wby. Mag. (300 Sp) 2800
.375 Ultra Mag (300 Sp) 2760
.376 Steyr (270 SP) 2600
.378 Wby. Mag. (270 SP) 3180
.38-40 Win. (180 FP) 1160
.38-55 Win. (255 FP) 1320
.450-400 3" (400 RN) 2150
.400 H&H Mag. (400 RN) 2375
.404 Jeffery (400 RN) 2150
.405 Win. (300 FP) 2200
.416 Rem. Mag. (400 Sp) 2400
.416 Rigby (400 RN) 2370
.416 Wby. Mag. (400 RN) 2700
.44-40 Win. (200 FP) 1190
.44 Rem. Mag. (240 FP) 1760
.44 Rem. Mag. (275 HP) 1580
.444 Marlin (240 FP) 2350
.444 Marlin (265 FP) 2335
.450 Marlin (350 FP) 2100
.45-70 (300 HP) 1810
.45-70 (405 FP) 1330
.450 NE (465 RN) 2190
.458 Win. Mag. (350 RN) 2470
.458 Win. Mag. (450 SSp) 2083
.458 Win. Mag. (500 RN) 2090
.458 Lott (500 RN) 2300
.460 Wby. Mag. (500 RN) 2600
.470 NE (500 RN) 2150
.500 NE (570 RN) 2150
.50 BMG (750 SpBT) 2750
.600 NE (900 RN) 1950

you got that in M/S I need something to do this christmas break and calculating bullet drops at a half mile sounds fun. Do I need them in M/S no, but I'm a physicist and we use metric, like I used above.

No, I'm American and we use the the United States Customary Unit.

Catyrpelius wrote:From a chart I now have hanging on my wall.

Ah wall of text makes baby Jebus cry!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Melissia wrote:

Frazzled wrote:At the ernd of the day its still slower and less kinetic energy than a bang stick. Not to mention the kick back on a chainsword would likely kill you very quickly.

That's why it has a cover on the reverse edge. It's really intended to be a two-handed weapon, and you push down on the cover to add more force to it. Not like anyone uses it that way.

It may have less kinetic energy, but close combat weapons can actually cause far deeper wounds than a bullet.

For example, if I were to use an axe and slice your gut open from hip to hip, compared to firing a bullet into the gut, which one do you think would be a bigger emergency?

Translation, you've never used a either a gun OR a chainsaw.

-When I say kickback I mean a spinning blade thing, when it hits something hard is going to go flying, with a good chance of flying out of your hands. Putting you "hand on the back" isn't going to help appreciably, plus its going to slow you down substantially, plus how exactly are yuou going to do that in a bash bash situation?

-Axe vs. bullet. Again we're talking penetration. I will assume you forgot that and not that you'aren't aware of the difference between penetration and damage.
I'll note you didn't answer how a pointy stick is better than a projectile for penetration. I'll also note its a false comparison. Forget firing a bullet, fire a shotgun round. That will do more damage then an axe, or a nice 30-06 round and watch the guys head explode like a watermellon. Plus the shooter can do that at range.

A bolter shell is supposedly .75 cal or about 19mm. Non explosive 20mm shells go just over 1000m/s. That would be more than adequete for armor penetration. A rocket can deliver just as much energy. There are shoulder fired anti emplacement rockets that can penetrate over a foot of reinforced concrete. Rockets main advantage is there lack of kinetic fall off. They can go their optimal speed longer or cruise efficiently right up until they go full balistic in a final spurt of acceleration. Whatever technological innovations "occur" between now and the dark age of mankind, some bolter like weapon is easily with in the realm of possibility and would be capable of doing what its described as doing.

The advantage of close combat vs. ranged combat is the reliability of lethality. A bullet if it misses doesn't get a second chance. A person with a blade can keep trying till they're done. A person with a bullet needs one for each attempt. The things that protect and armor a person in ranged combat don't necessarily do as well in close combat. The reason you can justify close combat in 40k is simply that for the lethality of all the ranged weapons they are equally as reliable as close combat. Thus the lower demands on supply lines for the later in a universe of scarce resources promotes it as a viable means of fighting. The fact that any army in the 40k universe uses close combat units would then demand the capability to fend off or counter attack those units, such that some like nids and orks use it as a matter of principle while marines may have first used it more reactionary.

You have to remember that every bolter shell is hand built by some low level tech priest, who spends probably close to a year per shell. There are just millions of techpriests across the galaxy doing so. That makes even the most convential marine weapon something you wouldn't want to have waste ammo. On the average world its scarce or impossible to find. When you take that into consideration given a person with enough physical prowess it maybe more worthwhile to fight in close combat to save that bolter shell for the next fight.

I have used a chainsaw before, though admittedly it was closer to a chainsaw on a stick, to chop down branches of a tree. Not in combat, mind you, but modern chainsaws aren't exactly designe for combat and so can't really be compared

As for the rest, no, I wasn't tlaking about penetration. Nice for you to notice. But actually in many cases modern body armor isn't really all that good against knives and etc compared to bullets... not without much heavier armor.

Melissia wrote:

Frazzled wrote:At the ernd of the day its still slower and less kinetic energy than a bang stick. Not to mention the kick back on a chainsword would likely kill you very quickly.

That's why it has a cover on the reverse edge. It's really intended to be a two-handed weapon, and you push down on the cover to add more force to it. Not like anyone uses it that way.

It may have less kinetic energy, but close combat weapons can actually cause far deeper wounds than a bullet.

For example, if I were to use an axe and slice your gut open from hip to hip, compared to firing a bullet into the gut, which one do you think would be a bigger emergency?

Hmn, I think you need to go have a look at terminal ballistics. In NATO we use 5.56 FMJ rounds to inflict plenty of damage. Basically the round goes in and it bounces around your insides tearing everything up. Also if the round happens to go through you it takes a lot of stuff out the exit hole. The round also tends to go in sideways on impact making a mess. Police tend to use hollow point rounds without FMJ for more stopping power and a greater degree of lethality. The round essentially breaks up inside you. A knife, sword or sharpened axe tend to have cleaner cut wounds. Of course you could be using serrated blades and stuff like that to cause more damage.

To answer your question. If a round is designed for Hyrostatic shock it will do far more damage than any battle axe.

Cleaner cut wounds, maybe, but also much larger wounds, and cutting more of the body as the weapon goes in then out. I never doubted the lethality of hydrostatic shock, but when one considers somethign with the strength of a raging ork slashing its huge, heavy, and sharp choppa across a person's body, it has the potential to literally cut them in half through sheer brute force.

(mind you, humans have survived really peculiar wounds, like having a pickaxe stuck in one's head and still managing to live a normal life after it was pulled out...).

Melissia wrote:Cleaner cut wounds, maybe, but also much larger wounds, and cutting more of the body as the weapon goes in then out. I never doubted the lethality of hydrostatic shock, but when one considers somethign with the strength of a raging ork slashing its huge, heavy, and sharp choppa across a person's body, it has the potential to literally cut them in half through sheer brute force.

(mind you, humans have survived really peculiar wounds, like having a pickaxe stuck in one's head and still managing to live a normal life after it was pulled out...).

And an ork can carry a much bigger gun in comparison that can also blow you in half. AT RANGE.

EDIT: I should note here I am not trying to compare 40K weaponry to today's weaponry on which is better, I'm talking pure phsyics in relation to the effectively of penetrating chemically launched weaponry vs. pointy sticks, by the same race. An ape may be able to have more penetrative capacity with a halberd than than your local hooligan with a .32, but an ape swinging a halberd is at a disadvantage than an ape firing an ape sized shotgun or rifle (or hand cannon in the case of an ape )

Sure-- IF the ork can actually manage to hit you and the bullet can get through your armor.

Common flak armor can deflect/absorb slugga/shoota shots.

Melissia wrote:Sure-- IF the ork can actually manage to hit you and the bullet can get through your armor.

Common flak armor can deflect/absorb slugga/shoota shots.

then it would be even better vs. a guy with a pointy stick.

What if its a Power Pointy Stick?

Catyrpelius wrote:What if its a Power Pointy Stick?

Then look out. The immortal bard always said, keep away from the guy with the power pointy stick...

Ber better if you strapped a rocket to it though...

One battle axe vs one bullet... the bullet needs only miss once to be rendered inconsequential. We can go into all the reason a bullet that optimized hitting an unarmored target is better, but against armor it would knock the guy down and he'd get back up. In 40k every time you roll a hit but fail to wound thats exactly whats happend. Depending on armor and the bullet the armor may still be good or rendered useless. In a close combat fight an axe would shatter a modern balistic plate, much like a powersword through a guardsmen.

From a lethality stand point, axes have more mass and more contact area, in an engagement causing a larger volume of superficial wounds, to armored areas: blunt force trauma and broken bones and unarmored: disemboweling and loss of limb.

A Rocket Powered Power Point Stick would be to powerful and break the game.

A Sword or an Axe has more Kinetic energy then a bullet.

aka_mythos wrote:One battle axe vs one bullet... the bullet needs only miss once to be rendered inconsequential. We can go into all the reason a bullet that optimized hitting an unarmored target is better, but against armor it would knock the guy down and he'd get back up. In 40k every time you roll a hit but fail to wound thats exactly whats happend. Depending on armor and the bullet the armor may still be good or rendered useless. In a close combat fight an axe would shatter a modern balistic plate, much like a powersword through a guardsmen.

From a lethality stand point, axes have more mass and more contact area, in an engagement causing a larger volume of superficial wounds, to armored areas: blunt force trauma and broken bones and unarmored: disemboweling and loss of limb.

1. Of course my real point was that a bullet will penetrate better than an axe, but going with this topic:

2. I have a bullet and the good guy ("GG") has an axe. I shoot GG from 600 meters away. I miss. GG charges

I run away laughing, or

I wait.
I wait some more.
I make breakfast.
drink some coffee.
ponder the ultimate greatness that is the Emperor's wisdom.
I reload.
I shoot the good guy.

The bullet is deflected by the GG armor and he chops your head off with his axe. He then feasts on Roast Weiner dog.

Catyrpelius wrote:A Rocket Powered Power Point Stick would be to powerful and break the game.

A Sword or an Axe has more Kinetic energy then a bullet.

Do you have stats on the foot pounds of a sword or axe? Lets then compare that to a .308 round (7.62 NATO for you Eurodudes). That would be interesting. The intranets are showing all over the place for a sword from 70 to 2000 (what the?) need to investigate more.

Yes, assuming that you can actually hit at 600 meters, which most people can't, and assuming you and the enemy have 600 meters of flat, open terrain between you, which is unlikely.