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Frazzled wrote:

Catyrpelius wrote:A Rocket Powered Power Point Stick would be to powerful and break the game.

A Sword or an Axe has more Kinetic energy then a bullet.

Do you have stats on the foot pounds of a sword or axe? Lets then compare that to a .308 round (7.62 NATO for you Eurodudes). That would be interesting. The intranets are showing all over the place for a sword from 70 to 2000 (what the?) need to investigate more.

The problem is though, that the sword or axe has alot more weight behind it where as the bullet is fairly light... It sort of balances, but not quite.

Catyrpelius wrote:The bullet is deflected by the GG armor and he chops your head off with his axe. He then feasts on Roast Weiner dog.

Now you're fighting dirty. Fortunately the weiner dog legions are prepared for any contingency:




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Melissia wrote:Yes, assuming that you can actually hit at 600 meters, which most people can't, and assuming you and the enemy have 600 meters of flat, open terrain between you, which is unlikely.

Well thats the best possible scenario for him. Otherwise we're talking something much more interesting, like my guy calling artillery on the fool running at him with a pointy stick, or having a gun with a whole lot of bullets, after all even in the far future mankind has evolved beyond...flintlocks.

Frazzled wrote:Well thats the best possible scenario for him. Otherwise we're talking something much more interesting, like my guy calling artillery on the fool running at him with a pointy stick, or having a gun with a whole lot of bullets, after all even in the far future mankind has evolved beyond...flintlocks.

Yupp, now some PDF's fight with Laslocks.

Catyrpelius wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

Catyrpelius wrote:A Rocket Powered Power Point Stick would be to powerful and break the game.

A Sword or an Axe has more Kinetic energy then a bullet.

Do you have stats on the foot pounds of a sword or axe? Lets then compare that to a .308 round (7.62 NATO for you Eurodudes). That would be interesting. The intranets are showing all over the place for a sword from 70 to 2000 (what the?) need to investigate more.

The problem is though, that the sword or axe has alot more weight behind it where as the bullet is fairly light... It sort of balances, but not quite.

Except, as you know all the force in a bullet is lterally focused on one point. The axe may be able to have more total foot pounds, but the bullet has more pounds per sq inch.

Again this is human shooter focused. 40K has a plethora of races with "magical" weaponry (demons, rending nids, eldar with interesting weapons) that makes cc more prevalent. But a betyter view of 40K is actually epic gaming. In that actual for real cc is much more uncommon. Everything is dead by then.


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Catyrpelius wrote:

Frazzled wrote:Well thats the best possible scenario for him. Otherwise we're talking something much more interesting, like my guy calling artillery on the fool running at him with a pointy stick, or having a gun with a whole lot of bullets, after all even in the far future mankind has evolved beyond...flintlocks.

Yupp, now some PDF's fight with Laslocks.

Only loser chaos. The Emperor's servants have the latest in technobarbarians lasgunnage.

The majority of the 40k universe isnt CC oriented though. There are many forces that get owned in CC if they cant stop the enemy from reaching them.

Catyrpelius wrote:The majority of the 40k universe isnt CC oriented though. There are many forces that get owned in CC if they cant stop the enemy from reaching them.

Yep. Tau, your average guard dude against many of his opponents, humans against those nefarious demon dudes.

Frazzled wrote:Well thats the best possible scenario for him.

Him who is the one being fired at, no.

It's an ideal situation for the one actually doing the firing.

Melissia wrote:

Frazzled wrote:Well thats the best possible scenario for him.

Him who is the one being fired at, no.

It's an ideal situation for the one actually doing the firing.

Find me a better one.

Thus the lower demands on supply lines for the later in a universe of scarce resources promotes it as a viable means of fighting. The fact that any army in the 40k universe uses close combat units would then demand the capability to fend off or counter attack those units, such that some like nids and orks use it as a matter of principle while marines may have first used it more reactionary.

That's what energy weapons are for. 0 Supply line, and yes you win wars by attacking the logistics not the soldiers of your enemy.

As for the rest, no, I wasn't tlaking about penetration. Nice for you to notice. But actually in many cases modern body armor isn't really all that good against knives and etc compared to bullets... not without much heavier armor.

Hey you got something right for once, here's a cookie. Problem with close combat is though you have to get into close combat range, and more often than not your going to be dead by the time you get there unless you get the drop on them Secret agent or ninja style. I don't know about where you live but we don't have any secret agents... we do have one ninja though.

Frazzled wrote:

Catyrpelius wrote:The majority of the 40k universe isnt CC oriented though. There are many forces that get owned in CC if they cant stop the enemy from reaching them.

Yep. Tau, your average guard dude against many of his opponents, humans against those nefarious demon dudes.

Well Space Marines can go either way, and this is supported by what they are. It would be pointless for them to stand at range while they could be doing both.

Imperial Guard, Nothing says massed fire like the guard.

Tau, in the same boat as the guard.

Orks, are what they are. A green tide.

Nids, same as the Orks

Deamons, same as the Orks, only with more "teleporting"

Eldar, pretty much like the Guard except more elite and they can handel the occasional close combat.

Now that I really think about it, if the number of players for every army was equal there would be less of an emphasis on close combat.

Actually eldar can do cc quite well. Their combat units (aspects) are decent even in cc especially with their high initiatives. Their dedicated CC units (banshees, scorpions) are concentrated win in cc.

Melissia wrote:Cleaner cut wounds, maybe, but also much larger wounds, and cutting more of the body as the weapon goes in then out. I never doubted the lethality of hydrostatic shock, but when one considers somethign with the strength of a raging ork slashing its huge, heavy, and sharp choppa across a person's body, it has the potential to literally cut them in half through sheer brute force.

(mind you, humans have survived really peculiar wounds, like having a pickaxe stuck in one's head and still managing to live a normal life after it was pulled out...).

see this isn' correct. I used to think this as well untill I took a look at the hydrodynamics of the bullet and the hydrostatic shockwaves they produce. They're quite nasty and the 5.56 like someone said bounces around. They might not LOOK as nasty but they're going to do more damage. Especially if you use THV rounds a 5.56 NATO THV round would down a orc easy.

My bad, I havent had much interaction with Eldar.

Either way my work day is over so I'm going to head to a FLGS and start working on some Flames of War stuff. So later guys.

Frazzled wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:One battle axe vs one bullet... the bullet needs only miss once to be rendered inconsequential. We can go into all the reason a bullet that optimized hitting an unarmored target is better, but against armor it would knock the guy down and he'd get back up. In 40k every time you roll a hit but fail to wound thats exactly whats happend. Depending on armor and the bullet the armor may still be good or rendered useless. In a close combat fight an axe would shatter a modern balistic plate, much like a powersword through a guardsmen.

From a lethality stand point, axes have more mass and more contact area, in an engagement causing a larger volume of superficial wounds, to armored areas: blunt force trauma and broken bones and unarmored: disemboweling and loss of limb.

1. Of course my real point was that a bullet will penetrate better than an axe, but going with this topic:

2. I have a bullet and the good guy ("GG") has an axe. I shoot GG from 600 meters away. I miss. GG charges

I run away laughing, or

I wait.
I wait some more.
I make breakfast.
drink some coffee.
ponder the ultimate greatness that is the Emperor's wisdom.
I reload.
I shoot the good guy.

I loled I think you win this thread. But back in the old old days when reloading DID take forever that charge MIGHT have had a chance of doing smething..... untill we discovered the volley.


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Catyrpelius wrote:The bullet is deflected by the GG armor and he chops your head off with his axe. He then feasts on Roast Weiner dog.

Should have carried a bigger gun, got what he deserved.

Catyrpelius wrote:My bad, I havent had much interaction with Eldar.

Either way my work day is over so I'm going to head to a FLGS and start working on some Flames of War stuff. So later guys.

Party on, its EPIC for me later.

Frazzled wrote:

Catyrpelius wrote:A Rocket Powered Power Point Stick would be to powerful and break the game.

A Sword or an Axe has more Kinetic energy then a bullet.

Do you have stats on the foot pounds of a sword or axe? Lets then compare that to a .308 round (7.62 NATO for you Eurodudes). That would be interesting. The intranets are showing all over the place for a sword from 70 to 2000 (what the?) need to investigate more.

I'll do it tonight but HTH weapons can vary greatly like that. You have to remember though a bullet is very tiny and the PRESSURE which is the important part of penetration is only dependant on the energy DENSITY or basically the pressure.


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Catyrpelius wrote:

Frazzled wrote:Well thats the best possible scenario for him. Otherwise we're talking something much more interesting, like my guy calling artillery on the fool running at him with a pointy stick, or having a gun with a whole lot of bullets, after all even in the far future mankind has evolved beyond...flintlocks.

Yupp, now some PDF's fight with Laslocks.

Praetorian guard you bolt action lasguns, anythings possible. Yeah, i gak you not, bolt action lasguns. But the few that I have are REALLY REALLY old.

Melissa: Modern body armour incorporates kevlar plating over vital areas. No knife is getting through that. And 600m is the effective range for a section of infantry soldiers. 300-400m as individuals.

There is a reason why we don`t use swords and lances anymore. You just don't win against people with guns.

Crantor wrote:Melissa: Modern body armour incorporates kevlar plating over vital areas. No knife is getting through that. And 600m is the effective range for a section of infantry soldiers. 300-400m as individuals.

There is a reason why we don`t use swords and lances anymore. You just don't win against people with guns.

Or even people who are half decent with bows.

Crantor wrote:Melissa: Modern body armour incorporates kevlar plating over vital areas. No knife is getting through that. And 600m is the effective range for a section of infantry soldiers. 300-400m as individuals.

There is a reason why we don`t use swords and lances anymore. You just don't win against people with guns.

Unfortunately, kevlar is next to useless against knives. Bullets are stopped by the many intereweaving kevlar fibers dispersing the energy of the bullet over a wide enough area that the bullet is stopped. However, a knife simply cuts through those fibers and goes straight in. That's why they make both bullet proof, and knife proof vests. Different ways of stopping different attacks.

Crantor wrote:Melissa: Modern body armour incorporates kevlar plating over vital areas. No knife is getting through that. And 600m is the effective range for a section of infantry soldiers. 300-400m as individuals.

There is a reason why we don`t use swords and lances anymore. You just don't win against people with guns.

unfortunately as someone else said, kevlar is defeated by the humble knife (good knives but still knives) 100 something pounds going into a thrust at the tip of a knife just cuts right though the stuff. The problem is actually getting into knife range. Dragon skin however stops both. But it's only good as a civilian/police vest. if it ever hits 150 Degrees F it permanently fails.

You have a point there....get it..

Of course if blades were still and issue we'd go to hard plate ceramics, or even high tech mail from advanced materials. That would be kind of cool...

Frazzled wrote:You have a point there....get it..

Of course if blades were still and issue we'd go to hard plate ceramics, or even high tech mail from advanced materials. That would be kind of cool...

Then RPPPS (Rocket Propelled Powered Pointy Sticks) would become the standard issue infantry weapon.

ChrisWWII wrote:

Frazzled wrote:You have a point there....get it..

Of course if blades were still and issue we'd go to hard plate ceramics, or even high tech mail from advanced materials. That would be kind of cool...

Then RPPPS (Rocket Propelled Powered Pointy Sticks) would become the standard issue infantry weapon.

Untill we had half a brain and start to put shaped charges on those rockets instead of pointy sticks.

HEAP rockets basically are pointy sticks with explosives in them.

Don't forget that even if the armor stops the bullet it can still take you out. suffering internal damage from the round as its like having someone hit you in the stomach or chest with a baseball bat doesn't mean you will die as if the round hit you through a shirt but try getting back on your feet and charging forward after taking an impact that knocks you to the ground.

armor is made for saving your life if you get hit not make you immune to bullets because thats not possible.
now don't get me wrong I am sure with dragon skin you can take a few 9mm rounds and keep going but try taking an AK round and not get your breath knocked out. and that would be from a 1-3 round burst into you maybe even more.

I have heard of stories of close combat fights in Iraq where a US soldier actually had to stab a guy to death. it was an interview done by the cold steel knife company.
so CC still happens but its not a big priority. your training should prevent you from getting into such situations. but some of our troops have the battle tomahawk for close combat. and thats good because CC will always happen somewhere in a war.

if CC is a priority then the only way I see overcoming people shooting at you is too outnumber them by a large amount and have the morale to keep charging or simply sneak past their firing field.


anyway I don't see how a chainsword can cut through armor when the guard around it is thicker then the actual cutting blade. so you get to cut through like 2 inches maybe till the guard stops you? that means you can't cut off arms or really chop in deep.

That's just a model, it's not representative of how the weapon looks in the fluff.

If the weapon was as thin as it was in the fluff it would snap easily on the model.

Also, for most weapons it's quite necessary to have the center of the blade, length-wise, to be thicker than the edges... it just isn't necessarily to a huge degree.

Melissia wrote:HEAP rockets basically are pointy sticks with explosives in them.

HEAP? Okay that's a new one to me.

*wikipedias HEAP*

oh those things, Yeah pointy sticks with explosives in them is about right. Wikipedia is wrong though, it says they are the standard tank round IIRC the standard is still APFSDS... and that they have higher first kill ratios than HEAT. But the only examples I can find are of naval vessel rounds. I can see them being more deadly in naval warfare than HEAT though.

You really don't need armor penetration in Naval Warfare anymore. If you hit a ship, chances are you're going to cripple it with modern ASMs....the problem is: a) finding the enemy b) getting close enough to fire and c) beating enemy AM systems.

Armor penetration isn't even a consideration. Modern anti-ship missiles have gone clean through the hulls of modern warships with nothing more than kinetic energy, and a missile like shape to help them. Gunfire isn't even a consideration. NOBODY is going to be getting close enough to have gun duels.

Melissia wrote:That's just a model, it's not representative of how the weapon looks in the fluff.

If the weapon was as thin as it was in the fluff it would snap easily on the model.

Also, for most weapons it's quite necessary to have the center of the blade, length-wise, to be thicker than the edges... it just isn't necessarily to a huge degree.

thats correct in the sense of a normal sword it needs too be thicker in the center for support but that comes with a bevel to allow the entire blade cleave into its target.

A chainsword has a dull guard on it look at page 62 of the new space marine codex there is no way that chainsword can cut straight through armor and cleave a man in halve (well maybe in the case of a space marine with his brute strength forcing it through light armor and flesh and bone) but I can't see it slashing clean through solid space marine armor the blade can only cut so much before you have a dull guard clashing against the edges of the cut.

kinda like when you use a hand saw the guard has to move/slide so the entire blade may pass through the object for a complete cut. if the guard was unmovable you couldn't even cut a 2x4 in half


EDIT: don't get me wrong I have no doubt that a chainsword would leave a nasty wound enough to kill a man . just saying i can't see it cutting through metal/hard armor with that guard on it.

Which is overly stylized, but I don't particularly pay much attention to space marine art as representative of how things are in the universe. Especially seeing as to me Space Marines aren't really all that important in 40k to begin with (as opposed to 30k).