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Melissia wrote:Which is overly stylized, but I don't particularly pay much attention to space marine art as representative of how things are in the universe. Especially seeing as to me Space Marines aren't really all that important in 40k to begin with (as opposed to 30k).

now if only we could get models that look like the codex art, particularily in fantasy... freaking lizardmen models, army book makes them look so much cooler!

Not to mention, half of the images of Space Marines are no doubt Imperial Propaganda trying to make them look cool and awesome so the citizens remained utterly terrified of the Angels of Death coming to them if they even think about rebelling.

gendoikari87 wrote:

Crantor wrote:Melissa: Modern body armour incorporates kevlar plating over vital areas. No knife is getting through that. And 600m is the effective range for a section of infantry soldiers. 300-400m as individuals.

There is a reason why we don`t use swords and lances anymore. You just don't win against people with guns.

unfortunately as someone else said, kevlar is defeated by the humble knife (good knives but still knives) 100 something pounds going into a thrust at the tip of a knife just cuts right though the stuff. The problem is actually getting into knife range. Dragon skin however stops both. But it's only good as a civilian/police vest. if it ever hits 150 Degrees F it permanently fails.

Just to add to that... do you know what they use to cut kevlar when they make things out of it? Scissors. A knife is better than that.

Range will always be an advantage to a rifle over an axe. Just realize even in WWI soldiers were given axes and swords for the inevitable melee you end up in when you climb into someone elses trench. The point isn't so much that gun beats axe as it is gun and axe beat just gun (given the right circumstance). The "right circumstance" almost never happens because of the consistent and persistent levels of fire support modern infantry are provided. The modern tactic being suppress and allow fire support to kill.

40k can justify the right circumstances with its setting where the quality of persistent support isn't consistent; where instead of relying on accurate fire support to drive an enemy out or wipe them out infantry are more often forced into such close quarter fighting as to be hand to hand.

I dont know if any one menton this before, In fluff and in a codex, they mention what a bolter fires a .75 cal( yes larger then a 50cal) caseless projectile. Why do they show shell casing ejecting for effect... why is there a ejection port( possile for clearing a jam..) but modern caseless rounds would be just pushed out of the way by the following round..(like in the weapon system of steel rain).

ChrisWWII wrote:Not to mention, half of the images of Space Marines are no doubt Imperial Propaganda trying to make them look cool and awesome so the citizens remained utterly terrified of the Angels of Death coming to them if they even think about rebelling.

lol I once saw a proportion demonstration of what a human would look like inside the armor of a space marine based on the size of the head, the legs barely extended past the knee joint.

Range will always be an advantage to a rifle over an axe. Just realize even in WWI soldiers were given axes and swords

I thought it was trench knives they were given... you know... to get past the trench coats... no pun there trench coats really do get their name from the WWI attire.


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StarGate wrote:I dont know if any one menton this before, In fluff and in a codex, they mention what a bolter fires a .75 cal( yes larger then a 50cal) caseless projectile. Why do they show shell casing ejecting for effect... why is there a ejection port( possile for clearing a jam..) but modern caseless rounds would be just pushed out of the way by the following round..(like in the weapon system of steel rain).

Where in gods green fluff does it say that!? That's what an autogun is supposed to be.

How does the "fluff" describe a chainsword then? and even if that guard is half as thick it still won't work. how can something thicker then a saw edge cut and follow through at all?

Considering Ciaphas Cain used his chainsword to bisect Orks in his third book,I'd say it is certainly capable of bisecting a human as well.

As for bolters... they are not caseless. Spent shell casings from bolters are considered good luck charms even, especially Astartes or Sororitas bolter shell casings.

Melissia wrote:Considering Ciaphas Cain used his chainsword to bisect Orks in his third book,I'd say it is certainly capable of bisecting a human as well.

As for bolters... they are not caseless. Spent shell casings from bolters are considered good luck charms even, especially Astartes or Sororitas bolter shell casings.

Yeah a few Guardsmen actually keep some as tokens thinking that the emperor's Angels of Death will sense one of their shells go into battle and will come to aid. Well that was a reference to a really bad 40k writing.

Melissia wrote:Considering Ciaphas Cain used his chainsword to bisect Orks in his third book,I'd say it is certainly capable of bisecting a human as well.

As for bolters... they are not caseless. Spent shell casings from bolters are considered good luck charms even, especially Astartes or Sororitas bolter shell casings.

like I said given enough strength I am sure is can be FORCED through something like light armor, flesh, bone etc if. but not space marine armor not something so solid.
a dull edge would literally have to be forced through solid armor. thats like grabbing a piece of metal as thick as dvd case with no edge and forcing it through space marine armor how the heck would that work?

hell take a saw and glue something as thin as a ruler on each side and try to cut through metal with it without those rulers stopping you. it doesn't make sense to me lol

Ciaphas Cain is no stronger than the average soldier (skilled maybe, but stronger? no). He bisected an Ork with ease.

Think about it this way: maybe it doesn't make sense because we don't know everything about it and so we can't explain why it works.

Its a chainsaw you can swing like a sword...what about that cleaving anything save for a Carnifex in half doesn't make sense?


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Its a chainsaw you can swing like a sword...what about that cleaving anything save for a Carnifex in half doesn't make sense?

I don't even understand how you guys can't even grasp the concept haha how can a skinny blade cut a grove much thicker than itself allowing the bulk on the chainsword frame too pass through.

I am literally laughing right now xD

let me give this one more try with an example.

a chainsaw can cut a tree in half yes? now put a guard on the back end of that chainsaw and and tell me how the hell you would cut that tree in half with that guard on it. even if the guard is half an inch thick that chainsaw will only cut UP TO the guard not completely through

if this doesn't work I am going to draw a disgusting microsoft paint picture for you guys.

No, we get what you're saying completely. There is a guard on top of a chainsword, which SHOULD make it impossible for the chainsword to go up to the guard, but no further. However, Melissia was pointing out that there are fluff examples where chainswords cleanly go through things that you say they shouldn't, and the fluff overpowers what you say should happen, and we have to work with what happened.

That means, that there is obviously SOMETHING that makes it possible for chainswords to slice through things even though the guard (to our eyes) makes it impossible. We just don't have enough information to know what that thing is. THink about it this way. If you were standing in a room and you watched a man appear out of a swirling portal and walk straight past you, would you assume that since you can't figure out the mechanism for how the guy did that, it's obviously physically impossible, or would you assume that there was some kind of mechanism that made the impossible possible that you just don't know about?

We get what you're saying. You're just wrong.

Melissia wrote:As for bolters... they are not caseless. Spent shell casings from bolters are considered good luck charms even, especially Astartes or Sororitas bolter shell casings.

Bolter shells are described as "caseless," even though other fluff and artistic depictions show them to have casing. It is a simple fluff contradiction

There are a couple trains of thought we can take:
A) There are a variety of Bolter shells, which we know there are, and some special rounds are caseless while the standard round is not.
and/or
B) GW has no idea what they're saying actually means.

As an example of the sort of thing I mean: a stalker silenced shell is the sort of bolter shell that might be a caseless bolter shell... no "bang" just a quieter rocket... all rocket equalling a longer range.

GamzaTheChaos wrote:How does the "fluff" describe a chainsword then? and even if that guard is half as thick it still won't work. how can something thicker then a saw edge cut and follow through at all?

Soft targets all you need to do is make that initial incision which the chain blade does very well. and then then pushing the blade deeper separates it. It's by no means an easy cut with the gaurd like that but it can be done without TOO much force.

hard targets like a marine on the other hand it'd stop like you say, but the GW rule of cool says it keeps on going, and 40k physics follows the rule of cool.


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ChrisWWII wrote:No, we get what you're saying completely. There is a guard on top of a chainsword, which SHOULD make it impossible for the chainsword to go up to the guard, but no further. However, Melissia was pointing out that there are fluff examples where chainswords cleanly go through things that you say they shouldn't, and the fluff overpowers what you say should happen, and we have to work with what happened.

That means, that there is obviously SOMETHING that makes it possible for chainswords to slice through things even though the guard (to our eyes) makes it impossible. We just don't have enough information to know what that thing is. THink about it this way. If you were standing in a room and you watched a man appear out of a swirling portal and walk straight past you, would you assume that since you can't figure out the mechanism for how the guy did that, it's obviously physically impossible, or would you assume that there was some kind of mechanism that made the impossible possible that you just don't know about?

We get what you're saying. You're just wrong.

I don't know about you but I'd assume I was going insane.

B) GW has no idea what they're saying actually means.

This ^

flesh sure! because it has some give it can stretch in can tear. but solid armor? and no just because fluff states it doesn't mean I am instantly wrong we aren't talking about some crazy thing like porting through walls etc.

the ONLY way its possible for it to cut completely though a solid object is for it to simply not be there! a chainsword is not ultra advanced technology
we can make one with todays limits. its not filled with powers of the warp it doesn't have any crazy design we can't replicate except MAYBE what powers it.
they don't have some tricky design that allows it to do the otherwise impossible.

I am simply saying its a problem they never seen. if it was possible I am sure all chainsaws would have a fixed guard. but no none of them do because its simply impossible and it defeats the whole purpose of making a complete cut.


its not about something complicated its about common sense that its simply not possible by the means they apply it.


soooooooooo =P

Melissia wrote:HEAP rockets basically are pointy sticks with explosives in them.

Indeed, copperheads are pretty much melta weapons.

aka_mythos wrote:Bolter shells are described as "caseless,"

Cite your source, as I have not seen an official reference to this.

All fluff from the Inquisitor / Dark Heresy / Rogue Trader / Deathwatch roleplays say otherwise, by the way, and those are pretty damned recent-- bolt weapons aren't caseless.

GamzaTheChaos wrote:I don't even understand how you guys can't even grasp the concept haha how can a skinny blade cut a grove much thicker than itself allowing the bulk on the chainsword frame too pass through.

I am literally laughing right now xD

let me give this one more try with an example.

a chainsaw can cut a tree in half yes? now put a guard on the back end of that chainsaw and and tell me how the hell you would cut that tree in half with that guard on it. even if the guard is half an inch thick that chainsaw will only cut UP TO the guard not completely through

if this doesn't work I am going to draw a disgusting microsoft paint picture for you guys.

You're right. As noted, chainswords are stupid.

Half an inch is pretty damn thick, I was actually thinking the design of the guard is different from what is depicted, in order to allow for it to cut through.

Frazzled wrote:

GamzaTheChaos wrote:I don't even understand how you guys can't even grasp the concept haha how can a skinny blade cut a grove much thicker than itself allowing the bulk on the chainsword frame too pass through.

I am literally laughing right now xD

let me give this one more try with an example.

a chainsaw can cut a tree in half yes? now put a guard on the back end of that chainsaw and and tell me how the hell you would cut that tree in half with that guard on it. even if the guard is half an inch thick that chainsaw will only cut UP TO the guard not completely through

if this doesn't work I am going to draw a disgusting microsoft paint picture for you guys.

You're right. As noted, chainswords are stupid.

No Chainswords are pretty damn awsome. The only way it gets any better is if you attach a gun to the chainsword...Wait...Thats Gears of War.

In contrast, rocket propelled chainsaws are epic cool.

Edit: I always did have a soft spot in my heart for Khornae chainaxes.

You could always go all out and build a rocket propelled chainsaw cannon.

aka_mythos wrote:

gendoikari87 wrote:

Crantor wrote:Melissa: Modern body armour incorporates kevlar plating over vital areas. No knife is getting through that. And 600m is the effective range for a section of infantry soldiers. 300-400m as individuals.

There is a reason why we don`t use swords and lances anymore. You just don't win against people with guns.

unfortunately as someone else said, kevlar is defeated by the humble knife (good knives but still knives) 100 something pounds going into a thrust at the tip of a knife just cuts right though the stuff. The problem is actually getting into knife range. Dragon skin however stops both. But it's only good as a civilian/police vest. if it ever hits 150 Degrees F it permanently fails.

Just to add to that... do you know what they use to cut kevlar when they make things out of it? Scissors. A knife is better than that.

Range will always be an advantage to a rifle over an axe. Just realize even in WWI soldiers were given axes and swords for the inevitable melee you end up in when you climb into someone elses trench. The point isn't so much that gun beats axe as it is gun and axe beat just gun (given the right circumstance). The "right circumstance" almost never happens because of the consistent and persistent levels of fire support modern infantry are provided. The modern tactic being suppress and allow fire support to kill.

40k can justify the right circumstances with its setting where the quality of persistent support isn't consistent; where instead of relying on accurate fire support to drive an enemy out or wipe them out infantry are more often forced into such close quarter fighting as to be hand to hand.

My mistake. I meant to say Ceramic plating is incorporated into modern body armour. Cisors and knives are not getting through that. Just a note. We still carry bayonets or combat knives. But they are last resort tools. we don`t carry swords and we do not carry chainsaws either.

There is no modern equivalent to those weapons.

Back to the subject at hand.

My guess is the bolter, looking at it from a scale perspective looks more like a 20-40mm barrel. The magazines on the weapons look like they could hold 10-12 rounds max.

A bolter is .75 cal, its a knowen fact, regardless of how it looks on the model.

GamzaTheChaos wrote:flesh sure! because it has some give it can stretch in can tear. but solid armor? and no just because fluff states it doesn't mean I am instantly wrong we aren't talking about some crazy thing like porting through walls etc.

the ONLY way its possible for it to cut completely though a solid object is for it to simply not be there! a chainsword is not ultra advanced technology
we can make one with todays limits. its not filled with powers of the warp it doesn't have any crazy design we can't replicate except MAYBE what powers it.
they don't have some tricky design that allows it to do the otherwise impossible.

I am simply saying its a problem they never seen. if it was possible I am sure all chainsaws would have a fixed guard. but no none of them do because its simply impossible and it defeats the whole purpose of making a complete cut.


its not about something complicated its about common sense that its simply not possible by the means they apply it.


soooooooooo =P

Problem is chainswords obey the laws of cool not physics and we know nothing about how the laws of cool work except that they're cool.


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we don`t carry swords and we do not carry chainsaws either.

yeah we do, army corp of engineers. they just don't swing them at the enemy they swing them at trees to get them out of the way.

Crantor wrote:My mistake. I meant to say Ceramic plating is incorporated into modern body armour. Cisors and knives are not getting through that...

My guess is the bolter, looking at it from a scale perspective looks more like a 20-40mm barrel. The magazines on the weapons look like they could hold 10-12 rounds max.

You can break the ceramic plate in body armor by dropping it the wrong way. Its designed to block something that is effectively "poking" the wearer at high speeds. You place a more broadly applied force to it and it will crack and shatter. Its for this reason the these vests are composed of layers of different materials, but those other layers that protect it from when a soldier drops to his chest will not protect it from a sharp broad hard strike.

Bolters are suppose to be .75cal which is 19mm... very close to a 12ga shot gun shell (so an AA12 is about the package size), though the shell could be more elongated. The miniature Bolters only show a portion of the magazine exposed the section it goes into is a magazine catch guide which would likely conceal another 20% of the magazine. In real life it would be similar to this: Next you have to consider that the bolters are scaled to a space marine and not to an average human... the magazine would be 3-4" wide... heroic scale proportions aside the magazine is wide enough to be minimally double stacked possibly more, some sort of futuristic "coffin" style tripple stacked magazine. So instead of being 14 round magazines it could be 30-45 round magazine.

The weight would be killer and for the average human. You're probably right with 12 rounds, but that would be for an average person, these are space marines.


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gendoikari87 wrote:
Problem is chainswords obey the laws of cool not physics and we know nothing about how the laws of cool work except that they're cool.

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we don`t carry swords and we do not carry chainsaws either.

yeah we do, army corp of engineers. they just don't swing them at the enemy they swing them at trees to get them out of the way.

I imagine, despite the modern chainsaw's effectiveness, that chained weapons in the 40k universe are more so. They're probably faster and sharper.

I`ve dropped my plates alot, even thrown them around. Never broke them. They don`t break as easily as you think. The newer gen versions are designed to take several impacts before shaterring. Like I said, a knife isn`t going to go through a plate. Place it on a anvil and smash it with a hammer several times maybe.

Swords have three functions. Crushing, cutting, stabbing or a combo of the three. A samurai sword can cut through three pigs but simple chainmail will stop its cutting power.

You might be to smash the plates with a very big sword taking a very big swing but I doubt you`ll get a kill with the first strike. Aim for the head, you`ll get better results.

As for the ammo, let`s say it would be comparable to something like a shotgun shell, maybe similar to Frag-12 HE-AP ammo. Not too sure on the range, but the explosive charge is armed after only 3m. Closest thing I could find.

Assuming a Space marine had a 24-30 round magazine, he'd also be carrying anywhere from 10-20 of those bad boys on his person. Looks silly on a model but let`s say his backpack has some.

which brings another question for us physicists and engineers out there pretaining to the back pack. Assault marines how do they stay stable the thrust is so far off from the center of mass.

Magic....

Seriously though, there isnt a point of referenece for that type of technology. The jet packs we currently have are barely enough to support themselves and a human.

It could be that the bullk of the armor helps to counteract the thrust from the pack.