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halonachos wrote:

Ketara wrote:
How is it a great victory? You caught a guy with a beard who doesn't do much more than send out offensive videos these days. Sure, he's mass murderer, but would you describe every arrested chainsaw wielding maniac a great victory?

I'm pretty sure every time we caught a member of the IRA, we wouldn't label it a 'great victory'.

I suppose what I'm saying is that the phrase has far too many jingoistic connotations for me.

Its a great victory for us because it happened when a lot of us were alive and it was the main reason why we invaded Afghanistan, did you invade Ireland based on the attacks of the IRA? No, but we invaded an entire country to get the guy so getting him is kind of a big deal.

Comparing the IRA and Britains response can't be compared to Bin Laden and America's response. Eat your heart out Shuma.

I suppose. Ours was somewhat more proportionate and restrained.....then again, this is of course presupposing you invaded Iraq to get him, and that all that oil was just an welcome coincidence.

So the conclusion is that because America invaded a country and slaughtered thousands to get one man, its clearly reason for a street party!
(no, I don't believe that, but that's basically what halo just said...)

Ketara wrote:this is of course presupposing you invaded Iraq to get him, and that all that oil was just an welcome coincidence.

It wasn't?

But we won. Bush said so *shakes fist in denial*

Wow, you really are bitter Ketara.

Slaughtered? That's kind of harsh and shows some latent anger at this. You're bitter and that's all there is.

Besides, Bin Laden was in charge of the Taliban when 9/11 occured and took responsibility for the attack. The Taliban were the ruling government of Afghanistan at the time, put two and two together and we have a good reason to invade. Bin Laden evaded us for 10 years and we finally got him, its a big thing.

halonachos wrote:Wow, you really are bitter Ketara.

Slaughtered? That's kind of harsh and shows some latent anger at this. You're bitter and that's all there is.

Besides, Bin Laden was in charge of the Taliban when 9/11 occured and took responsibility for the attack. The Taliban were the ruling government of Afghanistan at the time, put two and two together and we have a good reason to invade. Bin Laden evaded us for 10 years and we finally got him, its a big thing.

QFT!!!

Good news indeed. Osama got all the justice he deserved for a man who dedicated his life to murdering as many civilians as possible, all to try and reshape the world to fit his crazy vision for it.

His death wont change anything though its merely symbolic, plenty more muppets out there that think killing you on your way to work will make the world a better place for them and there fellow nutters.

halonachos wrote:Wow, you really are bitter Ketara.

Slaughtered? That's kind of harsh and shows some latent anger at this. You're bitter and that's all there is.

Besides, Bin Laden was in charge of the Taliban when 9/11 occured and took responsibility for the attack. The Taliban were the ruling government of Afghanistan at the time, put two and two together and we have a good reason to invade. Bin Laden evaded us for 10 years and we finally got him, its a big thing.

Bitter?

You evil man, you just made me burst out laughing quite loudly in a library full of people working silently on their dissertations.

I'm sorry, but you might want to try playing the amateur psychologist elsewhere. Considering I had family killed by Saddam Hussein and his missiles in Israel, I'm hardly the sort of person to have....'latent anger' at his removal.

No, I just find it highly amusing when people like you attempt to portray American expansionism and financial colonialism as some sort of justified, humane thing.

Note that I have no objection to either of those things, they're the way the world works, I just find it funny when people blatantly try and dress it up to look pretty.

And Bin Laden was in charge of the Al Quaeda AND the Taliban? My word. Busy fellow. I must have missed him being elected the President of Afghanistan. Must have happened whilst I was in the corner eating lemons and haribo sour, whilst cursing the Western infidel dogs who dared to imprison the great Bin Laden! You know, being 'bitter' and all.

Get over yourself Ketara, what kind of economic opportunity does Afghanistan present to us? Its a desert without oil, it has nothing we want except for Bin Laden but now that he's gone they just lost part of their major export.

Iraq was a different animal, and if we were there for economic reasons only, then why does China own most of the rights to Iraqi oil fields?

.....this is so off topic now, I'm not even going to bother.

I'll call it a day there in this thread gents. I concede to halo that America is magnanimous nation with nothing but goodwill and benevolent Uncle Sams apple pie for the Middle East, which they distribute in between righting wrongs, saving kittens up trees, and arresting evil bank robbers in black and white carrying bags marked 'Swag'.

TIME wrote:
Do oil and Islam mix? Several prominent Iraqi exiles have tentatively endorsed a plan from the U.S. designed to give Iraq's vast oil reserves to "the Iraqi people." The plan defines oil as a government asset, but recommends sharing production with foreign oil companies in exchange for development costs. Now many scholars of Islamic law (Shari'a) say the U.S. plan inadvertently (or perhaps cunningly) delivers a more "Islamic" arrangement than the one followed in supposedly Islamic Saudi Arabia.

Where the U.S. plan intends to give ownership to a democratically elected government, the Saudi royal family collects all revenue and administers it on behalf of the kingdom. Some Islamic critics, following edicts that say buried treasures, like gold and salt, should be shared among the people, claim the Saudi royal family has grabbed too much oil booty for itself. Critics of the U.S. plan, however, say the proposed production-sharing don't meet Shari'a edicts requiring compensation to be defined before work is carried out.

Yeah, get off your high horse.

BBC wrote: joint venture between the UK's Shell and Malaysia's Petronas oil companies has won the right to develop Iraq's giant Majnoon oil field.

Ketara wrote:
So the conclusion is that because America invaded a country and slaughtered thousands to get one man, its clearly reason for a street party!
(no, I don't believe that, but that's basically what halo just said...)

Wow. Talk about changing the fact to fit your world view. One of my best friends just got back from his second tour in Afghanistan where he spent his time building roads and schools, bringing power to towns, and helping civilians to become self-reliant and secure. Lighten up, life's better when you're not a hater.

Nasakenai wrote:

Ketara wrote:
So the conclusion is that because America invaded a country and slaughtered thousands to get one man, its clearly reason for a street party!
(no, I don't believe that, but that's basically what halo just said...)

Wow. Talk about changing the fact to fit your world view. One of my best friends just got back from his second tour in Afghanistan where he spent his time building roads and schools, bringing power to towns, and helping civilians to become self-reliant and secure. Lighten up, life's better when you're not a hater.

I had a friend who came back from Iraq and gave away one of his hats, he was wearing the hat when an IED went off and he didn't want the memories anymore. One of my other friends who's looking at the marine corp had wanted one of those hats from before so the friend from Iraq gave it to him. The inside of the hat is lighter than the outside thanks to blood being on it.

It's one of those 'Infidel' hats which are hard to get unless you're in the military.

Ketara wrote:
I'll call it a day there in this thread gents. I concede to halo that America is magnanimous nation with nothing but goodwill and benevolent Uncle Sams apple pie for the Middle East, which they distribute in between righting wrongs, saving kittens up trees, and arresting evil bank robbers in black and white carrying bags marked 'Swag'.

I'm glad we call all agree on that.

Phototoxin wrote:Is he dead - magically fast dna tests, burial at sea (so we cannot see the corpse for ourselves)

Information from gunantanemo detainees (thus justifying it in the first instance)

Then it takes place in pakistan without their knowledge or consent.. sounds like war moves to me..

Sounds like a whole load of smoke and mirrors to me at a time when obama needs voters back on his side, bush style.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Nasakenai wrote:

Ketara wrote:
So the conclusion is that because America invaded a country and slaughtered thousands to get one man, its clearly reason for a street party!
(no, I don't believe that, but that's basically what halo just said...)

Wow. Talk about changing the fact to fit your world view. One of my best friends just got back from his second tour in Afghanistan where he spent his time building roads and schools, bringing power to towns, and helping civilians to become self-reliant and secure. Lighten up, life's better when you're not a hater.

He is not kidding, look at the Iraq initial bombings and their targets...

happydude wrote:Sounds like a whole load of smoke and mirrors to me at a time when obama needs voters back on his side, bush style.

So why didn't Bush do it?

Ketara wrote:

Albatross wrote:

Ketara wrote:Why? It ain't got nothing to do with us.

September 11th was the worst terror attack in British history too, in terms of Britons killed in the atrocity.

Even if this is the case (the figure of 66 people is quoted above), the incidental killing of 66 British citizens in a terrorist attack on another regime is no basis for the British forces to be assassinating leaders of that terrorist attack in another country, risking war, life and limb.

I respectfully disagree. I think that is the ideal basis for assassinating terrorist leaders - second only, of course, to the perpetrators of attacks that take place on our own soil.

That said, it doesn't matter who 'got' him, just that he was 'got'. I must say, I'm finding all the American chest-beating a little distasteful and crass. I would have been nice if they could have dealt with this news by showing quiet dignity and paying sombre tribute to those who perished on that awful day, but perhaps I'm expecting them to be British, when in fact they are American.

Oh well, it's still good news. Especially for Obama.

halonachos wrote:Get over yourself Ketara, what kind of economic opportunity does Afghanistan present to us? Its a desert without oil, it has nothing we want except for Bin Laden but now that he's gone they just lost part of their major export.

I... .

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/14/world/asia/14minerals.html
Of course these deposits were discovered years after the invasion. Very lucky!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trans-Afghanistan_Pipeline
Afghanistan's strategic position on the overland trade routes across Asia make it the obvious place to put important transportation assets.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/1984459.stm
A fact that was obvious at least 16 years ago.

I'm not saying any of this has anything to do with the invasion. It makes you wonder, though.

Albatross wrote:That said, it doesn't matter who 'got' him, just that he was 'got'. I must say, I'm finding all the American chest-beating a little distasteful and crass. I would have been nice if they could have dealt with this news by showing quiet dignity and paying sombre tribute to those who perished on that awful day, but perhaps I'm expecting them to be British, when in fact they are American.

Come again?

Albatross wrote:I must say, I'm finding all the American chest-beating a little distasteful and crass.

A good deal of it is justified...to an extent. Remember what Al Qaeda did to America: it fundamentally changed our political and foreign stance with the world (I would argue that America has lost significant prestige since 9/11 due to the attacks and our own actions; however that is another debate yet again), it altered the mentality of our society with regards to saftey and security, and for those personally affected, it meant the loss of friends and loved ones for reasons to which almost all of them didn't deserve to die.

For this event, I think people are interpreting the death of Osama Bin Laden as a victory for America that is far more significant than anything else this nation has experienced in quite some time. Not many other events to this generation stand out. We don't have a Victory in Europe day or the 1980 Miracle On Ice victory over the Soviets. This could be the watershed event that defines what many will talk about positively years down the road.

The "victory" is an emotional one for many.

That's enough of that.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/1984459.stm wrote:Mr Razim said US energy company Unocal was the "lead company" among those that would build the pipeline, which would bring 30bn cubic meters of Turkmen gas to market annually.

Unocal - which led a consortium of companies from Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Turkmenistan, Japan and South Korea - has maintained the project is both economically and technically feasible once Afghan stability was secured.

"Unocal is not involved in any projects (including pipelines) in Afghanistan, nor do we have any plans to become involved, nor are we discussing any such projects," a spokesman told BBC News Online.

The US company formally withdrew from the consortium in 1998.

Okay, so in 1998 a US company withdrew from taking over the pipeline that was planned for 2008.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/14/world/asia/14minerals.html wrote: In 2004, American geologists, sent to Afghanistan as part of a broader reconstruction effort, stumbled across an intriguing series of old charts and data at the library of the Afghan Geological Survey in Kabul that hinted at major mineral deposits in the country. They soon learned that the data had been collected by Soviet mining experts during the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan in the 1980s, but cast aside when the Soviets withdrew in 1989.

The Soviets actually discovered the Litium deposits, but we discovered the charts. Don't say that the USSR never did anything for us.

wiki wrote:On 27 October 1997, CentGas was incorporated in formal signing ceremonies in Ashgabat, Turkmenistan by several international oil companies along with the Government of Turkmenistan. In January 1998, the Taliban, selecting CentGas over Argentinian competitor Bridas Corporation, signed an agreement that allowed the proposed project to proceed. In June 1998, Russian Gazprom relinquished its 10% stake in the project. Unocal withdrew from the consortium on 8 December 1998.

wiki wrote:The cost of the pipeline is estimated cost at US$7.6 billion. The project is to be financed by the Asian Development Bank.

That's enough of that.

A lot of this breaks down to one simple concept for some of our non-U.S. people commenting in this thread.

You don't live in this country, therefore you weren't affected by what happend on Sept. 11th.

Somehow that gives you a right to say we're wrong to have trailed down this man who through his personal financing, ideology and actions, destroyed quite a few more than just 3,000 lives on that day.

Far as i'm concerned, you can go hide in a hole somewhere, stay in your country, and spout as much as you'd like about how wrong we are.

We're celebrating something you'll hopefully never have to understand.

happydude wrote:Some things that hopefully he will one day think better of.

I did not post what I posted out of any desire to be involved in any 'America-bashing'. I have tremendous respect and admiration for our American friends, and using this occasion to talk gak on them is just as distasteful and crass as some of the behaviour I was talking about. I'm not talking gak on them, I'm saying that some of their citizens are perhaps going a little overboard with the celebrations. But hey, every country has it's mouth-breathers - Britain has plenty, and I'm sure Canada does too. In fact, I'm certain of it....

happydude wrote:A trollish imputation on the expenditures invested

I agree. It was money well spent considering the costs:

http://www.iags.org/costof911.html

spyfunk wrote:A lot of this breaks down to one simple concept for some of our non-U.S. people commenting in this thread.

You don't live in this country, therefore you weren't affected by what happend on Sept. 11th.

Somehow that gives you a right to say we're wrong to have trailed down this man who through his personal financing, ideology and actions, destroyed quite a few more than just 3,000 lives on that day.

Far as i'm concerned, you can go hide in a hole somewhere, stay in your country, and spout as much as you'd like about how wrong we are.

We're celebrating something you'll hopefully never have to understand.

How about the canadians and other foreign persons who died? the entire world was affected however thank you for finally displaying the selfish elitist attitude that the world hates your country for. And believe me i will stay up here,away from idiotic comments and attitudes like yours..

happydude wrote:Exactly what I expected. Fyi has anyone seen Osamas body? no huh...

First of all, apostrophes are your friends. Secondly, I imagine the people that tested his DNA probably saw the body.

happydude wrote:They buried him rather quickly... at sea no doubt, which would leave nothing to look for I guess...

I don't think you're reading those stories very closely.

happydude wrote:oh and they place they found him in burnt down too huh...

He was killed in a rocket attack. Does that really not make sense to you?

happydude wrote:But yeah he is totally dead because cnn said so.

It's not just CNN.

They buried him at sea because they couldn't keep his body more than 24 hours.

Not buried on land so the Nut cases wouldn't have a place to enshrine their Martyr. Can't visit his resting place out in the middle of the Ocean you know.

Enough.

Albatross wrote:not talking gak on them, I'm saying that some of their citizens are perhaps going a little overboard with the celebration

Understood.

Personally, I went to our local 9/11 memorial here in Calverton (not to far from our Grumman memorial where the F-14 Tomcat was tested and produced), saluted our flag, then went hope to bask in the celebration of others on TV while having a spot of wine.

While criticism of and observations on foreign policy are not necessarily inappropriate, blanket bashing or denigration of any country or religion is totally inappropriate.

Thread reopened because I have great faith in MOST of your ability to remain polite and civil with one another.

Please prove me right. Thanks.