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rigeld2 wrote:FNP is not a save and does not prevent unsaved wounds, it just ignores the unsaved wound.

So thank you for agreeing that the model still suffered the unsaved wound, which would trigger Hexrifles, pinning, and Entropic Strike.

Unless you mean that Feel no pain doesn't prevent unsaved wounds because it makes unsaved wounds saved somehow.

Norsehawk wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:FNP is not a save and does not prevent unsaved wounds, it just ignores the unsaved wound.

So thank you for agreeing that the model still suffered the unsaved wound, which would trigger Hexrifles, pinning, and Entropic Strike.

Unless you mean that Feel no pain doesn't prevent unsaved wounds because it makes unsaved wounds saved somehow.

No - you don't suffer an unsaved wound. Doing so would mean the model is removed, and make FNP useless. You ignore the unsaved wound. Applying ES/Hexrfile means you are explicitly not ignoring the wound.

rigeld2 wrote:FNP is not a save and does not prevent unsaved wounds, it just ignores the unsaved wound.

No, it ignores the injury.

There are two potential definitions of "injury". One is the dictionary definition, which rarely has any real meaning as far as rules go - and certainly doesn't make sense here, and the other, context based, definition is the unsaved wound. The latter is more relevant.

Steelmage99 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:FNP is not a save and does not prevent unsaved wounds, it just ignores the unsaved wound.

No, it ignores the injury.

which is == unsaved wound, as context tells us. Otherwise FNP literally does nothing.
So is your position that FNP does nothing?

Copper - you are deciding that two items which happen imediately happen at different times. Hilarious argument.

The rules have been given time and time again, unlike you.

No, I am saying they get triggered together because they both activate on unsaved wounds. What is hillarious about that?
But I think it was you that backed up this whole "1 or more wounds" mess, that made FNP look like it triggered before ES. Now that was hillarious indeed...

No, you are saying that ES occurs before RC, when it happens at the EXACT same time.

ANd FNP occurs before RC, so as ES and RC occur at the EXACT same time, FNP HAS to occur before both.

You have absolutely no argument, NONE whatsoever, that disproves this.

copper.talos wrote:No, I am saying they get triggered together because they both activate on unsaved wounds. What is hillarious about that?

Yes, ES and RC happen at the same time and are triggered together.
FNP happens before both.

Arbitrary conclusions... Not a single word in the BRB, codex or FAQ can back this up.
Show the wording that makes clear that ES is different to any other abilities that trigger on unsaved wounds, so it gets "delayed activation". What? You can't find none? I thought so too..

what is funny about that is that you have two things that happen Immediately. those being remove casualties, and Entropic Strike.

These two thing have to happen simultaneously, because they are worded the same.

ES, Necron Codex, page 29, second paragraph, first sentence: "any model that suffers one or more unsaved wounds from a weapon or model with this special rule immediately loses its armour save"

Remove casualties BRB P.24: "for every model that fails its save, the unit suffers an unsaved wound... for each unsaved wound one model is immediately removed from the table as a casualty."

and finally FNP, BRB, Page 75, second sentence: "If a model with this ability suffers an unsaved wound, roll a dice."

So ES and Remove casualties have to happen simultaneously, since they both happen upon failing an armor save thereby creating an unsaved wound.

FNP HAS to go before this otherwise you would be removed from the table as a casualty before you get to roll for FNP.

copper.talos wrote:Arbitrary conclusions... Not a single word in the BRB, codex or FAQ can back this up.
Show the wording that makes clear that ES is different to any other abilities that trigger on unsaved wounds, so it gets "delayed activation". What? You can't find none? I thought so too..

I don't have the codexes (most of mine were stolen recently) so I can only go off of what has been posted. What was posted is that ES and RC share wording. FNP *must* occur before RC. Since RC and ES happen at the same time, and FNP must happen before RC, FNP must happen before ES.

Hits->Wounds->Saves->Unsaved Wounds all steps happen simultanously. At this point FNP and ES got their trigger event.

"If a model with this ability suffers an unsaved wound, roll a dice." and "any model that suffers one or more unsaved wounds from a weapon or model with this special rule immediately loses its armour save" do not even HINT at a timing difference between their activation...

copper.talos wrote:Hits->Wounds->Saves->Unsaved Wounds all steps happen simultanously. At this point FNP and ES got their trigger event.

All steps happen sequentially, all wounds are resolved simultaneously.

"If a model with this ability suffers an unsaved wound, roll a dice." and "any model that suffers one or more unsaved wounds from a weapon or model with this special rule immediately loses its armour save" do not even HINT at a timing difference between their activation...

Really? The word "immediately" doesn't mean there's a difference?

Yes to how the ES RESOLVES. Not activate.

And last time I checked if the A says do X, and B says do Z immediately, then since both A and B start together, it's Z that happens first and X that happens second.

That is the point, you can not resolve something if you are ignoring the trigger event.

To ignore the Unsaved wound means you can not resolve anything that happened because of that unsaved wound.

To do so is to not ignore the unsaved wound and that is breaking the rules.

So after all this are, we clear that FNP and ES activate together?

As I said before ES having in its wording the "immediately" resolves before FNP. Actually it isn't even necessary, but let's move on. So at the time FNP resolves the effect of the ES has already taken place. At this point, ignoring the wound won't do anything. The effect has happened and the only way to reverse that would be through a "restore its armour save" or similar wording, which ofcourse the FNP doesn't have, because all it was meant to do is keep the model alive. There you have it.

The trigger for RC is suffering an unsaved wound. Are you implying that everything triggering off of an unsaved wound must be resolved?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

copper.talos wrote:So after all this are, we clear that FNP and ES activate together?

No. That would also mean that RC triggers at the same time - which is 100% false.

Arbitrary conclusion again...
RC will happen after all abilities that trigger on unsaved wounds resolve...

That's pretty arbitrary. RC triggers on unsaved wounds, just like everything else. Why are you relegating it to the end?

From wound to casualties there is a series of events,
hits->wound->saves->unsaved wounds->casualties.

ANY ability that triggers of these events resolves before going to the next. That is not arbitrary, that is a fact. eg rending it activates on the "wound" rolls and resolves before "saves" rolls. Same with everything else. ES, FNP etc are no different...

copper.talos wrote:Arbitrary conclusion again...
RC will happen after all abilities that trigger on unsaved wounds resolve...

Oh for...

No, it does not. It happens IMMEDIATELY. Do you know what else happens immediately? Entropic Strike.

So, we have TWO things that BOTH happen immediately. THus they happen at the same time. IF you do not agree, then frankly you are now just a plain old troll as there is absolutely no way to read that two events which BOTH happen immediately upon an Unsaved Wound occuring as somehow happening at different points in time.

Now, once you agree with the above, then you MSUT agree that FNP has to occur before RC - if it doesnt, then it doesnt function.

So, FNP occurs before RC and, because RC happens at the same time as ES FNP occurs before ES.

QED

Now, you can dispute this, but to do so you must show a rule that proves RC happening after other abilities, which requires you making up rules as frankly they dont exist. Or, you coudl finally admit youre wrong.

Hmm I guess you missed the "both FNP and ES activate together, because there is absolutely not any difference in the activation trigger between them" part. The "immediately" thing you are repeating over and over is NOT part of ES activation, it is how it RESOLVES.

edit: here are the triggers "If a model with this ability suffers an unsaved wound,..." and "any model that suffers one or more unsaved wounds from a weapon or model with this special rule...". Timing difference? none...

Absolutely no point arguing with you, as you are unable to actually read rules in any way that actually makes sense.

Timing difference, absolutely. Done.

FNP occurs before ES and RC, as both ES and RC occur at exactly the same time. Kel proved this over and over and over and over, you seem unable to understand this.

Well, I find myself somewhat confused by your arguments, whether by my own lack of intelligence or your wording remains to be seen, and English is my first language, so kudos to copper.talos for following the argument seemingly better than I have, when English is (presumably) not their first language, your English is commendable sir/madam.

Your argument (Komissar Kel, et al), for the sake of clarity, appears to me to be:

Step 1: Attacks are made
Step 2: Wounds are caused
Step 3: Saves are taken
Step 4: Feel No Pain checks are made
Step 5: All other attendant rules which apply through "unsaved wounds" trigger
Step 6: Remove casualties

Now, your argument (once again, as it appears to me) hinges on the fact that FNP slips in front of other "unsaved wound" triggers, due to the fact that the Remove Casualties step occurs simultaneously with other attendant rules which apply through the unsaved wounds trigger, thus essentially melding steps 5 and 6. Furthermore, Feel No Pain -must- trigger before these steps, since, as you rightly say, having to remove casualties and roll to see whether they are in fact casualties at the same time wouldn't make any sense.

However, I argue that for the same reasons that Feel No Pain triggers before Remove Casualties, all other "Unsaved Wound" events also -must- occur before Remove Casualties as well. Why? Because by stating that FNP occurs beforehand, you are creating a step between unsaved wounds and remove casualties, a step that can then be filled by all manner of other special rules and abilities which also trigger off the same input.

Now, in this way, it does not matter whether FNP or ES takes priority, since:

Step 1: Model takes a wound from a Scarab Swarm, fails its armour save
Step 2: Player rolls a FNP check to see whether they can ignore the wound, and passes.
Step 3: Entropic Strike triggers, as the wound has not been saved, only ignored.

Once again I must say that ignoring a wound does not mean you ignore the fact that events leading up to you needing to roll that FNP check never happened. Some of you have stated that by applying rules which trigger on a wound that -must- be ignored by the successful application of FNP, you are not in fact ignoring the wound at all. And to this I say, yes, you aren't ignoring the fact that an unsaved wound occurred, since in fact it did, all you are ignoring is the fact that usually a model who suffers an unsaved wound takes 1 off of their Wounds Characteristic.

An important distinction must be made with the FNP wording, as it is worded thus:

"On a 4, 5, or 6 the injury is ignored...."
-Not-:
"On a 4,5, or 6 the unsaved wound is discarded"

Since the wording never tells us to ignore or discard an -unsaved wound-, it must be then interpreted that an unsaved wound has still occurred. The counterargument as I see it is that "injury" is synonymous with "unsaved wound", but there does not seem to be any precedent for this interpretation. In fact, there is a slight precedent towards the opposite, in that the only other USR in that section which deals with wounds and so forth (Vulnerable to Blasts and Templates) uses the wording "...each unsaved wound is doubled to two wounds". Strongly implying, to me at least, that the use of the word "injury" is deliberate, to indicate that we still assume for the purposes of other special rules triggers, that an unsaved wound still occurred.

Basically, ignoring a wound =/= saving a wound, and thus, via the wording of Entropic Strike (and other similar special rules) these rules must still be applied.

The problem with saying that injury != unsaved wound is that now you have an unsaved wound to apply. Injury must mean unsaved wound for FNP to do anything. So a successful FNP ignores the unsaved wound.

edit: That, and context says it means the unsaved wound. 1,2,3 you take the wound as normal (here wound == unsaved wound). 4,5,6 you ignore the injury. Injury == the previously mentioned wound == unsaved wound

nosferatu1001 wrote:

copper.talos wrote:Arbitrary conclusion again...
RC will happen after all abilities that trigger on unsaved wounds resolve...

Oh for...

No, it does not. It happens IMMEDIATELY. Do you know what else happens immediately? Entropic Strike.

So, we have TWO things that BOTH happen immediately. THus they happen at the same time. IF you do not agree, then frankly you are now just a plain old troll as there is absolutely no way to read that two events which BOTH happen immediately upon an Unsaved Wound occuring as somehow happening at different points in time.

Now, once you agree with the above, then you MSUT agree that FNP has to occur before RC - if it doesnt, then it doesnt function.

So, FNP occurs before RC and, because RC happens at the same time as ES FNP occurs before ES.

QED

Now, you can dispute this, but to do so you must show a rule that proves RC happening after other abilities, which requires you making up rules as frankly they dont exist. Or, you coudl finally admit youre wrong.

Actually Nos, I cannot find any difference in the wording between Removing Casualties, Entropic Strike, and Feel No Pain. The first two say they happen immediately upon suffering an unsaved wound, the third says it happens upon suffering an unsaved wound. Context would tell me that if anything, those with "Immediately" happen before anything else, which means FNP literally does nothing as written unless they all happen at the exact same time, and even then it's impossible for the ability to function correctly.

It is my understanding that with regards to Feel No Pain, your position is that if you perform any action caused by suffering an unsaved wound, then you have not ignored the wound/injury (as Feel No Pain tells you to do if successful) and have broken a rule. Please correct me if I have mis-stated your argument.

My position is that by rolling for Feel No Pain, you have performed an action caused by suffering an unsaved wound and thus have not ignored the wound/injury (as Feel No Pain tells you to do if successful) and have broken a rule.

I have no problem playing it such that nothing triggers if FNP is passed, or playing it such that everything triggers if FNP is passed, but in either circumstance there must be an FAQ or a house rule or some form of a rewrite specifically exempting either Feel No Pain (if nothing triggers) or Remove Casualties (if everything triggers) because neither circumstance actually functions properly if you follow all of the rules 100%.

@nosferatu1001
KK said 2 arguments why FNP should trigger first.
The 1st was the "1 or more wounds" mess. This has been proved time and time again that it holds no grounds, is against the rules and it fails on the case on 1 unsaved attack->1 unsaved wound. This should help your memory:
"BRB says in each initiative step anything that happens is simultaneous. So all hits are resolved simultaneously to wounds [nothing can come between resolving wound A and wound C], all saves are rolled simultaneously [nothing can come between resolving save A and save C], so at that point you end up with a number of unsaved wounds that happen simultaneously [nothing can come between suffering unsaved wound A and unsaved wound C]. At this step both FNP and ES would get their trigger at the same time, one would get a number the other would get a yes/no. "

The 2nd argument was that ES wording make it trigger after FNP. The wording of the triggers: "If a model with this ability suffers an unsaved wound,..." and "any model that suffers one or more unsaved wounds from a weapon or model with this special rule..." do not give even a hint of a timing deference.

So if what KK said was your last argument to prove that FNP happens before ES, then actually you have no argument...

Actually you proved nothing; Kel explained the base case of 1 wound, you just chose to ignore it.

Stop cutting short quotes that prove ES and RC happen at the exact same time, as it simply shows the holes in your argument.

Why are you hiding behind KK all the time? Can't you spell out your own arguments?

Anyway, it's you who refuses to accept that the notion of KK's "process" means that you apply FNP after each save roll is lost, which is against the rules since all unsaved wounds happen simultaneously.

And what about the answer of 1 attack -> 1 unsaved wound? It got refuted when it was made. Repeat it again so it'll get refuted again if you wish...

The problem with saying that injury != unsaved wound is that now you have an unsaved wound to apply. Injury must mean unsaved wound for FNP to do anything. So a successful FNP ignores the unsaved wound.

I guess the simplest way I can explain where I stand on this issue is to explain it like this: An unsaved wound -becomes- an injury, if you will, and Feel No Pain stops that process of Unsaved Wound -> Injury. So an unsaved wound is suffered, but the model is not injured by it. So yeah, you apply the unsaved wound but then ignore the fact it's supposed to reduce your Wounds, because Feel No Pain says that you should.