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Outrage over the implied rape of a fictional character who is of a fictional race in a fictional game seems a bit much..

We must be really desensitized to be okay with the regular depiction of severe brutality and death to not even blink when there is a dioarama regarding that yet are up in arms over a rape that never occured in reality

I'm falling back on "not what I said" because it isn't what I said. You're putting words in my mouth.

Everyone has a fascination with nudity, we're human. We don't all choose to put it in the forefront in situations where it doesn't apply. A lot of the stranger people in this and other geeky hobbies (not specifically these hobbies, but just for this case) don't know where things are appropriate. If I'm playing against a 13 year old kid (or hell, anyone) at my local game store and my army is full of titmonster tentacle rape or whatever, that's completely inappropriate. It's also not intrinsic to the setting of almost any game, and doesn't belong in it. If I played some game where that was the norm with a group of people who wanted to play, then sure. But in a game of 40k, it has no place.

And that piece is implying rape really, really obviously. There's a dude unbuckling his belt and they're trying to take the armor off the Guardian so they can have her way with her. It's implied really, really heavily, the modeling just isn't showing it since that's well beyond the limits of good taste.

Kirasu wrote:Outrage over the implied rape of a fictional character who is of a fictional race in a fictional game seems a bit much..

We must be really desensitized to be okay with the regular depiction of severe brutality and death to not even blink when there is a dioarama regarding that yet are up in arms over a rape that never occured in reality

The ridiculous cartoon violence factor is appropriate to 40k. That's the game we're playing; it's a Saturday morning cartoon cranked up to 11. The background has always been full of big battles, bloody massacres, daemonic rituals, and what have you. Rape doesn't really get touched on because it doesn't need to be. Contextually, there's a huge difference between a soldier dying doing his job and someone being held down and raped, and the latter is entirely more horrifying.

Kirasu wrote:Outrage over the implied rape of a fictional character who is of a fictional race in a fictional game seems a bit much..

We must be really desensitized to be okay with the regular depiction of severe brutality and death to not even blink when there is a dioarama regarding that yet are up in arms over a rape that never occured in reality

I think it is obvious that the diorama is an attempt to tell a story. I have zero issue with it. It is also not a gaming fig, so it isn't going to be put down on a gaming table as a playing piece regardless. Thus I see the piece as a non-issue.

I more take exception to the "Hurr, look at the big exposed breasts I sculpted on all my models" types who express severe stunted immaturity or a desire to offend/make other people uncomfortable. And to be clear I have no problem with the imagery itself, its the behavior of some of those attracted to this sort of display that I find sad/embarrassing. Sometimes it is the people associated that i would like to see removed, not the models themselves...

who cares if boobs are showing? You really think gamer guys with no girls make models with boobs just cuz there not getting any? they've got porn to look at which is a million times more graphic than an inch tall badly painted naked elf.

Wow... Personally I really enjoy female and male "sensual" models... sensuality and war are a good fascinating couple in a FICTIONAL setting. Come on... it's sci-fi not historical wargaming.
The concept of beauty and sex as a weapon to subdue the enemy is a fascinating one and it can be very interesting (read Heretics of Dune).
As a side note I would like to point out that the idea of "someone who like cheesecake models=perv nerd" is dumb and hide, IMHO, a necessity of avoiding the shame of being a Nerd (...oooh... I'm not a loser that play with little sex toys... My models are SERIOUS) ... Well... I'm proudly a Nerd and, even if I don't own such a model (I play DA and Orks... no boobs here) I see nothing wrong in it...

punkow wrote:Wow... Personally I really enjoy female and male "sensual" models... sensuality and war are a good fascinating couple in a FICTIONAL setting. Come on... it's sci-fi not historical wargaming.
The concept of beauty and sex as a weapon to subdue the enemy is a fascinating one and it can be very interesting (read Heretics of Dune).
As a side note I would like to point out that the idea of "someone who like cheesecake models=perv nerd" is dumb and hide, IMHO, a necessity of avoiding the shame of being a Nerd (...oooh... I'm not a loser that play with little sex toys... My models are SERIOUS) ... Well... I'm proudly a Nerd and, even if I don't own such a model (I play DA and Orks... no boobs here) I see nothing wrong in it...

QFT

on another note I personally like boobs. And Hell, I like looking at them. And so what i like seeing them on miniatures?!

Having now seen the models in question i revise my opinions. Whilst they probanly wouldnt let you play a naked female commissar in my FLGS GW they are actualy very tasteful and i may even try to get the commissar. as it is ive converted several guards men in my IG army to guards women.

Dracheous wrote:Nudity is but one form of art that is everywhere; tell me what is the difference between that guy over there building an all bikini clad female army and a guy that paints large oil nudes? In my opinion there is nothing different as both have found an outlet for several urges including that which is to lust over the human form.

FYI, most serious painters do not paint nudes to 'lust over the human form'. I've you've got to involve lust into it it's 'lust for form'. It is aestetics that's the focus, not tits.

When sketching or painting a nude model there is no sexual connotation whatsoever. Sorry if I dispelled an illusion.

Dracheous wrote:Have you ever tried wearing armor? Let alone swinging a sword in it? F*ck that I'll take the ability to move and go with out the heavy plates.

Have you? There is a reason european armour evolved the way it did.

Sry, have't read the whole thread but I'd like to say that the nudity itself is irrelevant. Its the one-sidedness of how and when its depicted that bothers me. To decide what's appropriate or inappropriate nudity is a lost cause since its merely a matter of opinion.

What is less a matter of opinion is the how women and men consistently are depicted by different standards. This is something you could break down into figures if you would have to be anal about it, the opinion is whether its good or not. I say its not. I would be OK with the pin-up miniatures if there were an equal amount of male and female pin ups. I see two general "roles" (gender roles if you wish) for female miniatures, the dominatrix and the passive object of desire. While male minis have a much wider range of roles to "choose" from. Sure there are more to it than this but I would say that its a viable claim in most cases.

When will we see muscular female killing-machines en masse without gigantic breasts with nothing but murder and slaughter in their eyes? I would like to see some diversity, I'm not saying "don't do this and don't do that" but can someone please think outside the box for once! Female soldiers that say "I'm here to wage war" and not "I'm here to make your miniature collection more sexy (in an hetero-normative sense)"!

I love commissars (as people were discussing in the beginning of this thread) and it would be cool to see a female commissar that does not show any more skin than her male colleagues that doesn't wear a corset or wear high heels (who came up with that ridiculous idea, female soldiers wearing high heels!?) that got the same aura of respect as its male counterparts. And I wouldn't just want to see one (just to be political correct), I would like to see several! It would also be refreshing to see a new cadian and catachan box with female minis just like eldar and dark eldar boxes already do (and no, the cadian women wouldn't need breast bumps on their flak jacket, look at an combat-equipped real-life female soldier, you won't see much tits).

I would like to see a miniature range where the male physique (a quite fit one I might add) isn't necessarily the "golden standard" from which everything else is a deviation! I would like to see more diverse miniature ranges where all kinds of people, fiends an what not is represented!

Well... If you're saying that some GW ranges lacks female minis well... QFT ...
It's sad to see that Cadians or catachans do not have any female... Btw some races have good female models: Eldars have a lot of Non-cheesecake females, while DE well...they have to be BDSM style !!! And SoBs ? they're all female and surely they do not let you think "ooooh Hot" (well... there are repentias but seriously... some naked skin do not make a mini sensual...)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
About the rape scene... meh... I appreciate the fact that someone want to show the disturbing horrific side of war... but WH40Kis not sociological or hard sci-fi (I would really like if it was but it simply isn't...). it's a space opera! so maybe the rape diorama is somewhat unnecessary

I love DE, I don't find their bdsm-theme very sexist, they all have these outfits, males and females alike. Eldar is another good example of a fairly equal army.

But with SoB, I'm not so sure, they are (not fluffwise but i suppose its the general idea) female space marines (power armor, bolters, ten man squads etc.) and as such are weaker and hate themselves (well kind of) and are served in some bdsm suite which I find somewhat inappropriate in this case. I mean, what's up with the corsets and high heels! And for an (almost) all female army its kind of typical that we find males amongst the HQ-choices. Do we see any females among SM or IG HQ-choices? Anyone? I believe IG does, fluffwise, but we don't see much of those do we?

But again, nakedness doesn't bother me, its the way male and female bodies are depicted differently on a regular basis along normative prejudice. And the general lack of female minis en masse.

Mannahnin wrote:A lot of these nude minis are done purely to cash in on the latter factor, and are junk.

By a lot of, of course, is meant "the overwhelming majority".

99%+ of them probably.

Of course, someone's going to come in here and call me a prude and/or immature for saying that, which only goes to show how immature they are being.

As for Sisters models, I'm not gonna get in to that, they aren't even remotely nude so I don't consider them a topic for this thread.

Brother SRM wrote:
The ridiculous cartoon violence factor is appropriate to 40k. That's the game we're playing; it's a Saturday morning cartoon cranked up to 11. The background has always been full of big battles, bloody massacres, daemonic rituals, and what have you. Rape doesn't really get touched on because it doesn't need to be. Contextually, there's a huge difference between a soldier dying doing his job and someone being held down and raped, and the latter is entirely more horrifying.

When it come down to it, there are any number, events that are probably happening everyday in the 40k universe, that "doesn't needed to be". We don't get much in the way of the vision of the endless work of lobotmized servitors, or how they got that way... We dont hear the thoughts as innocents who just hapened to have psysic potential are killed by inches in the astrinomicon. Given that we in the core materials, a race dedicated to torture as,the means of prolonging their existance, and a god of excess, it's a bit abusurdist to claim that this sort of thing shouldn't pop up now and then.... Warhammer universe isn't a saturday morning cartoon, turned up to 11' - it's Heavy Metal, with the rock soundtrack replaced with gregorian chants...

I really don't care about any of that topic. Glorifying rape is not something I can support...

I can agree it happens, but really there is zero need to depict it, and it is utterly tasteless to do so outside of fetish porn (where it's still tasteless, but it's porn so it doesn't matter).

Dracheous wrote:


You know what I don't get? How people are offended by little miniature models based on a universe that has so many races that are completely built on fluff that involves mass murder, rape and pillaging? The Dark Eldar wouldn't think twice about skull f*cking your baby while you get rammed in the rear with a pineapple, and its going in leaf first! Chaos has Nurgle which is nothing but sex and pleasure. Even Tzeetch plays on that with lulling people in with false images of "pleasure" before turnin' them into bunny rabbits with the super aids, sorry I meant super rabies, screw it this is Tzeetch... BOTH the super aids AND super rabies.

And coming back to the pic of the Eldar woman warrior being advanced on by men. When has man ever proved itself to be completely above this? Not to mention that with simple application of fluff, traitor guard would do this fast!


My question would be, if painting a model of an eldar woman with her tits out makes that modeler a "rapist" in the head; does that mean me building mass armies so that I can roll dice to murder your army entirely make me Hitler? Or Stalin? Cause you know, you're army is CLEARLY not the chosen people and must die! So says the Dice Gods! .

true this!

Dracheous wrote:

Sageheart wrote:and yes nude female warriors make almost no logical sense in terms of combat haha

Have you ever tried wearing armor? Let alone swinging a sword in it? F*ck that I'll take the ability to move and go with out the heavy plates.

hahaha i have actual wore armor, it sucks haha, but a beautiful body wont stop a lasgun round..well maybe it wouldnt

Sageheart wrote:true this!

There's nothing "true" about this.

As for wearing armor-- armor in 40k is actually remarkably light. Full Imperial Guard body armor, including armored boots, greaves, breast/backplate, pauldrons, gauntlets/bracers, and helmet all weigh less than a modern body armor vest. Dunno about other sci-fi miniatures, but with power armor especially there's no reason to have this sort of stupid sexualization as the armor itself enhances your ability to use the armor.

Melissia wrote:

Sageheart wrote:true this!

There's nothing "true" about this.

As for wearing armor-- armor in 40k is actually remarkably light. Full Imperial Guard body armor, including armored boots, greaves, breast/backplate, pauldrons, gauntlets/bracers, and helmet all weigh less than a modern body armor vest. Dunno about other sci-fi miniatures, but with power armor especially there's no reason to have this sort of stupid sexualization as the armor itself enhances your ability to use the armor.

There is no reason not to as well.

This is a fantasy setting, stuff doesn' have to be realistic, if you don't like it then don't play with it and don't buy it, just don't try to enforce your "morals" on other people.

PhantomViper wrote:There is no reason not to as well.

Aside from trying to actually make the models look good, no.

PhantomViper wrote:This is a fantasy setting, stuff doesn' have to be realistic

Dunno if you actually bothered to read my post (you didn't), but I'm not arguing for realism.

As for "morals"? I don't give a damn. Also, shut up. I'm not "enforcing my morals" on anyone. I'm expressing my distaste in the models, not claiming others shouldn't produce them.

Just because you can do what you wish with your models doesn't mean I am obligated to like it or approve of it.

Melissia wrote:

PhantomViper wrote:There is no reason not to as well.

Aside from trying to actually make the models look good, no.

What doesn't look good to you might look good to other people, people have diferent tastes.

[

Melissia wrote: Also, shut up.

So sorry dear, but this is a public forum, you don't get to decide when other people may talk or not, even if you don't like what they have to say.

I don't know, I guess my issue is that whenever i hear people hating on nude models people usually (in my experience) lower them as unable to have any aesthetic value and as just the creations of undersexed kids that deserves to be tossed to the side. I think that nude models are just another way in which people can choose to express themselves, whether this is done in a mature way or not depends on the creator, but by devaluing nude models as all junk, that is not allowing that forum for possible beauty/interest/etc. to be used.

personally you may not like the models, i personally hate the current gw beastman models, it doesn't mean I should devalue all attempts to use those models for an artistic endevor.

Sageheart wrote:but by devaluing nude models as all junk

I don't see people saying "ALL" of them are.

Just most.

PhantomViper wrote:What doesn't look good to you might look good to other people, people have diferent tastes.

No gak sherlock.

And since you aren't willing to pay attention, I'll just repost this here:

Melissia wrote:I'm not "enforcing my morals" on anyone. I'm expressing my distaste in the models, not claiming others shouldn't produce them.

Just because you can do what you wish with your models doesn't mean I am obligated to like it or approve of it.

Stop holding a double standard, PhantomViper.

Again Melissia, I'll repeat myself, Iim not saying all people are saying that, if you read what i wrote, i was stating that if we devalue nude models as junk then we are inculding all the good and the bad of this section. If you look at the first page or two of this discussion you should be able to notice quite a few people talking in this way, and I am going against that.

If you don't like the models, that's all good, you are not obligated to like it, but people shouldn't (in my honest humble opinion) just devalue and ignore the entire field since they have some belief that nudity isn't something that should be seen in models. That is only limiting people.

Sageheart wrote:if we devalue nude models as junk

I repeat myself: we aren't (or at least I, certainly, am not) devaluing all nude models as junk.

I haven't read people saying all nude models are junk in this thread. Where did you read such?



edit: Bluh. that was some twisted grammar there. Sorry.

i think the Sisters' power armor looks great, but i'm not a fan of the Repentia...
by the logic of this thread, i should be into the Repentia, who are showing some skin, but i think they are ugly sculpts...

same goes for Vinnie's Commissar chick, i should be into her boobs, but i think it's an ugly sculpt...
on the other hand, i like the Raging Heroes version, as well as the Warforge version...
sure they are dressed a little sexier than a male version, but a corset makes more sense than nothing at all...
i do own the Chris Fitzpatrick GW version, just because it is rare, but even i have to admit it's a ugly sculpt...

there are unreleased topless versions of the Vect slave girls (which i do own) and Witch Elves (which i would like to own)...
in this case, it seems GW though that releasing these minis would have been crossing the line seeing as how they targets kids as their main audience...
these minis have been on my want list not simple because they are topless, but because they are well sculpted, with anatomy similar to the Juan Diaz Demonettes...
it seems that the general concencus is that the Diaz Demonettes are lovely, and never should have gone away...
i suspect that GW felt they were a bit risque for the kiddies, and toned down the new ones with corsets and the odd boob showing, instead of six...

Fitzpatrick continued with the same style when he did his Aegyptus line...
the Basti range has loads of wonderfully sculpted topless cat-ladies, with realistic slim proportions...
i have never heard an uproar about how he is exploiting women, or pandering to the 40 year old virgin, furry lover, crowd...

Andrea has a gorgeous line of large scale pin-ups...
most quite tame in their presentation...

yes, there are some horrible nude sculpts out there that don't make much sense in their game setting, and a few that do scream pandering to male fantasy, but it in no way equates to 99%+ as Melissia claims...

a lot of very tasteful, appropriate, nude or semi-nude minis have been sculpted by some very talented, hard working, sculptors...
those their work makes me say wow, and appreciate a well painted version by Pepa (who is a woman by the way), it does not make me reach for my wallet just so i can have boobs on my shelf...
skin is my least favorite thing to paint...
i would rather paint a beat up, heavily armed, Space Marine any day...

the point is that those of us who can appreciate a nude/semi-nude mini are not necessarily spending our hard earned to support the trend, and to say the nudity is never appropriate (see celtic historicals), or that there is not a large selection of wonderfully sculpted nude minis on the market, is just not true...

this topics title never made the seperation between nudes in miniature, and nudes in a tabletop wargame...
because, really, there are very few instances where nudity and sex appeal fit the setting of a tabletop wargame...
for the painter and collector there is really no restriction...

personally i'm not into kinky sculpts, or toplessness for it's own sake, but i have seen very few minis where the nudity didn't make any sense at all...
the Kabuki Bughunter is one of those though, a beautiful Aliens inspired woman with heavy leg armor, a big gun, and no shirt?!?
i so wanted to like the mini, but just can't...
some body armour would have made it such a better sculpt...

i would venture to guess that most of the pro-nude camp are about as moderate as me in their view of this topic, yet the naysayers seem to be full of hate and judgement...
it 's been said plenty of times, if you don't like something, don't buy it...
simple...

it is ridiculous to judge people who are cool with naked minis, or Nakatan's diorama, to be hairy-palmed perverts living in dingy basements, or future rapists...

cheers
jah

jah-joshua wrote:i would venture to guess that most of the pro-nude camp are about as moderate as me in their view of this topic, yet the naysayers seem to be full of hate and judgement...

That's because you have n't actually bothered to read a goddamned thing.

Hell the "pro-nude" people are the ones tossing the most insults around, such as "prude" and "immature".

I enjoy nudity, I don't get any sexual gratification looking at nude models. But am enthralled by the female form, it's beautiful! Women get to enjoy the physique of "perfect" male form any time on public TV why can't I enjoy the same?(the models need to be done in good work, it's art!)

My hats off to the guy who came up with the rape scene, that's MODELING! Thinking outside the wargaming models typical appearance!

If the nude models in question were a crappy paint job, would everyone still be upset?

Melissia wrote:

jah-joshua wrote:i would venture to guess that most of the pro-nude camp are about as moderate as me in their view of this topic, yet the naysayers seem to be full of hate and judgement...

That's because you have n't actually bothered to read a goddamned thing.

Hell the "pro-nude" people are the ones tossing the most insults around, such as "prude" and "immature".

I think my problem isn't that nude models exists. I enjoy them just fine.

My problem is rather with that group of people that seem offended that people might be offended. And I suppose trying to argue with a person that either puts principles over sense or is simply anti-social is a waste of time.

Aymen polonius!

I don't really care that nude models exist. It's not harming anyone so I don't care if they're sold.

That said, the vastly overwhelming majority of them are still distasteful and pointless.

EDIT: 4oursword: (NSFW, eldar rape scene below)

Spoiler:

Nudity is ok as long as it is kept clean and not OTT. I think that nude human or human-like figures should be more novelty miniatures like a one-off you would paint nicely collectors item, but not game with. I am not keen with nude minis on the table top unless maybe if it were a historical game with Celts or some feral tribe, but I doubt you would see a guy or gal running out in a modern/sci-fi warzone with no clothes on. ALTHOUGH I may be forgiving for monsters and beasts if they were more animal-like than semi intelligent because animals don't cover up their bitz.

The Eldar rape scene is really well put together, and really reflects the Imperial Guard of what they really are like, because after reading fluff and Horus Heresy books they are actually quite violent and sexually driven s'pose they are humans though...