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Melissia wrote:

Sageheart wrote:if we devalue nude models as junk

I repeat myself: we aren't (or at least I, certainly, am not) devaluing all nude models as junk.

I haven't read people saying all nude models are junk in this thread. Where did you read such?

I have to agree taht you are not, and in that quote as you can see i am using the word "If", if implies that it can happen. And if you really want i can go through this thread and the other ones like it online and show you where people are stating things similar to that.

examples:

chromedog wrote:It's not just those without gamer wives.

It's those without ANY female companionship at all.
The socially insular and maladroit.

Squidmanlolz wrote:

Thare1774 wrote:@Mannahnin- I totally agree that there are nude/semi nude minis that are done well and make sense. I'm speaking of the ones that are done for purely sexual reasons. I as m not a prude and none of it offends me, I just don't see value in it a lot of the time.

There's no real value besides the people willing to spend money on it, it's like miniature, expensive, metal smut that beyond sitting on a shelf doesn't offer anything to anyone.

im not going to look for any more, im tryingmy best not to use any extremes in my own writing, i dont think all nude models are good, but I IN MY EXPERIENCE have noticed a great deal of people shooting down nude models as not being worth the time BECAUSE they are nude, rather than for another particular reason. In a game that has rape, mass-murder, a demon-god with half naked women demons, genocide, etc. i don't see the issue with nudity.

Melissia wrote:I really don't care about any of that topic. Glorifying rape is not something I can support...

I can agree it happens, but really there is zero need to depict it, and it is utterly tasteless to do so outside of fetish porn (where it's still tasteless, but it's porn so it doesn't matter).

Theres a 40k cartoon with rape in it? wtf. I honestly think it could do without rape unless its necessary to the story. I usually just speed through those parts anyways.

Yes, there's 40k rape erotica out there, both fo the written and drawn variety. Also as noted above, there's the (disturbing) diorama.

Melissa, something tells me you don't enjoy the female form as much as I do

Rejn wrote:Melissa, something tells me you don't enjoy the female form as much as I do

I would not want to know how much you enjoy the female form in he first place

As an aside, I just noticed my next post will be post # 15000...

Make it a good one Mel.

Nooo, noooo, noooo... We are fighting over nothing, you see what that image depicts is a respectful soldier helping a hostile enemy fix her wardrobe malfunction, he didn't pull it off, he's giving it back to her cause it fell off.

The guy that's behind the tank OBVIOUSLY had to pee, and he's just zipping back up his pants. It's all a huge misunderstanding!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Awww Melissa :( are you judging me? I'm gonna go cry in a corner now

shadowsnip wrote:

Melissia wrote:I really don't care about any of that topic. Glorifying rape is not something I can support...

I can agree it happens, but really there is zero need to depict it, and it is utterly tasteless to do so outside of fetish porn (where it's still tasteless, but it's porn so it doesn't matter).

Theres a 40k cartoon with rape in it? wtf. I honestly think it could do without rape unless its necessary to the story. I usually just speed through those parts anyways.

As if Warhammer/40k could get weirder? In one of the Horus Heresy Books, (I think it may be Horus rising) there is a reference to sex on page 321 between Euphrati Keeler an Imperial soldier...or that's what it had appeared like.

Rejn wrote:Awww Melissa :( are you judging me? I'm gonna go cry in a corner now

No, it's just none of my business.

Rejn wrote:Nooo, noooo, noooo... We are fighting over nothing, you see what that image depicts is a respectful soldier helping a hostile enemy fix her wardrobe malfunction, he didn't pull it off, he's giving it back to her cause it fell off.

The guy that's behind the tank OBVIOUSLY had to pee, and he's just zipping back up his pants. It's all a huge misunderstanding!

Sounds Legit. I'm actually glad someone posted this one, with there being no solid, official back-story to the diorama, this explanation is as likely as the insinuations of rape.

Melissia wrote:

Rejn wrote:Awww Melissa :( are you judging me? I'm gonna go cry in a corner now

No, it's just none of my business.

People, if you are gonna fight take it outside

Arm.chair.general wrote:People, if you are gonna fight take it outside

Uhm.... what?

There's no fighting, that's stupid, I just said it's none of my business how much he does or does not "appreciate" nude models.

c0un7_z3r0 wrote: I see two general "roles" (gender roles if you wish) for female miniatures, the dominatrix and the passive object of desire.

I think there are three actually, the two you mentioned and also "The Bertha" as we used to call them.

The Bertha is usually depicted for comic relief (though not always). It is usually some combination of large/fat woman/masculine/butch.

Examples include the matronly and heavy set Mordheim sister (miniatures), various characters from movies (commonly evil stepsisters or matrons, etc.)), and can go to as much of an extreme as the orc cheerleader for Bloodbowl...

Melissia wrote:

jah-joshua wrote:i would venture to guess that most of the pro-nude camp are about as moderate as me in their view of this topic, yet the naysayers seem to be full of hate and judgement...

That's because you have n't actually bothered to read a goddamned thing.

Hell the "pro-nude" people are the ones tossing the most insults around, such as "prude" and "immature".

how can you tell me i haven't read the 11 goddamned pages we have going???
you don't know me, or what i have done...

i posted on page 8 after reading through the first 8 pages, and then again page 10 after reading what had gone on inthe last 2 days...
i just get the feeling that the people on the con side of the issue are taking this much more personal, and the pro side is a lot more ambivalent...
yes, there have been insults on both sides, but not from me...

i do refute your claim that 99%+ of the topless or nude minis out on the market are "distasteful and pointless"...
i would say it's more like 50/50...
there really are some nice pin-ups, topless minis, and full-on naked ladies that don't cross the line into smut, exploitation, or crimes against humanity...

if they are not your cup of tea that's fine, there is no reason to think that i am trying to insult you by disagreeing, just as there is no reason for you to insult me because i have an opinion...

cheers
jah

jah-joshua wrote:how can you tell me i haven't read the 11 goddamned pages we have going???

Because what you said proved that you didn't.

jah-joshua wrote:i just get the feeling that the people on the con side of the issue are taking this much more personal, and the pro side is a lot more ambivalent...

Your feelings are wrong.

ok, you disagree with me, but that doesn't changed the fact that i have read every post...

i just have a different opinion than you...

at least in my post i gave good reasons for my stance, and sited what i like and don't like, as well as referencing different minis for both sides of the argument...

i'm not trying to start a fight, i'm trying to contribute to the discussion...

cheers
jah

Well... I'm sorry if I offended anyone (I don't think so but sometimes you're offensive without noticing it)...

There's something I do not understand Melissia... why do you dislike so much nude models? I read through the thread but i didn't understand...
EDIT for horrible grammar

Most of the time, it's because it's obviously just to titilate others. Other times it's because they're really just not good models.

I don't oppose EVERY one of them. I liked the old daemonette models for example, but then, they made sense in-universe as well.

Melissia wrote:I can agree it happens, but really there is zero need to depict it, and it is utterly tasteless to do so outside of fetish porn (where it's still tasteless, but it's porn so it doesn't matter).

I think Steig Larrson would disagree, on the general need to depict it in a fictional setting - a depiction isn't of nesc a glorification, it's just one more aspect that makes the future grimmer and darker... and since the peice in question -is- fetish porn does that mean you give it a pass on tastelessness?

Melissia wrote:Most of the time, it's because it's obviously just to titilate others. Other times it's because they're really just not good models.

I don't oppose EVERY one of them. I liked the old daemonette models for example, but then, they made sense in-universe as well.

Melissia, I remember years ago seeing you post on B&C and not agreeing with a single thing you said. In this thread I agree with you on almost every single point.

if you want the straight good answer I'll tell everyone one of you what it is.

Rape is bad and should only be used when necessary to demonstrate story not because (AWWW DATS HOT) rape is one of the most fethed up things in this world and if you say "what the feth do you know about it SHADOWSNIP? aren't you a pervy slaanesh anyways???" Ill just retort by saying I know a lot more about it than I'd like to (it didn't happen to me but to many people I know)

BOOBS ON MODELS ARE FINE! as long as theres no sexual organs going into other sexual organs on the model ITS OKAY because if there was intercourse on the model thats technically porn.

Rape porn is EFFED UP. BDSM is one thing but when you're watching someone get raped and like it YOU ARE FETHED UP. I understand fetishes perfectly but rape porn??

If you don't like a nude commissar then don't buy one and don't hate on people who do have one if they aren't hurting anyone.

And by god i pay 33 bucks for 10 daemonettes if i want them to have tits I'll make them have tits. Its not just your hobby its mine too!

Honestly, this issue is way too subjective to have a constructive debate on. It's all down to personal taste whether you find the models distasteful or not, and it's going to be impossible to make the other party feel the same way - it is, after all, personal opinion here. It's not something that can be debated.

I think the last 11 pages of throwing not-so-veiled insults at each other proves that this thread won't accomplish a thing.

I'm not insulting anyone I'm just pointing out the obvious. Don't buy a nude model if you don't like them. If you like making nude models because thats your thing then roll with it. And if you don't like nuduity then don't deal with it by not buying nude models. And if it offends you that much don't play with people who have nude models. Is it that hard to comprehend? \

I don't see anything wrong with nude models.

I think the human body is a beautiful thing, and I don't think nude models are tasteless, until someone's immaturity makes it that way.

Just passing through to state my opinion (;


Automatically Appended Next Post:

shadowsnip wrote:I'm not insulting anyone I'm just pointing out the obvious. Don't buy a nude model if you don't like them. If you like making nude models because thats your thing then roll with it. And if you don't like nuduity then don't deal with it by not buying nude models. And if it offends you that much don't play with people who have nude models. Is it that hard to comprehend? \

^this.

Don't like it? Don't buy it.
To each their own.

Thare1774 wrote:Often while browsing CMON I see nude female miniatures that people paint. It doesn't offend me at all, I just don't get it. For example I saw two today, the first was a female commissar wearing only a trench coat and pants and boots. Breasts exposed as well as her whole upper torso all the way down nearly to her crotch. Why in the world would a female commissar be naked? What is the value of that model? I would think people in this hobby would rather see a really well sculpted legitimate female commissar in full uniform appropriate for gameplay. The second example I saw was a diorama basically depicting the rape of an Eldar female captured by some guardsmen. One had her breastplate in his hands and she was topless on the ground while another guardsmen had his pants unbuttoned and others were watching in amusement. It was really well painted and put together, but what is the motivation to depict a rape scene when it could have just been the same scene minus the rape and nudity? I think in MOST cases it cheapens the time and effort put into creating it, What do you think?

Just passing by to defend the "rape scene", that diorama was not mad eto depict a nude eldar, but to depict a very unused facet of war. It is gross, but superb...

I dont like naked figures, excepet when the nudity makes sense, and is part of the nature: you dont expect a dryad to wear clothes. Meanwhyle, all our "problem with nudity" is a result of culture before anything else, just take a look at very young kids or "selvages", they just dont see problems walking around without clothes...

Lanceradvanced wrote:since the peice in question -is- fetish porn does that mean you give it a pass on tastelessness?

I don' think that particular piece was meant to be porn, but to answer this:

Porn is, almost by definition, tastless. It's not meant to be fine art, and even "classy" porn isn't really.

Mind you, a lot of so-called art is tasteless too, because certain "artists" rely on shock value instead, and taht's what I presume that piece was intended to be.

^^This. Melissa is correct in that all of that dirty crap is senseless, tasteless, and perverse. Shock value is often used as a ways of getting attention, and I don't feel that they deserve that attention because they're just using obscenity as a way of going 'hey! over here!'

Back to the main topic, I don't like how unrealisticnude minis are, in that why would they go into battle without armor, let alone without a shirt? Demonettes are part of the universe's story, while that damn crappy commissar is just unnecessary.

killykavekommando wrote:^^This. Melissa is correct in that all of that dirty crap is senseless, tasteless, and perverse. Shock value is often used as a ways of getting attention, and I don't feel that they deserve that attention because they're just using obscenity as a way of going 'hey! over here!'

Back to the main topic, I don't like how unrealisticnude minis are, in that why would they go into battle without armor, let alone without a shirt? Demonettes are part of the universe's story, while that damn crappy commissar is just unnecessary.

what if your having beers with the boys while your playing and you suddenly bring out the boob commissar and everyone laughs and they have a good time trying to kill the boob girl? Bringing it out just to have a good time and some fun?

I mean isn't wargaming and modelling about expression who you are and to have your army represent you? I mean if you like boobs then you like boobs. Doesn't mean your a tasteless gakker or an incompetent moron if your commissar has boobs?

I mean just picture yourself sitting down with a guy who pulls out a boob Commissar. Your reactions either going to be a shocking laugh or a shocking mad face.

For all those people who got angry Picture yourself saying "I don't want to play because of those boobs... it ruins the immersion"

Okay it ruined the immersion but you still have a game on your hands and a reason to fight and get competitive. To me I care more about winning and crushing my enemies than some bimbo with her ta ta's out but if you're there for the fantasy then you're there for the fantasy,

but in my sincere opinion to the humblest degree I firmly believe that if you're so high strung that you can't play agaisnt someone who has a nude model then you shouldn't be playing warhammer in the first place (I'm not saying anyone here is)

I have a few issues here, firstly I am still trying to work through the process of figuring out who is glorifying rape 0o
It seems like some people consider the hint of something sinister in a graphically moderate scene to be extremely sinister.

I dont consider being very emotional concerning this subject, but if our painted toy soldiers are considered art, then a skillfully made and technically beautiful diorama that has stirred up this much conversation clearly has some value in it.

Melissia wrote:Most of the time, it's because it's obviously just to titillate others. Other times it's because they're really just not good models.

I don't oppose EVERY one of them. I liked the old daemonette models for example, but then, they made sense in-universe as well.

I agree with this completely.

Titillation for the sake of titillation is pointless. I get erotica and the place it has. Porn is just boring.

Nudity on a nymph or dryad is fine and in keeping with it. Nudity on daemons that are the embodiment of a god of pleasure and excess is also fitting (and the older metal ones that people liked) had style in a kinda cheeky way. Several of them had a kind of coyness about them. Coy and nudity and also great big claws and horns and teeth.

Commissar Stripperella is a whole different kettle of fish. Now, I can kinda understand the discipline fetishists (except I don't really. The whole catholic guilt and punishment thing that seems to be behind it stymies me) but not in a miniatures game (unless we're talking Spinespur which is not my bag.).

Sure, I liked cheesecake as much as the next teen boy - I guess I just outgrew the need to have cheesecake and/or pinups/centrefolds on every surface (unlike my 37 year old brother-in-law who still hasn't).