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Like you said, it doesn't even have to be a stat, the range can be put into the description like mastery levels. And I don't want this to play like psychic powers with different effects, which is what they would be if you put the range on the orders. Think about how the imperial guard order system feel so different than just about anything else in the game. I want to capture that feeling of difference, and use it for this order/command system.

How does the IG order system work?

I don't think simply putting the range somewhere else is going to make it different to psychic powers at all, if you want that feeling of difference then you're gonna have to make it more different.

Its very similar, command squads have officers in them that can issue a certain number of orders each turn, and have a command range inside of which command squads can either issue orders or let guardsman platoons use their leadership, i forget which.

Ok...so for normal squads, each sergeant/exarch etc. has a few set commands. These are quite similar in concept to the stances idea in close combat - you take one based on the situation and positioning (Note: We should be careful not to make it bland such as orders that give +1St -1BS! Each order should be very situational, not an autotake every turn). For these kind of squads, the commands are the same, they have a 6" point-blank area of effect range (bubble) - this means that if your squad is cheesily spread out, then some of the models might not hear the order.

For stronger leaders like veteran sergeants or autarchs, they might be able to choose from a better pool of commands.

Note: We should be careful not to make it bland such as orders that give +1St -1BS! Each order should be very situational, not an autotake every turn

agreed, creative is better.

. For these kind of squads, the commands are the same, they have a 6" point-blank area of effect range (bubble) - this means that if your squad is cheesily spread out, then some of the models might not hear the order.

i would say it should just be the whole unit can hear you, we can assume everyone has some form of intra-squad communication, except orks who just shout loud as hell, and making sure every model is within that 6" bubble would just be slow busywork. Yeah some cheese could come out of it, but its minor and not worth complicating the system over.

For stronger leaders like veteran sergeants or autarchs, they might be able to choose from a better pool of commands.

Cool idea, building off of it, there are some orders that take 2 or even 3 command points to issue?

i would say it should just be the whole unit can hear you, we can assume everyone has some form of intra-squad communication, except orks who just shout loud as hell, and making sure every model is within that 6" bubble would just be slow busywork. Yeah some cheese could come out of it, but its minor and not worth complicating the system over.

Good point, but just wondering, if you had intra-squad communication then why would you have to stay within 2" all the time? Wouldn't you set a few men to go over there and snag the objective while another few men advanced through the forest while the rest got a good line of fire through the ruins? And they'd still be able to hear you with the walkie-talkies/soul-bonds/WAAAGH..?

Cool idea, building off of it, there are some orders that take 2 or even 3 command points to issue?

Yeah. Any ways to make it a bit different from psychic powers?

if you had intra-squad communication then why would you have to stay within 2" all the time? Wouldn't you set a few men to go over there and snag the objective while another few men advanced through the forest while the rest got a good line of fire through the ruins? And they'd still be able to hear you with the walkie-talkies/soul-bonds/WAAAGH..?

Because there needs to be a way to distinguish units from each other, and many of the game systems like morale depend on distinct units, which wouldnt make any sense if models are all over the place. Also because itd be hard to remember what is what like that.

Yeah. Any ways to make it a bit different from psychic powers?

I think having command ranges being dependent on the model, combined with the different effects than typical psychic powers, is the best we are going to do. It feels different, and should play different, but idk. Suggestions?



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I do like the idea of different sets of order tables.

my idea goes something like this::

Base Orders: a set of 3 or 4 basic, weak orders that are all useful, but very limited in both their applications and effect.

Veteran Orders: a set of 6ish orders that are all useful and moderately powerful, but nothing over the top. Some of them could even be Base orders as well, to show that normal leaders dont have the experience to issue the higher-calibre orders.

(more awesome sounding name): a set of 3ish orders that take 2 command points each, quite powerful, but can only be issued by a select few models like captains, platoon command squads, etc

(Even more awesomer sounding name): a set of 2-3 orders that may or may not be unique to each army, that are all very powerful, but only issuable by the highest costed and most powerful HQ's like chapter masters, autarchs, etc. This could include things like WAAAGH from the orks.

I think having command ranges being dependent on the model, combined with the different effects than typical psychic powers, is the best we are going to do.

I don't think it should ever be dependent on the model. For normal squad leaders their commands only affect their squad, so that's not a problem, but for HQs + independent characters, their commands could affect a UNIT within 9", however only 1 member of the unit has to be in range, because we assume he passes on the message to his comrades.

You know how psychic powers have a risk - psychic test/perils, well commands don't have to have this risk, but instead have the risk innate to the actual command. So really, all the commands are bad, except in certain situations.

Yeah, exactly, limited in application and effect, that's what I mean!

I like your ideas. Assuming we take the system of taking it in turns to operate units.....here's some ideas:

Commands are made at the start of the Primary Phase. They last for one turn.

Basic Commands
Stay Put!: The unit receives +1 Weapon Skill, +1 Dexterity and -1 Ballistic Skill. It may not move.
Take Cover!: The unit receives +2 Stealth, -1 Dexterity and -2 Ballistic Skill. It may not move.
Empty The Mag!: The unit receives -3 Ballistic Skill. It may fire double the amount of shots, but may not shoot next turn.
Let's Roll!: The unit receives +1 Fortitude, +1 Mobility and +1 Strength. It may not shoot.

On a different note, how are these for morale status names?

Suppressed
Neutralized
Dispatched

but for HQs + independent characters, their commands could affect a UNIT within 9", however only 1 member of the unit has to be in range, because we assume he passes on the message to his comrades.

Yeah that's exactly what i meant by having the command range be dependent on the model. Weak commanders like Chaplains and Librarians might have 1 command point, but a command range of 6", whereas a captain would have 2 command points and a command range of 12", and they can issue orders to any unit within their command range so long as one model of that unit is in range.

You know how psychic powers have a risk - psychic test/perils, well commands don't have to have this risk, but instead have the risk innate to the actual command. So really, all the commands are bad, except in certain situations.

Ok good, thats how they should be, situational bonuses that you have to keep in mind to use at the appropriate times.

Commands are made at the start of the Primary Phase. They last for one turn.

I think we need to decide how we want to activate orders after we get a semi-finalized list. Because with the list of basic orders you gave (looks good by the way) this would be ideal, but for the older orders that were brought up, activating them when necessary would have worked best.

As to your list, im conflicted. I really like the feel and idea behind them, im just not sure if having that many effects in game is best. I think it'd be fine, especially once people got used to the list of orders, but playtesting will decide this.I especially like Empty the Mag!, thats just awesome sounding with a cool mechanic behind it, but -3 BS might be a bit too extensive, maybe -2 BS, or even a range reduction too. Let's Roll! feels like a muted furious charge, so id suggest it be some sort of mobility order with the morale bonus, because 1" difference isn't going to affect things enough. Make it 3", you might have something there, since you'd be doubling the run distance of a normal squad. As for take cover, i feel like this is going to become the new going-to-ground mechanic, so i like it. Otherwise, if going-to-ground is still something seperate, id suggest making it a -1 BS modifier instead of -2.

Suppressed
Neutralized
Dispatched

I'm not sure we've gone over the morale changes in enough depth, so lets hit that next along with orders/commands, Cool names though, but i don't know if dispatched fits very well.

Yeah that's exactly what i meant by having the command range be dependent on the model. Weak commanders like Chaplains and Librarians might have 1 command point, but a command range of 6", whereas a captain would have 2 command points and a command range of 12", and they can issue orders to any unit within their command range so long as one model of that unit is in range

Command point kinda sounds like a battlefield objective.

It feels iffy to have longer ranges on better commanders simply because they're better. It's not realistic, and having 12"+ command ranges is going to lower the strategic value of positioning your commanders. I still think commands should have their own ranges.

As for command points, it seems like unnecessary numbers. Remember established commanders get to choose from a better pool of commands, and letting them cast several of them on the same squad or even dish them out to all of your squads also reduces the tactical value of commands altogether.

I think we need to decide how we want to activate orders after we get a semi-finalized list

I'd suggest having to order them first thing in the turn, because some of them don't allow you to move. Think of commands similar Grimdark's command phase.

I especially like Empty the Mag!, thats just awesome sounding with a cool mechanic behind it, but -3 BS might be a bit too extensive, maybe -2 BS, or even a range reduction too.

Thank you :> The reason I put -3 BS is because the system could be well-exploited (in a good way) to squads that may be entering combat soon, or squads that are about to die.

Let's Roll! feels like a muted furious charge, so id suggest it be some sort of mobility order with the morale bonus, because 1" difference isn't going to affect things enough. Make it 3", you might have something there, since you'd be doubling the run distance of a normal squad.

Does that mean you want me to make it stronger? I'd like to keep the Strength boost because its a command that gets people swaggered up and gorilla-like. How are we going to balance it? How about a Weapon Skill decrease, for all their Ork-like rage?

Let's Roll!: The unit receives +1 Fortitude, +2 Mobility, +1 Strength and -2 Weapon Skill. It may not shoot.

Since charging scales off 100% Mobility, +2M would be +4" move. I think a whole 6" is a bit too much.

As for take cover, i feel like this is going to become the new going-to-ground mechanic, so i like it. Otherwise, if going-to-ground is still something seperate, id suggest making it a -1 BS modifier instead of -2.

It WAS going to be Snap Shots only, but then I decided to remove that mechanic completely and go for straight honest modifiers.

Take Cover!: The unit receives +2 Stealth, -2 Dexterity and -2 Ballistic Skill. It may not move.

Just a Dexterity decrease increase (wat?) to make it more situational.

I'm not sure we've gone over the morale changes in enough depth, so lets hit that next along with orders/commands, Cool names though, but i don't know if dispatched fits very well.

I confess I went onto thesaurus.com (I actually always do for these things...) and searched "route" as in routed and dispatched sounded cool. I quite like it; it sounds like you've sent them home, you've dispatched them. I don't mind routed, but it's phonetically the same as "rooted" which can mean rooted to the ground. So it kinda bothers me a bit.

But this is all I have...

Suppressed: Fortitude reduced by W, cannot move, -3BS
Neutralised: Fortitude reduced by X, cannot move or shoot
Dispatched: Fortitude reduced by Z, cannot shoot, automatically moves their full Mobility directly towards the controlling player's table edge

Not really anything done here. Help me out pliz.


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Will reply in about 10 hours.

It feels iffy to have longer ranges on better commanders simply because they're better. It's not realistic, and having 12"+ command ranges is going to lower the strategic value of positioning your commanders. I still think commands should have their own ranges.
As for command points, it seems like unnecessary numbers. Remember established commanders get to choose from a better pool of commands, and letting them cast several of them on the same squad or even dish them out to all of your squads also reduces the tactical value of commands altogether.

That's why i put the limit at 12" command range, because anything higher than that, and it become meaningless where your Commander is. And the reason i like having command points over flat command amounts assigned to different unit types is because it lets us fine tune the number of orders a model can issue, not only to make sure that they're balanced, but because it provides us as designers a means to push players towards the higher points-cost models. If my little 60 point space marine commander has the same command range and number of orders as space marine captains and chapter masters, theres very little incentive to take one of those higher-cost models instead of him, where as if you have the stats go:

Strike Force Commander: 2 Command Points, 6" Command Range
Captain: 2 Command Points, 12" Range
Chapter Master: 3 command points, 12" range

Then there is good incentive for people to upgrade to the more expensive models, because very few people will be taking them for their direct combat strength.

And no, command ranges don't make much sense fluff-wise, but they help differentiate models and give incentive to move to more expensive and higher-command models, and help make them a little more different from psychic powers than they would be otherwise.

I'd suggest having to order them first thing in the turn, because some of them don't allow you to move. Think of commands similar Grimdark's command phase

I agree, i like it better this way, its just something to keep open.

Thank you :> The reason I put -3 BS is because the system could be well-exploited (in a good way) to squads that may be entering combat soon, or squads that are about to die.

The reason i suggested adding in a range penalty is for exactly that reason, some armies like orks would be minimally affected by such a penalty, and as such might just go ahead and fire away with this order, since they can maximize their shots for minimal penalty, so a range penalty such as may only fire within 12" would make sure that this is a last ditch about to be killed order.

Does that mean you want me to make it stronger? I'd like to keep the Strength boost because its a command that gets people swaggered up and gorilla-like. How are we going to balance it? How about a Weapon Skill decrease, for all their Ork-like rage?
Let's Roll!: The unit receives +1 Fortitude, +2 Mobility, +1 Strength and -2 Weapon Skill. It may not shoot.
Since charging scales off 100% Mobility, +2M would be +4" move. I think a whole 6" is a bit too much.

I thought charging scaled like running, at 50%? And if this was the direction this order took, it would always be used when you wanted to charge an enemy, which isn't really fitting with the idea of the orders. I think something like a quick sprint from one piece of cover to another would make more sense for this order, so something like +2 Morale and +2/+3 Mobility, not allowed to shoot or assault.

As for morale, i liked one of the idea's that we brought up way back in the day. If you lose 25% of a unit, you have to take a morale check, and take a permanent -1 morale penalty. If you fail the morale check, you are shaken, and can move OR shoot, and to get out of shaken status you must pass a morale test on the next activation. If you lose 50% of a unit, you have to take a second morale check, and receive a permanent -2 morale penalty. Should you fail this check, you are considered stunned, and may only respond to assaults, and must pass a morale check next activation to get out of stunned status. Should a unit fall below 75% of its original size, the unit takes a permanent -3 Morale penalty, and must take a morale test. Should they fail this test, they are routed and flee towards the owning players side of the table.

I don't particularly care about the morale status names at this point, but we do need to solidify the mechanics before we worry about anything else

That's why i put the limit at 12" command range, because anything higher than that, and it become meaningless where your Commander is. And the reason i like having command points over flat command amounts assigned to different unit types is because it lets us fine tune the number of orders a model can issue, not only to make sure that they're balanced, but because it provides us as designers a means to push players towards the higher points-cost models. If my little 60 point space marine commander has the same command range and number of orders as space marine captains and chapter masters, theres very little incentive to take one of those higher-cost models instead of him, where as if you have the stats go:

Strike Force Commander: 2 Command Points, 6" Command Range
Captain: 2 Command Points, 12" Range
Chapter Master: 3 command points, 12" range

Then there is good incentive for people to upgrade to the more expensive models, because very few people will be taking them for their direct combat strength.

And no, command ranges don't make much sense fluff-wise, but they help differentiate models and give incentive to move to more expensive and higher-command models, and help make them a little more different from psychic powers than they would be otherwise.

I don't think having a range difference is going to be an incentive to move to better commanders, it just means they're easier to play, which isn't what I want.

Giving them stronger commands is more than enough to encourage players to move to better commanders.

As for command points, I will ask you: do you want commanders to be able to choose from lower pools of command? And will that mean the worst pool will cost 1 point, the medium 2, the better pool 3 etc?

Because that will be extremely hard to balance, because that means the worst commands are twice as bad as the medium commands, and thrice as bad as the good commands!

The reason i suggested adding in a range penalty is for exactly that reason, some armies like orks would be minimally affected by such a penalty, and as such might just go ahead and fire away with this order, since they can maximize their shots for minimal penalty, so a range penalty such as may only fire within 12" would make sure that this is a last ditch about to be killed order.

I don't think we really need a range penalty, I still want to make the mechanics as real as possible; when people are asked to unload their magazine, they would go nuts and fire away, losing a lot of their precision. And obviously they'd have to reload next turn.

I thought charging scaled like running, at 50%? And if this was the direction this order took, it would always be used when you wanted to charge an enemy, which isn't really fitting with the idea of the orders. I think something like a quick sprint from one piece of cover to another would make more sense for this order, so something like +2 Morale and +2/+3 Mobility, not allowed to shoot or assault.

Well, in the secondary phase, you can either run or charge. If you just run it's half your Mobility, if you charge it's all your Mobility.

Let's Roll!: The unit receives +1 Fortitude, +2 Mobility. It may not shoot or charge.

I think 3 Mobility is a bit much, because that would scale into 5/6" extra. Also, if they aren't charging they wouldn't have their morale raised that much.

As for morale, i liked one of the idea's that we brought up way back in the day. If you lose 25% of a unit, you have to take a morale check, and take a permanent -1 morale penalty. If you fail the morale check, you are shaken, and can move OR shoot, and to get out of shaken status you must pass a morale test on the next activation. If you lose 50% of a unit, you have to take a second morale check, and receive a permanent -2 morale penalty. Should you fail this check, you are considered stunned, and may only respond to assaults, and must pass a morale check next activation to get out of stunned status. Should a unit fall below 75% of its original size, the unit takes a permanent -3 Morale penalty, and must take a morale test. Should they fail this test, they are routed and flee towards the owning players side of the table.

I think 25/50/75% divides it up too much. Even in a squad of 10, they're only going to be falling back with less than 2 men, which kinda makes the routing mechanic obsolete (if it's only going to affect squads that are all but dead anyway).

Also, the morale statuses aren't exactly in a hierarchy. Suppressed means they have to keep their heads down and can't really shoot to their full effect, neutralised means they can't do anything - they're surrounded by fire from all sides, and falling back means they've lost almost all hope.

I'm just thinking, with a clear mind: Suppressed and Neutralised have nothing to do with morale! It just means they're pinned down by fire. Falling back means they've lost morale.

This means: do you want a failed morale test to always be fall back? People can start off with a high morale but lose morale according to how much of their squad has died. So the more people that have died, the more likely it is for them to fall back.

This also means that suppressed and neutralised will only happen as a result of massive amounts of fire directed at a unit. It has nothing to do with morale! This would also create a tactical dimension of focussing fire on a few key units to temporarily suppress/neutralise them. What do you think?

having a range difference is going to be an incentive to move to better commanders, it just means they're easier to play

That is an incentive. Being able to affect units further away is a huge bonus. You don't have to be as conservative with your commander this way, and when paired with stronger/more orders, its a great reason to pay more to get a unit that has those capabilities.

Giving them stronger commands is more than enough to encourage players to move to better commanders.
As for command points, I will ask you: do you want commanders to be able to choose from lower pools of command? And will that mean the worst pool will cost 1 point, the medium 2, the better pool 3 etc?

I think a higher level commander should be able to issue the same orders as a sergeant if that was the best call for that moment, but that could be confusing, so im leaning towards your system of them just having higher level commands, and can issue one per turn. My problem is, i think independant characters and other non-squad level commanders should be able to issue orders whenever they want, which would mean they have to be radically different than other orders. I think this could be done, making them much more powerful than normal orders without growing wildly out of control, but we need to work with it to see.

I think 3 Mobility is a bit much, because that would scale into 5/6" extra. Also, if they aren't charging they wouldn't have their morale raised that much.

The difference between order "Levels" should very much not be linear. The strength should come from other ways of deploying them, such as being able issue orders beyond the start of an activation, and hopefully out of that units activation. If that route isnt possible, then if level 1 orders have a "strength" of 1, then level 2 orders should have a strength of 1.5, and level 3 orders a strength of 1.75.

I don't think we really need a range penalty, I still want to make the mechanics as real as possible; when people are asked to unload their magazine, they would go nuts and fire away, losing a lot of their precision. And obviously they'd have to reload next turn.

Yes but we cant just stick to realism, because then we run into situations like Orks right now with snap-shooting, where they may as well run and shoot since it has very little effect on their ability to hit, while it is a massive penalty for the likes of Eldar, Necrons, and Space Marines.

Well, in the secondary phase, you can either run or charge. If you just run it's half your Mobility, if you charge it's all your Mobility.

What is the secondary phase? And what is the difference between running and charging?

Let's Roll!: The unit receives +1 Fortitude, +2 Mobility. It may not shoot or charge.
I think 3 Mobility is a bit much, because that would scale into 5/6" extra. Also, if they aren't charging they wouldn't have their morale raised that much.

Ok sounds good

I'm just thinking, with a clear mind: Suppressed and Neutralised have nothing to do with morale! It just means they're pinned down by fire. Falling back means they've lost morale.
This means: do you want a failed morale test to always be fall back? People can start off with a high morale but lose morale according to how much of their squad has died. So the more people that have died, the more likely it is for them to fall back.
This also means that suppressed and neutralised will only happen as a result of massive amounts of fire directed at a unit. It has nothing to do with morale! This would also create a tactical dimension of focussing fire on a few key units to temporarily suppress/neutralise them. What do you think?

There's a lot of parts to this idea, so lets break it down. I agree that a mechanic where getting a certain number of shots fired at / hits taken is a good idea, lets see where this goes. As for suppression and neutralized not having anything to do with morale, i disagree. While the word Morale may not be the best choice for this stat, its what im holding to right now for simplicity. That mob of orks doesnt care about how many bullets are coming at them while they charge, neither does that hormagaunt squad, or a squad of fearless death company marines. While most models would be affected by the number of shots coming down on them, it cant be an automatic thing, since some units will ignore it more than others.

I think there should be a way for every unit to overcome suppression or whatever, which would most likely take the form of some sort of stat roll, which under the name i'm using right now, is the morale stat. Should penalties be attached to these units for more fire being directed at them? Yes definitely. For example, taking a number of hits equal to the number of models in the squad forces a suppression roll at a -1 morale modifier, and doubling that takes it to a -2 or -3 modifier could be a direction to look into.

I like the idea of tactical focusing of fire not only to kill someone, but to make them unable to hurt you, is great, but it needs to take a substantial amount of fire, i dont want the first squad to fire to suppress the target immediately. Also, maybe an order that lets someone press on and charge despite suppression, because i dont want a lucky activation phase to completely shut down a charging unit too easily.

I think 25/50/75% divides it up too much. Even in a squad of 10, they're only going to be falling back with less than 2 men, which kinda makes the routing mechanic obsolete (if it's only going to affect squads that are all but dead anyway).

That was just an example, all the numbers were just taken from thin air. It was the idea behind it i was trying to convey, but i like your direction better.

That is an incentive. Being able to affect units further away is a huge bonus. You don't have to be as conservative with your commander this way, and when paired with stronger/more orders, its a great reason to pay more to get a unit that has those capabilities.

Yeah but people shouldn't be drawn to commanders simply because you don't have to be as conservative/they're easier to use.

Yes but we cant just stick to realism, because then we run into situations like Orks right now with snap-shooting, where they may as well run and shoot since it has very little effect on their ability to hit, while it is a massive penalty for the likes of Eldar, Necrons, and Space Marines.

We should adhere to realism, because that is what we want the game to be right? Realistic? We should try and fulfill that as much as possible.

I like the idea of tactical focusing of fire not only to kill someone, but to make them unable to hurt you, is great, but it needs to take a substantial amount of fire, i dont want the first squad to fire to suppress the target immediately. Also, maybe an order that lets someone press on and charge despite suppression, because i dont want a lucky activation phase to completely shut down a charging unit too easily.

Of course.

That mob of orks doesnt care about how many bullets are coming at them while they charge, neither does that hormagaunt squad, or a squad of fearless death company marines.

Yes, I think this means while Orks and Tyranids have terrible morale and so can fall back easily, they can't get Suppressed or Neutralised easily.

How about a level system where your commander has a Command Level. Each level grants you access to another command. So the levels would be something like this:

Command Level 1: Let's Roll!
Command Level 2: Take Cover!
Command Level 3: Stay Put!
Command Level 4: Empty The Mag!
Command Level 5: Suppressing Fire!
Command Level 6: Medic!
Command Level 7: Target Acquired!
Command Level 8: Focus!
Command Level 9: Into The Fray!
Command Level 10: Arise!
Command Level 11: ...
Command Level 12: ...

Yeah but people shouldn't be drawn to commanders simply because you don't have to be as conservative/they're easier to use.

Not solely, but it's a factor, just like psychic powers or other special rules. And right now, many pure combat HQ's such as captains, chapter masters, autarchs, etc are less valuable than support HQ's like Librarians, Chaplains, Farseers, etc, since the latter can have a greater effect on more units, and combat HQ's can have a hard time earning their points back. This system lets us bring them back as much more justifiable and reliable units, since they are typically force commanders and strategists on top of direct combat monsters.

We should adhere to realism, because that is what we want the game to be right? Realistic? We should try and fulfill that as much as possible.

I'd rather stick to fun, reliable, balanced mechanics, and Empty the Mag! without a range penalty means it suffers from the same irritations as Snap-shots right now, in that i can have a big squad of lootas moving around and firing ungodly amounts of str 7 shots at 36" range, for virtually no penalty, which would be incredibly frustrating, especially when you add suppression on top of that.

Yes, I think this means while Orks and Tyranids have terrible morale and so can fall back easily, they can't get Suppressed or Neutralised easily.
How about a level system where your commander has a Command Level. Each level grants you access to another command.

Yeah between Mob Rule and Fearless under Synapse, i dont see it being too big a problem, but its something to keep in mind. As for the command levels idea, it feels kinda flimsy, like we'd be trying to justify a Command stat without strong backing of it. Plus then we have the problem of either giving everything just a few command level options, or we restrict some units from using certain orders, which doesn't feel right.

Love the names of Target Acquired!, Focus!, and Into the Fray!. Really cool names, any ideas for mechanics behind them?

Target Acquired! feels like a BS Increaser
Focus! Sounds like something that increases WS and Dexterity
Into the Fray! maybe some sort of assault and charge bonus i guess

To top off your list of orders, maybe make the last 2 choices out of the set of 12 (the 2 highest level orders) be army specific? Idk, could be hard to do or not really suitable, but i think itd be interesting.

Not solely, but it's a factor, just like psychic powers or other special rules.

Yes it's a factor, but it shouldn't be a factor. As in, you shouldn't be drawn to those commanders because of their range and their ease of use.

it suffers from the same irritations as Snap-shots right now, in that i can have a big squad of lootas moving around and firing ungodly amounts of str 7 shots at 36" range, for virtually no penalty, which would be incredibly frustrating, especially when you add suppression on top of that.

Except it doesnt suffer from the same irritations as Snap-shots right now. Who would fire double their shots at such a significant BS increase? Certainly no-one, in normal situations.

Love the names of Target Acquired!, Focus!, and Into the Fray!. Really cool names, any ideas for mechanics behind them?

Ok, time to work on this xD

Command Level 1: Let's Roll!: The unit receives +2 Mobility. It may not shoot.
Command Level 2: Take Cover!: The unit receives +2 Stealth, -1 Dexterity and -2 Ballistic Skill. It may not move.
Command Level 3: Stay Put!: The unit receives +1 Weapon Skill, +1 Dexterity and -1 Ballistic Skill. It may not move.
Command Level 4: Empty The Mag!: The unit receives -3 Ballistic Skill. It may fire double the amount of shots, but may not shoot next turn.
Command Level 5: Suppressing Fire!: The unit receives -2 Ballistic Skill. All shots fired gain the Suppressing special rule.
Command Level 6: Medic!: The unit recovers D3 models at the end of the Secondary Phase. (?)
Command Level 7: Target Acquired!: The unit receives +1 Ballistic Skill. It may not Split Fire.
Command Level 8: Focus!: The unit receives +1 Weapon Skill, +1 Ballistic Skill and -1 Mobility. It gains the Seasoned Marksman special rule.
Command Level 9: Into The Fray!: They unit receives +2 Fortitude, +3 Mobility and +1 Strength. It may not shoot.
Command Level 10: Arise!: The unit receives +1 Strength and +1 Defense. It removes all morale status effects and gains the Feel No Pain special rule.

To top off your list of orders, maybe make the last 2 choices out of the set of 12 (the 2 highest level orders) be army specific? Idk, could be hard to do or not really suitable, but i think itd be interesting.

mmm.....How about we keep the last 2 commands, but some commanders can have their own commands e.g. an Autarch might have one something to do with reserves or somethin.

Thanks by the way, I spent ages trying to find some inspiration for those names >.<

Except it doesnt suffer from the same irritations as Snap-shots right now. Who would fire double their shots at such a significant BS increase? Certainly no-one, in normal situations.

Orks? At BS 2, they wont really care if they drop to BS 1, so long as they can fire more shots. And if they can suppress or neutralize an enemy unit that was going to be a key part of the opponents plan, like a squad of missile launcher devastators for example or a big scary assault squad, they can do so, at up to 36" range. It doesn't matter that they cant fire next turn, they killed enemy models and probably locked down a key unit, so they've served their purpose. You can't have a defensive order that can be used offensively like that, it needs another restriction. And that's just the situations I expect, I guarantee cheese hunters will find ways to abuse this.

I LOVE Arise! Thats a really cool order to use in this system, especially since it looks like it'd be restricted to the highest level models.

Is the suppression special rule just something that lets you suppress units more easily? Sort of a pinning special rule deal, where if you wound a model in the unit, they immediately have to take a suppression test? Could be OP, but well see.

Medic! is way overpowered, people would abuse this to no end. I would run this order over and over on my terminators. Maybe have it be feel no pain or something, but even that's problematic, since FnP(5+) would be crazy strong, while FnP (6+) would be overlooked and not worth the order.

Giving Seasoned Marksman to a unit that takes Focus! seems like its going to cause tons of problems. Yes its a high level order so it'd be harder to abuse, but imagine giving that to units like snipers, rangers, missile launcher devastators, pathfinders, etc. They are going to annihilate anything they set their eyes on, and i don't want the game to devolve into commanders stuck to heavy firing units because they maximize damage that way, and will be slaughtered by the opponents commander in a big scary shooter squad.

I'm still hesitant about putting a strength bonus on Into the Fray! because if that stacks with Furious Charge, its going to unstoppable. Getting a +2 Strength bonus on the charge means that you can potentially go from a 5+ to a 3+, which would put the hurt on anything. I'd say keep the strength bonuses in special rules and not orders, because otherwise your devaluing Furious charge on one side and massive buffing it on the other.

Target Acquired!: The unit receives +1 Ballistic Skill. It may not Split Fire.

Feels a bit weak for how high it's supposed to be, and as for may not split fire, does that mean you agree that that could be done instead of issuing orders? along with the re-roll idea?

Yes it's a factor, but it shouldn't be a factor. As in, you shouldn't be drawn to those commanders because of their range and their ease of use.

Why? We need a way to show that more expensive commanders are actually better than cheaper ones, and this fits the bill, without being ridiculous or complex. And just because it can be done as ease of use, excellent players will still work hard to take every ounce of power of these units by trying to get more models in range of them. And i'm still not on-board with a command stat at this point, its just not something that couldn't be done more smoothly with a table or chart rather than a stat.

Man I'm so glad you could reply before I sleep.

Orks? At BS 2, they wont really care if they drop to BS 1, so long as they can fire more shots.

Yeah but that's not the system. Moving with a Heavy weapon means -3BS (remember you're not supposed to be able to move and fire Heavy weapons anyway!), so an Ork can't move and fire Heavy weapons.

they killed enemy models and probably locked down a key unit, so they've served their purpose. You can't have a defensive order that can be used offensively like that

It's supposed to be used as a last resort, people would rarely use this just because they can.

I LOVE Arise! Thats a really cool order to use in this system, especially since it looks like it'd be restricted to the highest level models.

Indeed :] It sort of feels like you're turning your bog-standard men into half-Necron cyborgs

Is the suppression special rule just something that lets you suppress units more easily? Sort of a pinning special rule deal, where if you wound a model in the unit, they immediately have to take a suppression test? Could be OP, but well see.

Yeah, it would probably suppress people more easily than normal shots, but yeah we gotta balance it obviously.

Medic! is way overpowered, people would abuse this to no end. I would run this order over and over on my terminators. Maybe have it be feel no pain or something, but even that's problematic, since FnP(5+) would be crazy strong, while FnP (6+) would be overlooked and not worth the order.

I put a question mark after it for a reason D:

Giving Seasoned Marksman to a unit that takes Focus! seems like its going to cause tons of problems. Yes its a high level order so it'd be harder to abuse, but imagine giving that to units like snipers, rangers, missile launcher devastators, pathfinders, etc. They are going to annihilate anything they set their eyes on, and i don't want the game to devolve into commanders stuck to heavy firing units because they maximize damage that way, and will be slaughtered by the opponents commander in a big scary shooter squad.

Wait, you know that this is what the special rule actually does:

Seasoned Marksman - A model with this special rule may allocate any wounds it causes in ranged combat however it wishes.

It's just giving precision shots .__.

I'm still hesitant about putting a strength bonus on Into the Fray! because if that stacks with Furious Charge, its going to unstoppable. Getting a +2 Strength bonus on the charge means that you can potentially go from a 5+ to a 3+, which would put the hurt on anything. I'd say keep the strength bonuses in special rules and not orders, because otherwise your devaluing Furious charge on one side and massive buffing it on the other.

I suppose...How about:

Command Level 9: Into The Fray!: They unit receives +2 Fortitude, +3 Mobility and +1 Dexterity. It may not shoot.

I suppose you can justify the Dexterity increase (somewhat).

Feels a bit weak for how high it's supposed to be, and as for may not split fire, does that mean you agree that that could be done instead of issuing orders? along with the re-roll idea?

The reason why it's proportionally weak is because it has close to no downsides. It just increases BS, and this is vital in many situations, and because it's almost universal, it has to be moderate.

Why? We need a way to show that more expensive commanders are actually better than cheaper ones

Yeah, and the way we do that is by giving them BETTER commands, not FURTHER commands. If you don't have to disobey reality, don't.

And i'm still not on-board with a command stat at this point, its just not something that couldn't be done more smoothly with a table or chart rather than a stat.

Me neither, as in command stat determining which powers you can use. So characters would have Character (Command Level X).

I think we need to address something before we go much further, since there's a lot of command ideas floating around.

Right now, i'm in favor of there being different charts for different levels of commanders to use. So a basic chart would be available to all Sergeants, the Veteran Chart would be available to upgraded sergeants and equivalents in other army's, so Exarchs and the like would probably get the veteran chart, and then a leader chart that only the few highest ranking models would get, so warboss's, necron lords, autarchs, captains / chapter master / grand master, ethereal, etc. And on top of this system, i like the idea of sergeant orders being issued at the start of an activation, and commander orders can be issued not only outside of that models activation, but in the opponents turn as well. Both sergeants and higher level commanders should have different number of orders per game turn, and they should have different command ranges.

I like this system for two reasons. One, it's very segmented, so we can set definite limits to the effects orders in each category have. And 2, it lets us show the differences between commanders when the system of these charts doesn't exactly work. For example, a Chaplain is not a force commander, but he does have more experience and authority than a typical veteran sergeant, so he would pick from the Veteran order list, but be able to issue them with a command range of 6". A Strike Force Commander, however, is someone expected to lead troops into battle, and make strategic and tactical decisions, however, he does not stack up to his peers of command, the Captains and Chapter Masters, so he would pick from the Leader Chart, but have a command range of 6" rather than 12" like the other 2.

Command range isn't really the distance they can communicate with, its the amount of the battlefield they are able to comprehend and focus on, and issue orders accordingly, if a realistic approach to this is really necessary.
,
Assuming i understand your command levels right, you mean that a model with a certain command level can issue orders of that level and lower right? The problem i have with this system is that we have 2 options in where to take this. Option one is that we want everything to be able to issue more or less the same orders, which means there are only going to be a couple of these values used. Option two is that we take advantage of the variety this chart presents, but then we have to choose what level certain leader models are, which would not only be a bear to chug through and discuss, but frustrate players, because they don't get to use the whole list of available options while their opponent can.

It's supposed to be used as a last resort, people would rarely use this just because they can.

Players will abuse these systems at the drop of a hat if they think they can get a significant advantage from it. Cheese Hunters will be everywhere, and there have been too many examples of someone finding a way a few rules and units interact in an overpowered fashion to ignore. I don't even play Orks, and i can see that this will be easily abusable by them.

Moving with a Heavy weapon means -3BS

When did this get brought up? And do you mean that a stat can fall below 1? Because if so, then i dont have as much of a problem with it, except now we're essentially shutting down that order for Orks, since they'll never be able to use it, which is problematic in a whole other way.

Wait, you know that this is what the special rule actually does:
Seasoned Marksman - A model with this special rule may allocate any wounds it causes in ranged combat however it wishes.
It's just giving precision shots .__.

Yeah i forgot that snipers got that automatically, but that doesn't change the fact if you give this to a typical squad, they will be able to burn down the most dangerous models in an opponents squad automatically. Plasma Cannons, Power Weapons, Flamers, Sergeants, whatever is the biggest danger to them would be instantly taken down, barring some minor miracle, which would be really frustrating to the opponent player, and probably overpowered to boot.

Command range isn't really the distance they can communicate with, its the amount of the battlefield they are able to comprehend and focus on, and issue orders accordingly, if a realistic approach to this is really necessary.

This is a very good argument. I just want to add, making the ranges into 6/9/12" tiers would make it more varied.

Taking everything you've said into account, I have split it up into tiers. Sergeants would be Level 1. Exarchs and Vet Sergeants would be Level 2. Chaplains, Librarians, any commander that isn't a dedicated strategist would be Level 3. Commanders would be Level 4.

These are issued at the start of the Primary Phase.
Level 1: Let's Roll!: The unit receives +2 Mobility. It may not shoot.
Level 1: Take Cover!: The unit receives +2 Stealth, -1 Dexterity and -2 Ballistic Skill. It may not move.
Level 1: Stay Put!: The unit receives +1 Weapon Skill, +1 Dexterity and -1 Ballistic Skill. It may not move.

These are issued at the start of the Secondary Phase.
Level 2: Empty The Mag!: The unit receives -3 Ballistic Skill. It may fire double the amount of shots, but may not shoot next turn.
Level 2: Suppressing Fire!: The unit receives -2 Ballistic Skill. All shots fired gain the Suppressing special rule.
Level 2: Medic!:

These can be (?)
Level 3: Target Acquired!: The unit receives +1 Ballistic Skill. It may not Split Fire.
Level 3:
Level 3:

These can be issued at any point in the game.
Level 4: Arise!: The unit receives +1 Strength and +1 Defense. It removes all morale status effects and gains the Feel No Pain special rule.
Level 4: Focus!: The unit receives +1 Weapon Skill, +1 Ballistic Skill. It gains the Seasoned Marksman special rule.
Level 4: Into The Fray!: The unit receives +2 Fortitude, +3 Mobility and +1 Dexterity.

Players will abuse these systems at the drop of a hat if they think they can get a significant advantage from it. Cheese Hunters will be everywhere, and there have been too many examples of someone finding a way a few rules and units interact in an overpowered fashion to ignore. I don't even play Orks, and i can see that this will be easily abusable by them.

When did this get brought up? And do you mean that a stat can fall below 1? Because if so, then i dont have as much of a problem with it, except now we're essentially shutting down that order for Orks, since they'll never be able to use it, which is problematic in a whole other way.

How do we solve this then?

Yeah i forgot that snipers got that automatically, but that doesn't change the fact if you give this to a typical squad, they will be able to burn down the most dangerous models in an opponents squad automatically. Plasma Cannons, Power Weapons, Flamers, Sergeants, whatever is the biggest danger to them would be instantly taken down, barring some minor miracle, which would be really frustrating to the opponent player, and probably overpowered to boot.

I know what you mean. I've moved that command up to Level 4, so it shouldn't be that frustrating, because although they might have lost their flamer or something, their commander just wasted one of his valuable skills.

and as for may not split fire, does that mean you agree that that could be done instead of issuing orders?

Forgot to reply to this one, but this is what I've got for Split Fire.

Split Fire: If a model passes an Marksmanship test, it may fire at a target up to 12" away from the unit's original target. No more than a third of a unit has the chance to Split Fire.

This is a very good argument. I just want to add, making the ranges into 6/9/12" tiers would make it more varied.

I've been going back and forth on that idea, i'm just conflicted about it. I think the variety would be great, but deciding which units get the 9" version has been tripping me up. I like the 6" and 12" choice, because its a very flat weak commander, strong commander difference, i just dont know what would get 9". Examples would probably sell me on it, but i don't have any good ones in mind.

Your order chart looks good, but filling in that second highest tier could be tricky, and im not sure its totally necessary, as per my last post.

As for solving that problem, i think a max range solves it, but id like something more fitting. Preventing cheese just means we have to be vigilant about thinking about as many situations with as many units and army's as possible.

I know what you mean. I've moved that command up to Level 4, so it shouldn't be that frustrating, because although they might have lost their flamer or something, their commander just wasted one of his valuable skills.

yeah, it's still just something to keep in mind, since they could potentially issue 2 of those per game turn, which is incredibly strong. Maybe say they can't issue the same order twice in one game turn. Its just dangerous since this would let them snipe the other units leader, denying that squad their orders, espeially since things can die more easily now.

Do we want multiple orders to stack? Or even have the higher ranking orders override the lower level orders when issued?

Split Fire: If a model passes an Marksmanship test, it may fire at a target up to 12" away from the unit's original target. No more than a third of a unit has the chance to Split Fire.

im not sure, split fire is a very powerful ability. I think having it take an order, and maybe make you direct half the unit at the second target, or at a BS penalty or something on top of that would be the way to go.

I've been going back and forth on that idea, i'm just conflicted about it. I think the variety would be great, but deciding which units get the 9" version has been tripping me up. I like the 6" and 12" choice, because its a very flat weak commander, strong commander difference, i just dont know what would get 9". Examples would probably sell me on it, but i don't have any good ones in mind.

Actually I think that if 12" is gonna be the maximum command distance for every commander in the entire galaxy, then I would put it into 2" increments, how's this (obviously subject to change):

6" - Chaplain, Librarian, Farseer, Ethereal (?)
8" - The best of above i.e. named models
10" - Autarch, Captain, Chapter Master, Warboss, Necron Lord
12" - The best of above i.e. named models

yeah, it's still just something to keep in mind, since they could potentially issue 2 of those per game turn, which is incredibly strong. Maybe say they can't issue the same order twice in one game turn. Its just dangerous since this would let them snipe the other units leader, denying that squad their orders, espeially since things can die more easily now. Do we want multiple orders to stack? Or even have the higher ranking orders override the lower level orders when issued?

Let's say a unit can only ever receive one command per turn. As for commanders being able to do more than one command per turn...I'm not sure. It would be realistic but undoubtedly hard to balance.

im not sure, split fire is a very powerful ability. I think having it take an order, and maybe make you direct half the unit at the second target, or at a BS penalty or something on top of that would be the way to go.

Okay:

Level 1: Let's Roll!: The unit receives +2 Mobility. It may not shoot.
Level 1: Take Cover!: The unit receives +2 Stealth, -1 Dexterity and -2 Ballistic Skill. It may not move.
Level 1: Stay Put!: The unit receives +1 Weapon Skill, +1 Dexterity and -2 Ballistic Skill. It may not move.

Level 2: Split Fire!: The unit receives -1 Ballistic Skill. Up to half the squad may shoot at a different target.
Level 2: Suppressing Fire!: The unit receives -2 Ballistic Skill. All shots fired gain the Suppressing special rule.
Level 2: Empty The Mag!: The unit receives -3 Ballistic Skill. It may fire double the amount of shots, but may not shoot next turn.

Level 3: Target Acquired!: The unit receives +1 Ballistic Skill. It may not move.
Level 3: Medic!:
Level 3: Bide!: The unit receives +2 Stealth and +1 Dexterity. It may not move or shoot.

Level 4: Arise!: The unit receives +1 Strength and +1 Defense. It removes all morale status effects and gains the Feel No Pain special rule.
Level 4: Focus!: The unit receives +1 Ballistic Skill and +1 Weapon Skill. It gains the Seasoned Marksman special rule.
Level 4: Into The Fray!: The unit receives +2 Fortitude, +3 Mobility and +1 Dexterity.

Idk...Level 2 just seems to be a Marksmanship Command Pool. What do you think of Bide! in Level 3?

Actually I think that if 12" is gonna be the maximum command distance for every commander in the entire galaxy, then I would put it into 2" increments, how's this (obviously subject to change)

interesting way of going about it, I like it, but play testing is going to have to be the ultimate decider for this one. As for giving commanders only 1 order, im not sure. Its probably the best way to do this system, but id really like for them to be able to issue 2 of the lower tier orders, though i dont see a great system of doing so without a complete overhaul of the orders. Maybe a unit may issue 2 orders from a chart 2 command levels under their own.

And I think we need some sort of standardization amongst the orders of different tiers. For example,

Level 1) stat bonus of 2 in one stat, drop of 3 total in any other stats or group of stats. Must select either may not move or may not shoot.
Level 2) stat bonus of 2 total, drop of 2 total in any other stat or group of stats,must select may not shoot or may not move.
Level 4) stat bonus of 2 total

These are very rough numbers on a rough idea, but i think getting it a bit more standardized would make it a bit more balanced. We can always play around with them more, but having a core we know and stick too would probably be best.

.Level 2 just seems to be a Marksmanship Command Pool. What do you think of Bide! in Level 3?

im not sure, id like for there to be at least one Melee, one shooting, and one movement order in each set, so we need to break that up more, but thats not to say each order set can't have a "specialty" of some sort, where maybe level 2 just has more shooting, while level 1 has more movement/stealth, while 3 and 4 are more about morale and assault.

interesting way of going about it, I like it, but play testing is going to have to be the ultimate decider for this one. As for giving commanders only 1 order, im not sure. Its probably the best way to do this system, but id really like for them to be able to issue 2 of the lower tier orders, though i dont see a great system of doing so without a complete overhaul of the orders. Maybe a unit may issue 2 orders from a chart 2 command levels under their own.

My gut feeling is that there's no point going into all that weird detail like 2 orders from a chart 2 command levels under their own, it's all much more tidier when it's just one order.

These are very rough numbers on a rough idea, but i think getting it a bit more standardized would make it a bit more balanced. We can always play around with them more, but having a core we know and stick too would probably be best.

I know what you are trying to do, but what I want to keep, is the essence of the command. No two commands are going to ever fit into that template, and if they did, then it would be boring. As long as we make sure that each command is naturally disadvantageous, then the objective has been captured.

im not sure, id like for there to be at least one Melee, one shooting, and one movement order in each set, so we need to break that up more, but thats not to say each order set can't have a "specialty" of some sort, where maybe level 2 just has more shooting, while level 1 has more movement/stealth, while 3 and 4 are more about morale and assault.

I know I want each order to be unique, so I don't want the higher pools to be just a better clone of the lower ones. I want the players to actually feel like they're giving the command, and their boys are being affected correctly by them. But I also want the pools to have a variety of orders.

My herded feelings: Each pool has 5 commands. These commands are:

2 shooting commands
1 assault command
2 unique commands

with the last pool not following this rule.

So, smoothening the data further:

Level 1: Split Fire!: The unit receives -1 Ballistic Skill. Up to half the squad may shoot at a different target.
Level 1: Overwatch!: The unit receives -1 Ballistic skill. All shots fired gain the Suppressing special rule. It may not move.
Level 1: Let's Roll!: The unit receives +1 Fortitude and +2 Mobility. It may not shoot.
Level 1: Take Cover!: The unit receives +2 Stealth, -1 Dexterity and -2 Ballistic Skill. It may not move.
Level 1: Stay Put!: The unit receives +1 Weapon Skill, +1 Dexterity and -2 Ballistic Skill. It may not move.

Level 2: Target Acquired!: The unit receives +1 Ballistic Skill. It may not move.
Level 2: Empty The Mag!: The unit receives -2 Ballistic Skill. It may fire double the amount of shots, but may not shoot next turn.
Level 2: Raid!: The unit receives +1 Mobility, +1 Weapon Skill and +1 Dexterity. It may not shoot.
Level 2: Sit Tight!: The unit receives +3 Stealth, +1 Dexterity and +1 Fortitude. It may not move or shoot.
Level 2: Flank!: The unit receives +2 Mobility and +1 Stealth. It may not shoot but gains the Move Through Cover special rule.

Level 3: Focus!: The unit receives +1 Ballistic Skill and +1 Weapon Skill. It gains the Seasoned Marksman special rule.
Level 3: Find The Mark!: The unit gains the Sharpshooter special rule. It may not move.
Level 3: Into The Fray!: The unit receives +3 Mobility, +1 Dexterity and +2 Fortitude.
Level 3: Arise!: The unit receives +1 Strength and +1 Defense. It removes all morale status effects and gains the Feel No Pain special rule.
Level 3: Lionheart: The unit receives +1 Strength and +1 Attacks. It gains the Fearless special rule.

Yus, Sharpshooter is the one with rerolls to hit

My gut feeling is that there's no point going into all that weird detail like 2 orders from a chart 2 command levels under their own, it's all much more tidier when it's just one order.

Yeah thats how i felt about it too, but itd be nice to work that in somehow.

My herded feelings: Each pool has 5 commands. These commands are:
2 shooting commands
1 assault command
2 unique commands
with the last pool not following this rule.
So, smoothening the data further:

My initial reaction is that 5 orders is a bit much, as until players get really involved they'll have to keep a list on hand, or keep referencing. That being said, i really like how that order list is turning out.

Some of the newer ones like Raid!, Sit Tight!, and Flank! are really cool. Im still worried about Empty the Mag!, Focus!, and Find the Mark!. At only 1 order per activation for the last two, i don't think it'll be TOO big a deal, but i think playtesting will show we need to tone it down some, similarly to Empty the Mag!, but lets leave them as is for now and see how it works out.

We do need to determine how to demonstrate a particular command range however. Is it just going to be something like Independant Character (Command Level 3, 8") or something similar?

Ok so so far we've covered weapons, stat changes, morale, orders, changes to the FoC system, changes to initiative, Combination of toughness and armor into defense, the addition of dexterity and stealth, psychic dueling, some special rules, some units, suppression, neutralization, and routing... Is there anything else really pressing to get to before we start doing some preliminary playtesting?

Eventually id like to get to fine-tuning a points formula for deciding how much a model/unit should cost, but thats not a critical issue right now, since we can just guesstimate off current unit costs what the overwhelming majority of units should cost.

something like Independant Character (Command Level 3, 8") or something similar?

Yep

Is there anything else really pressing to get to before we start doing some preliminary playtesting?

The turn system? Terrain? Deployment?

Terrain and deployment rules are still extraneous elements at this level. We need to get down to unit vs unit levels of testing, a couple of units on each side max, to see how having all these new rules and systems work together at the smallest of scales. Having some terrain in these samples is crucial, but any sort of official policy beyond light cover, heavy cover, and area terrain , i dont know if we need much more information than that right now. So set light cover (smoke, bush, fence, etc) at +1 stealth, heavy cover at +1 Stealth, +2? Defense, and typical area terrain rules, saying theyre light cover i guess, save for ruins.

Did we ever agree on how reserves should be brought in? I'm still a fan of sacrificing the first activation of a players activation turn to bring a unit in from reserves, with a limit of 2 or 3 units per game turn.

As for the turn system, we wanted to use the unit-by-unit activation system from the warpath system i brought up right?

So something like at the beginning of each game turn, both players roll a dice. The player with the highest value takes the first activation turn. During this activation turn, the player may select and activate one unit, and proceed through the 5? Phases with it (Command, Movement, Shooting, Assault, Resolution). After this unit has completed it's resolution phase, the owning player may roll a D6, and on a 3+, may activate a second unit of their choosing. Upon this unit's completion of its resolution phase, the player may roll a D6 again, and on a 6+, they may select and activate a third unit. Upon having their third unit complete it's resolution phase, or after failing or forfeiting an activation roll, the next player begins their activation phase, and proceeds exactly as the first player did during their own activation phase. The players alternate activation phases until all units on the board have been activated. After all units have been activated, the next game turn begins, and players roll off to determine who takes the first activation turn in the new game turn.

Let's not rush into this, the turn system is one of the fundamental mechanics and I want to get it flawless.

For the warpath system, what happens if you forget which units you've used and haven't used?

I can't help but want a bit of originality...Your warpath system is good, but how can we get it....more realistic. That's what I love! Undoubtedly there has to be some sort of turn aspect to it, but how can we entangle it so much (without losing control) so that it feels like you're in a battle, a real battle, with as close to real space and time interactions as possible. I know I'm going all corny but the game has to be utterly indulging to call it a mission accomplished, and I also don't really want to cut corners by outright copying warpath, as much as I like that idea.

Hi folks,
I have been working away from home for a week.(Stupid service engineer went on holiday, leaving me to cover the ref -fit on off site . )

Having skimmed through the last weeks worth of posts, I have ONE MAIN CONCERN.

You appear to be following 40k influence of over complication in the rules to make things sound cool to sell minatures..
EG the same in game effect has lots of different names JUST FOR THE SAKE OF SOUNDING DIFFERENT!

Could we just start at the beginning , with basic game turn structure and mechanic.
Then cover basic damage resolution .
Then basic morale effects.
Then see if we can include a suitable command mechanic into the morale and or game turn structure.

Looking at other rule sets for influence it seems much easier to cover all the intended game play of 40k +extra game play , without the 'fussiness' of current 40k rules writing.

I know some people like the 'chrome'. But can we get the basics down before we end up with all 'shine' and no substance.

If we decide on alternating unit activation or alternating phases first.
(We can keep the order counters we discussed earlier as place markers and remove them if they are not needed after play testing.)

Then look at damage resolution methods , and then morale and command.

Oh hey Lanrak you're alive

the same in game effect has lots of different names JUST FOR THE SAKE OF SOUNDING DIFFERENT!

It's not different, it's fabulous

Could we just start at the beginning , with basic game turn structure and mechanic.
Then cover basic damage resolution .
Then basic morale effects.
Then see if we can include a suitable command mechanic into the morale and or game turn structure.

Sure we can!

Basic game turn structure and mechanic: We've just started working on it.
Basic damage resolution: Use intuition.
Basic morale effects: Half completed, just need to clarify and elaborate and it's done.
Suitable command mechanic: Prototyped, ready for use.

I know some people like the 'chrome'. But can we get the basics down before we end up with all 'shine' and no substance.

The chrome finish is on sale right now, we should buy as much of it before the sale ends.
We have some great ideas right now, we should refine them before they go stale.

We can keep the order counters we discussed earlier as place markers and remove them if they are not needed after play testing.

I wanna try and make this work without counters.