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Dark Severance wrote:
What are you basing your figures on that determines "not a reasonable costing even for China"? .

That was based on their original claim that they were going to be producing in HIPS.


I notice that the Kickstarter page has been edited to remove the reference to polystyrene, but there doesn't appear to be anything in their updates actually telling people that the material has changed.

 insaniak wrote:

Dark Severance wrote:
What are you basing your figures on that determines "not a reasonable costing even for China"? .

That was based on their original claim that they were going to be producing in HIPS.

I notice that the Kickstarter page has been edited to remove the reference to polystyrene, but there doesn't appear to be anything in their updates actually telling people that the material has changed.

That makes sense. They only stated in "Yeah, that was pulled down yesterday when I found it...Calling it polystyrene was my mistake. The manufacture described it like polystyrene and just kept calling it by that name. Sorry for the confusion there.".

That is the only reason I am guessing it is Trollcast is because of the statement, Ed usually describes Trollcast as "a custom mix containing high impact polystyrene, and brings all the benefits of plastic production and quality (cheap, strong, fast production) without the initial high cost of tooling up traditional plastic injection machines (which can run into thousands of dollars!).". However we are all waiting on the response to the question at this point though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Artemis Black wrote:
To drag it back no topic, these are quite small aren't they? It's difficult with the imperial measurements and the big bases but they look 30mm tall at best, to top of head. Space Marines are around 33 to top of head?

It is 1.7" to the eyes (including the base), which makes it 43mm to the eyes with the base. The base is about .6", making it 15mm. The figure itself to the eyes (without the base) is roughly 28mm, 30mm to the top of head.

Dark Severance wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

Dark Severance wrote:
What are you basing your figures on that determines "not a reasonable costing even for China"? .

That was based on their original claim that they were going to be producing in HIPS.

I notice that the Kickstarter page has been edited to remove the reference to polystyrene, but there doesn't appear to be anything in their updates actually telling people that the material has changed.

That makes sense. They only stated in "Yeah, that was pulled down yesterday when I found it...Calling it polystyrene was my mistake. The manufacture described it like polystyrene and just kept calling it by that name. Sorry for the confusion there.".

That is the only reason I am guessing it is Trollcast is because of the statement, Ed usually describes Trollcast as "a custom mix containing high impact polystyrene, and brings all the benefits of plastic production and quality (cheap, strong, fast production) without the initial high cost of tooling up traditional plastic injection machines (which can run into thousands of dollars!).". However we are all waiting on the response to the question at this point though.

Sorry, missed your question as we were posting at the same time, but yeah the answer above was correct

If it is trollcast then if I was Ed I'd ask them to amend the pie graph simply because it gives the impression that 20% of what they have made will be broken by the amount they have set aside for damages! If I'm pushing a new material that's the last impression I'd want to be made.

Plus I'm of the opinion they have made up that pie graph so altering it wouldn't mean anything anyway)

Dark Severance wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

Artemis Black wrote:
To drag it back no topic, these are quite small aren't they? It's difficult with the imperial measurements and the big bases but they look 30mm tall at best, to top of head. Space Marines are around 33 to top of head?

It is 1.7" to the eyes (including the base), which makes it 43mm to the eyes with the base. The base is about .6", making it 15mm. The figure itself to the eyes (without the base) is roughly 28mm, 30mm to the top of head.

Yeah that's what I got too, that is smaller than they said. Maybe they ballsed up the 3d printing? They're going to be a bit small for guys in powered armour imo, especially if they are using Trolcast and shrinkageis still an issue.

 Artemis Black wrote:
If it is trollcast then if I was Ed I'd ask them to amend the pie graph simply because it gives the impression that 20% of what they have made will be broken by the amount they have set aside for damages! If I'm pushing a new material that's the last impression I'd want to be made.

Plus I'm of the opinion they have made up that pie graph so altering it wouldn't mean anything anyway)

I don't think they completely made it up. But I do believe they put too much into it that didn't' need to be in it. Molds, Damages, Manufacturing should of been combined. Shipping is usually part of fulfillment, at least it should be. I'm not sure what they are considering marketing either and not sure why they would include taxes in the total as well. It honestly looks like they used one of those Kickstarter generators that can help you figure out your costs and what ultimately your fund goal should be.

 Artemis Black wrote:
Yeah that's what I got too, that is smaller than they said. Maybe they ballsed up the 3d printing? They're going to be a bit small for guys in powered armour imo, especially if they are using Trolcast and shrinkageis still an issue.

That is unfortunately one of the main issues with using 3D printing for prototyping. It does work to make sure you have the details and size you want. However you also have to adjust the 3D models to print at a slightly larger size to adjust for shrinkage when you go to production. Hopefully when they create their masters they take that into account.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Has anyone asked Ed if he can confirm or deny TF's involvement?

Hey guys,

I did reach out to Ed about this and I think it's okay for me to post just to stop the rumor mill from running.

Yes, WarPrime reached out to Ed, and Ed said they could talk about it but that he was too busy right now to do so, which he definitely, definitely is . Those guys at Trollforged are machines and are cranking out a ton of miniatures right now!

So, basically, in my opinion this whole discussion is pretty much premature. Lots of people reach out to various companies about getting their stuff made. With this long of a lead time, most companies will consider it. But there's not a contract in place, and Trollforged is not "connected" to this project... WarPrime just reached out to them for an initial contact.

So... honestly, there's no real point in considering the ins and outs of Trollforged's material / process in this case. As I said, they're casting up a ton of stuff right now for existing projects, and this is really far out. Just because someone reaches out to them, doesn't mean they'll end up working together... it just means they reached out to them. Honestly, a similar thing happened with Imbrian Arts... a company can list whoever they like as their supplier on Kickstarter, but that doesn't really mean anything since as we know backers are not shareholders and have no say if the supplier is changed. Trollforged isn't committed here... it's just a possibility.

In the end, I think it's all moot because I don't think this will fund. There are so many red flags on this campaign that it's a bit ridiculous!

 RiTides wrote:
In the end, I think it's all moot because I don't think this will fund. There are so many red flags on this campaign that it's a bit ridiculous!

I don't know man, i mean they did get 25% funded within the first two days...

 OnePageAnon wrote:

 RiTides wrote:
In the end, I think it's all moot because I don't think this will fund. There are so many red flags on this campaign that it's a bit ridiculous!

I don't know man, i mean they did get 25% funded within the first two days...

I see... the problem is that you're using common sense. Practical experience shows that minis games and lines that don't immediately fund end up stalling and frequently backsliding in the midpoint lull and then get cancelled. This even happens to campaigns that do immediately fund that don't answer important questions about scale, cost, and materials but instead brush them off.

Dark Severance wrote:

 Artemis Black wrote:
To drag it back no topic, these are quite small aren't they? It's difficult with the imperial measurements and the big bases but they look 30mm tall at best, to top of head. Space Marines are around 33 to top of head?

It is 1.7" to the eyes (including the base), which makes it 43mm to the eyes with the base. The base is about .6", making it 15mm. The figure itself to the eyes (without the base) is roughly 28mm, 30mm to the top of head.

Minor correction: I have the Secret Weapon Miniatures bases they're using, and they're 7-8mm tall.

 Tannhauser42 wrote:

Dark Severance wrote:

 Artemis Black wrote:
To drag it back no topic, these are quite small aren't they? It's difficult with the imperial measurements and the big bases but they look 30mm tall at best, to top of head. Space Marines are around 33 to top of head?

It is 1.7" to the eyes (including the base), which makes it 43mm to the eyes with the base. The base is about .6", making it 15mm. The figure itself to the eyes (without the base) is roughly 28mm, 30mm to the top of head.

Minor correction: I have the Secret Weapon Miniatures bases they're using, and they're 7-8mm tall.

That's what I thought. Dark Severance's guesses looked off to me. Mini looks to be around 1.5" in pic with 1/4" base, which would match up to the 32mm top of head from the other graphic posted. A bit tough to tell exactly due to camera angle and mini vs tape position.

If Ed said no contract with TF, any chance they are dealing with defiance? I haven't seen the creator say not defiance, which was asked a few times.

 Tannhauser42 wrote:

Dark Severance wrote:

 Artemis Black wrote:
To drag it back no topic, these are quite small aren't they? It's difficult with the imperial measurements and the big bases but they look 30mm tall at best, to top of head. Space Marines are around 33 to top of head?

It is 1.7" to the eyes (including the base), which makes it 43mm to the eyes with the base. The base is about .6", making it 15mm. The figure itself to the eyes (without the base) is roughly 28mm, 30mm to the top of head.

Minor correction: I have the Secret Weapon Miniatures bases they're using, and they're 7-8mm tall.

It is hard to say if the base is 5/16" or 6/16" given the picture. I did do my conversion wrong though. It would make the base 7.9mm - 9mm probably depending on the base. Some of the bases do look like they would be 7mm while some of the rubble, depending on placement would be higher.

The complete figure, including the base, is definitely 1.5" (not 1.7", was reading the tape measure wrong), which makes it 38mm tall. My math was wrong, but since it was all based on the same measurement when I translated it from inches to mm it still is correct. If we say the base was 7-8mm tall, it would still make the figure 30mm to the top of the head, the figure is still 28 mm to the eyes (without the base).

winterwolf wrote:


If Ed said no contract with TF, any chance they are dealing with defiance? I haven't seen the creator say not defiance, which was asked a few times.

It was asked in this thread some time ago and the creator said that he didn't even know who they were... take that as you will.

Latest Update: "We have never spoken with nor are we working with Defiance. Our Manufacture is working with multiple Kickstarters and asks that we do not mention them by name. We have agreed and will not break that promise."

Here is a general question to everyone, something that I have never understood. In the board gaming industry, manufacturers are known. If I wanted to know who ZMan Games was using to manufacturer X product, they would let me know. I've never had an issue finding out who does what and whom to contact. They do that because if the manufacturer they work with gets more business, ultimately long-term wise their own manufacturing costs go down because of it. It also makes sure that is someone did a bad job, someone else doesn't end up using them.

With miniatures manufacturers everyone protects their source like they are the city of gold. With the exception of a couple smaller manufacturers and companies, most companies won't give you specifics on who they outsource or who does their manufacturing. I never understood why. Are they afraid someone will take their spot in the queue or that somehow their prices will start to go up or is it that they few if they got a good deal, someone else will get a good deal? It is such a different market than board games, even if you compare it to video games, miniatures games is in their own little market with their own set of sub-rules.

I think a lot of them are just like when someone asks for something 'for a friend'.

But in this case, it is another way of saying, "We don't really know yet."

Maybe.

that is.........odd........

I dunno, I've never had trouble getting the names of factories before, and I'll gladly share the names of the companies we outsource various things to.

 Cyporiean wrote:
I dunno, I've never had trouble getting the names of factories before, and I'll gladly share the names of the companies we outsource various things to.

Mantic will only say they outsource to China and responded with "I'm afraid we cannot divulge the name of the company.". There are similar responses from Megacon Games (MERC) and depending on the CoolMini project they will give a similar response as well.

Dark Severance wrote:

 Cyporiean wrote:
I dunno, I've never had trouble getting the names of factories before, and I'll gladly share the names of the companies we outsource various things to.

Mantic will only say they outsource to China and responded with "I'm afraid we cannot divulge the name of the company.". There are similar responses from Megacon Games (MERC) and depending on the CoolMini project they will give a similar response as well.

I got the name of Mantic's Chinese company awhile back, but don't remember it off the top of my head.. If I wasn't just on my phone this week I'd look through my emails.

WOW!

Very clearly I have been away too long. The rumor mill got you guys whipped into a frenzy.

A few things I will try to address:

The ruler: Yes...I know people want to see my miniatures standing right next to a GW mini. Based on all the opinion I got here in this thread (and on BoLS) the frequent comments about getting sued made me a bit more cautious. I didn't think slapping a picture of a GW product on my KS page was a very good idea. I have seen some other KS do it, but they didn't have Sci-fi games with men in powered armor so their risk was a lot less.

Video Games: Yeah...we want to make a video game set in this universe. We built a prototype of War Prime with low-poly (2000polys) models for Tablets. The estimate to get the full game made and brought to development would have cost in excess of $500,000US. I was no comfortable coming onto Kickstarter and asking for half a million dollars. So I thought I would start small. Build a real miniatures game. Build a foundation. A fan base. I guess I am still a romantic at heart and believe that if you are passionate, and honest about something. People will get behind you and help you build it. I am not trying to match GW quality. They have 30 years on me. So the only way I can compete is do something they can't. Make some cool miniatures for a great price.

I am starting to think I was wrong. Maybe I should just be greedy and only care about the money. Charging you $30 for less than $3 worth of plastic.

The Plastic: I am sure it will get posted up here soon but I thought I would post the latest Update on the KS page so you hear it from me:

=========================================================
My dear backers,

First let me say how thankful I am for all the support and kind words I have received so far. And to be so far along in such a short time is huge! Kicktraq currently has us trending to succeed at $133k. That is amazing and I thank you.

Unfortunately we are stalled because of some issues that have come up. I have made a promise of transparency and informing you of any and all issues that come up. Well it pains me to say that I made a mistake when I built this Kickstarter Campaign.

My original plans to use a manufacturing company in China would have cost a lot more upfront in molds ($4000 a pop) and shipping, but very little for the plastic. But the company was not forthcoming with the type of plastic they used. And when at last it was revealed they used PVC, it was two weeks from our launch date. This left scrambling to find another manufacturer.

I spoke with a few and found one that convinced me they could handle our estimated volume and timeline. In our discussions this manufacturer said they have a custom made polystyrene “like” material that is spun-cast. I was elated. A company in the USA that makes polystyrene miniatures….awesome. (NOTE: A few days into our dealings I had missed where said its “like” polystyrene, and I am still calling polystyrene).

The cost per miniature was a lot higher but the molds were a lot less. This allowed me to bring my original target of $60K for the first human army down to $40k (in hindsight I should have made this $39k to avoid the obvious jokes that have been made).

Well day one of the Kickstarter and people are asking what the plastic is….I have listed on the Kickstarter page very clearly. Polystyrene. In bold! Someone on Facebook asks the same question. I respond with "Its Polystyrene"...proud that I am giving the people what they want. His response was “BS” instantly making me question if my information is accurate. I contacted the manufacturer who confirmed my dread: “It's a resin-material not styrene. I think there was a misunderstanding there. It's rigid but semi flexible. Feels like injection plastic. people always think it is because of that”.

FUUUuuuuu…..

I removed the reference as fast as I could (sometime during day two). I have been trying to relay the correct information ever since. This was not a deliberate attempt to mislead but a simple misunderstanding on my part.

I still believe the quality material the manufacture will deliver will be very good. I am also confident that we can handle any and all problems that come up, as long as we continue to have the support of our backers.

I am sure that this will affect some of your decisions to back our project and I fully understand. You have my deep and sincere apologies. I hope you will continue to follow us on Facebook, Kickstarter, and our newsletter, to keep an eye on our progress. And when we have won back your trust, I hope you will return.

--Eric
=========================================================

I am just a game maker trying to do what I think would be cool. I love miniatures. I love tabletop wargaming. I love sci-fi. I have spent all of my savings and racked up my credit cards to get to this point. Should I have waited a bit longer to get things more solidified? Yeah. But I am out of time and money. If I didn't launch the KS then I wouldn't get to keep working on it, and it would go into the pile of other games I hope to one day have the time and money to build.

If you don't like the designs. Don't back it. You think we can't deliver. Don't back it. You think Im an ass-hole who is only trying to "cash in on the miniatures market". Don't back it. It's as simple as that. But I have been nothing but open and honest. My email is easy to find. eric@kingmakergames.com I am always willing to talk and share my thoughts and ideas. It seems I have had a few conversations with people on here who thought what I said was a "Joke" and "face palm" worthy. But rather than talking to me about it they ran off here to the rumor mill to stir the gak. I thank you for the same trust and honesty I shared with you.

For those of you have have backed and supported me and my grand idea of creating some affordable miniatures. With every fiber of my being, I thank you. With your help we can prove everyone else wrong. The little guy can stand up to the big guy. We can shrug off the insults and verbal oppression. We can build a new universe that at least has some ray of hope no matter how small. And we can show that greed does not have to the be basis of all business.

Thank you.

Are you sure you aren't dealing with Kevin Reidy or one of his friends?

Remind me, everyone: who else was part of the Defiance shell-game, again?

It's Tony Reidy isn't it? And on page 2, the creator has already stated he's not. Otoh, that is just his word and people do like to speculate.

As for this project. Seriously, you guys should have considered just producing 1 set of miniatures first before launching the KS. This is way too ambitious a KS and 40k is a lot to give to an unproven manufacturer. Instead of producing marines + heavy support team + walker, maybe you should have just produced a line of vanilla marines first

Tony Reidy did have a team of people working for him, and I doubt his company uses the name "Defiance Games" these days.

It's just very suspicious.

I recommend not handing over any money to the manufacturer until you've talked to previous established customers of theirs really. Don't become like Torn Armor

Eric,

I urge you to learn about plastic molding and figure out the pros and cons of various materials and molding processes before you end up either being taken for a ride or taking your backers for a ride. It's clear you have some very talented artists and a lot of vision and hopes for this project, but it's equally clear that you simply do not know how to design for manufacture - the fact that the material is still up in the air makes it a moot point because without knowing the final material you simply CAN'T design for manufacture.

If you're going with Trollforged, you need to lock down a manufacturing contract quickly, and figure out what the material can and cannot do. Then you can have your sculptors design accordingly. If you are NOT going with Trollforged, you're going to get out of your depth quickly. Dealing with random/shady companies in China without feet on the ground will end in disaster; you need a procurement professional who preferably has experience in both plastic injection molding and quality assurance to make sure that you are
a) not getting ripped off on molding and part-prices,
b) working with a manufacturer who can give adequate feedback on whether or not your product will actually cast (and helping you fix the issues when it doesn't rather than disappearing with your money)
c) not getting substandard product when the tooling is finished
d) not going to end up with a sudden price increase when the factory learns of your success on Kickstarter

You should not have launched the Kickstarter till you had all of these details locked down. It was premature and you run a serious risk of either non-fulfillment or enormous disappointment due to rushing into a relationship with a manufacturer whose vision is not aligned with yours.

Source: I'm an engineer by background and I manage a team of supplier quality engineers and global commodity managers.

Manufacturers not to use in China. Panda. WGF. Whomever Mantic is using.

I canceled my pledge the other day just due to the issue of a bit vague regarding the manufacturer, more as in it doesn't seem locked down.

I am not too fussed what miniatures are made out of as I am a pretty experienced hobbyist and can fix most issues on any model.

I just feel this seems to have an element of the Rick proestly GoT kickstarter that it had nothing on hand to show off and after a couple of weeks it became clear their ideas far outstretched what KS backers usually expect up front, i.e. physical models and examples of definitive plans\timetables.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Tony Reidy did have a team of people working for him, and I doubt his company uses the name "Defiance Games" these days.

It's just very suspicious.

Obviously, you've mentioned Reidy like 5 times in this thread.


@ Eric,

Don't get down. The internet is 90% trolls it seems like. While there are some valid concerns about your project, I for one would love Cheap: The Marines to come to life. However..

THIS..

I am starting to think I was wrong. Maybe I should just be greedy and only care about the money. Charging you $30 for less than $3 worth of plastic.

..sounds both defeatist and whiny, and does not incur much confidence among potential backers.

I have supported your project, and hope to see something great come from your lizard-orcs and humans!

Just saw this. I like the miniature designs and I really like the idea of there being more affordable options in order to create a little competition in this market, so I've made a pledge. It's actually more for the principle of the thing than for the minis, so I won't be too put out if it doesn't work out.

 WarPrime wrote:
WOW!

Very clearly I have been away too long. The rumor mill got you guys whipped into a frenzy.

A few things I will try to address:

The ruler: Yes...I know people want to see my miniatures standing right next to a GW mini. Based on all the opinion I got here in this thread (and on BoLS) the frequent comments about getting sued made me a bit more cautious. I didn't think slapping a picture of a GW product on my KS page was a very good idea. I have seen some other KS do it, but they didn't have Sci-fi games with men in powered armor so their risk was a lot less.

If GW would sue you, it wouldn't be because you posted a comparison on your Kickstarter. They can compare for themselves...

 WarPrime wrote:
But rather than talking to me about it they ran off here to the rumor mill to stir the gak.

I think that people are posting on here because its a public space where you guys have already been talking to the community, and they don't need to back the project to be able to comment. If the kickstarter page had an open forum i am sure people would comment on there.

 WarPrime wrote:
If you don't like the designs. Don't back it. You think we can't deliver. Don't back it. You think Im an ass-hole who is only trying to "cash in on the miniatures market". Don't back it.

It also seems that you are misunderstanding what the community is saying to you here, and are just labeling people on here as "haters" to dismiss. If you want a successful kickstarter you have to earn the trust of your backers through hard facts and be open to criticism. The reason why you see so much skepticism is because you have not provided the information that people require to trust you. This is not people being "haters", this is people trying to understand if it is worth investing in the future of this project.

Once you have proved beyond reasonable doubt that you actually have a great project on your hands that will deliver quality miniatures on time, then you will get nothing but praise.

 WarPrime wrote:
I am starting to think I was wrong. Maybe I should just be greedy and only care about the money. Charging you $30 for less than $3 worth of plastic.

It is this kind of attitude that is raising eyebrows over here.

Oh, and the fact that there are a ton of spelling mistakes all over the kickstarter (including misspelling your own e-mail address) also doesn't incite much confidence...

OK, I'm being very straight forward here, so if you don't want to read, just don't click on the spoiler.

angryboy2k wrote:
Eric,

I urge you to learn about plastic molding and figure out the pros and cons of various materials and molding processes before you end up either being taken for a ride or taking your backers for a ride. It's clear you have some very talented artists and a lot of vision and hopes for this project, but it's equally clear that you simply do not know how to design for manufacture - the fact that the material is still up in the air makes it a moot point because without knowing the final material you simply CAN'T design for manufacture.

If you're going with Trollforged, you need to lock down a manufacturing contract quickly, and figure out what the material can and cannot do. Then you can have your sculptors design accordingly. If you are NOT going with Trollforged, you're going to get out of your depth quickly. Dealing with random/shady companies in China without feet on the ground will end in disaster; you need a procurement professional who preferably has experience in both plastic injection molding and quality assurance to make sure that you are
a) not getting ripped off on molding and part-prices,
b) working with a manufacturer who can give adequate feedback on whether or not your product will actually cast (and helping you fix the issues when it doesn't rather than disappearing with your money)
c) not getting substandard product when the tooling is finished
d) not going to end up with a sudden price increase when the factory learns of your success on Kickstarter

You should not have launched the Kickstarter till you had all of these details locked down. It was premature and you run a serious risk of either non-fulfillment or enormous disappointment due to rushing into a relationship with a manufacturer whose vision is not aligned with yours.

Source: I'm an engineer by background and I manage a team of supplier quality engineers and global commodity managers.

This.