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MWHistorian wrote: Rumors are that Infinity's Operation Ice Storm is outselling 7th edition. I pre-ordered it and didn't buy 7th edition. Anyone else?
I'm waiting for the new Inf main rulebook and I have no intention of buying 7th edition. If I needed the starter box, I'd 100% purchase.
This^^
I just won't buy the starter box because I don't play any of those factions and the terrain is going to be released separately. But I'll 100% buy the 3rd edition rulebook when it comes out, even if the rules are free.
It helped that I play Nomads and that I really want that limited edition corporate figure with the Ghost in the Shell briefcase gun.
Also, check out my history blog: Minimum Wage Historian, a fun place to check out history that often falls between the couch cushions.
Some small city in nowhere, Illinois,United States
To mirror MWHistorians thoughts a bit too, I play PanO and was looking to start up a second faction as well. Also helped that I was intrugued by the father-knight as well and I wanted it (not sure if the knight will get his own stats. If not, I can just run him as any old knight). Hope to get the CSU with my pre-order since it is a kick-ass model.
The obligatory non-40K/non-Warmahordes player in the forum.
Hobby Goals and Resolution of 2017: Paint at least 95% of my collection (even if getting new items). Buy small items only at 70% complete.
Tanakosyke22 wrote: To mirror MWHistorians thoughts a bit too, I play PanO and was looking to start up a second faction as well. Also helped that I was intrugued by the father-knight as well and I wanted it (not sure if the knight will get his own stats. If not, I can just run him as any old knight). Hope to get the CSU with my pre-order since it is a kick-ass model.
Father-Knight is an entirely new unit.
His stat-line
Spoiler:
MOV4-4, CC23, BS14, WIP13, ARM5, BTS9, W2, S2 (this is silhouette, a new characteristic) Boarding Shotgun, Breaker Pistol (new), DACCW, Assault (new) Kinematika L1(new), Religious, 43 points 0 SWC.
He looks formidable. No idea which sectorial will get him, apart from MO.
When I have the money (4 kids eats up a lot of disposable income). I will be getting the infinity starter set. It looks like what I finally need to push me over the edge into getting it.
I haven't quite quit but my buying has definitely gone down to a bare minimum. Ebayed 7th rules, the last set of models were at half price from a friend. The reasons I don't leave for good are that I enjoy the background, I have three 3000+pt armies! and my group still enjoys and plays.
The reasons I've slowed down is price, codex creep, time, time time. Normal sized games seem to take way to long with a lot of it looking at the rules and codex.
I've been spending time and money on blood bowl, x-wing, marvels dice masters, and an assortment of board games.
Believe half of what you see and none of what you hear.
Tanakosyke22 wrote: To mirror MWHistorians thoughts a bit too, I play PanO and was looking to start up a second faction as well. Also helped that I was intrugued by the father-knight as well and I wanted it (not sure if the knight will get his own stats. If not, I can just run him as any old knight). Hope to get the CSU with my pre-order since it is a kick-ass model.
Father-Knight is an entirely new unit.
His stat-line
Spoiler:
MOV4-4, CC23, BS14, WIP13, ARM5, BTS9, W2, S2 (this is silhouette, a new characteristic) Boarding Shotgun, Breaker Pistol (new), DACCW, Assault (new) Kinematika L1(new), Religious, 43 points 0 SWC.
He looks formidable. No idea which sectorial will get him, apart from MO.
What I mean by my words is that he is going to be legal or not later in tournament play and putting in lists in general after Ice storm. Sorry, I should have meant to type that out, as I thoughtmi saw his stats. :p
Still, it seems he his fomitable, but inexpensive for what you get with him.
The obligatory non-40K/non-Warmahordes player in the forum.
Hobby Goals and Resolution of 2017: Paint at least 95% of my collection (even if getting new items). Buy small items only at 70% complete.
Tanakosyke22 wrote: To mirror MWHistorians thoughts a bit too, I play PanO and was looking to start up a second faction as well. Also helped that I was intrugued by the father-knight as well and I wanted it (not sure if the knight will get his own stats. If not, I can just run him as any old knight). Hope to get the CSU with my pre-order since it is a kick-ass model.
Father-Knight is an entirely new unit.
His stat-line
Spoiler:
MOV4-4, CC23, BS14, WIP13, ARM5, BTS9, W2, S2 (this is silhouette, a new characteristic) Boarding Shotgun, Breaker Pistol (new), DACCW, Assault (new) Kinematika L1(new), Religious, 43 points 0 SWC.
He looks formidable. No idea which sectorial will get him, apart from MO.
What I mean by my words is that he is going to be legal or not later in tournament play and putting in lists in general after Ice storm. Sorry, I should have meant to type that out, as I thoughtmi saw his stats. :p
Still, it seems he his fomitable, but inexpensive for what you get with him.
Every unit is legal in ITS outside of Mercs, unless they're part of a factions list as standard.
The Father Knight is a new Knight unit for Pan Oceania, so yes, he'll be ITS legal, just like the Nomads new Reverend Healer (who sounds pretty boss as well. Linkable with both Moiras and Custodiers!).
Janthkin wrote:Back on topic, folks. The "I'm still playing/I'm not playing" conversation is interesting, but inappropriate here. There are other threads for that.
Fair do's. Hopefully this one's a better fit.
Toofast wrote:I guess I should've expected my intentions to be misrepresented and clarified a little more.
That's alright. People were taking my 'don't buy into 40K as a self-contained, special-snowflake sealed bubble' bit and turning it into 'buy this other self-contained, special-snowflake sealed bubble instead'.
Toofast wrote:I have 5k points worth and all the necessary books. I don't have time/energy/desire to spend more money on another system and learn all new rules/strategies, try to make all new friends or convince people who have no problem playing 40k to switch games, and play in the dark, cramped FLGS on felt tables with no scenery... people start new 40k armies with $200-300 initial purchases....
I see zero reasons to switch...
I see at least three.
1) To quit buying as opposed to switching: you have 5K points worth, all the necessary books, and it takes $200-300 dollars to start a new army. Less if you don't need the BRB, I guess. What more do you need? Fair enough, in your case you want to start eldar, try something different rather than keep up with the space wolf meta and all it's shenanigans, and you're going to try to get them on the cheap; but the latter might be more tricky than you think, for a few reasons. (Though I can sympathise, trying to snap up a few skaven bargains - though that's why I know it can be tricky!)
2) The time, energy and desire to spend more money on another system. Again, fair enough with the desire, but I'm wondering where you got the time and energy, not to mention the moolah, to pull together 5k points of space wolves for 40K? Other systems have much cheaper rulebooks, require much fewer models to start, and much fewer models overall. Even for some mass battle games, which might require fewer models per unit/element and have fewer elements overall (I look at rules rather than number of models to guess whether a game's mass or skirmish - 40K and WHFB are skirmishes. 'Warband' at best.) or allow smaller scales for even more saving.
Though I'm not personally asking you to give all that 5K points up. Like I hinted above, I'm not suggesting switching wholesale to Warmachine or Dropzone Commander, but to keep your space wolves and maybe think about trying an alternative ruleset with them. There are a few. A bit more generic and abstracted than 40K, but then I don't think much of the idea of equating fluff with rules. The rules are there for a hopefully fun, flowing game, not for determining what flavour breath your marine captain has this morning.
3) The time, energy and desire to learn all new rules/strategies. On one hand I see this as starting to clutch at straws to rationalise the sunk cost fallacy - how you gonna have the time, energy and desire to learn all new rules and strategies for eldar? On the other: I've said it before, others have said it many times before, but please take take it from us that other rules are not as complicated, convoluted, and just plain massive as 40K. Some seem like it, but other, great rulesets are simplified in comparison - taking less time to learn and much less to actually play, too. Also, deceptively simple in cases, in that fewer, more thoughtful rules can mesh together in interesting combinations on the tabletop.
That is, some other rules have a much better balance between strategy and tactics; let alone balance of individual armies and unit types. 40K is way overloaded on the strategy side. Some canny individuals can apply deep tactical thinking and others take advantage of one or two little tactical tricks, but overall the game is ruled by listbuilding and autorunning units to the point that I'm not sure if the average 40K player knows what a tactic is. (And people think admech robots have unusual rules. Though I could be wrong. Feel free to admonish) Other games still depend on strategy - pointed army lists still need a bit of balance, tanks need antitank strategies etc.. - but there's more emphasis on how you use the army list, too. Not a simple thing in itself, maybe, but the point is do you think that'd save you a few minutes of hunching over a calculator, mathshammering out the best choices vs. MEQs?
40K might seem like the norm because it's so widespread, so readily available and played in GW shops and most FLGSs, and the first wargaming experience for a lot of people, sometimes for quite a long time. I know; I was there. But when you take that and WHFB as just two games in the wide spectrum out there (it goes way beyond the other 'box set' games) they look ever more bizarre and aberrant. I hesitate to bring up Epic: Armageddon for the umpteenth time, but IMO it's a good example of a tactical, 'easy to learn hard to master' game, wrapped in a familiar setting, with free downloads out there for easy comparison.
GW stores vs. FLGSs... I don't include that as a point because it's much more specific and personal. However, welcome to the world of us non-GW gamers. It often involves some amount of cajoling, organisation, preparation and effort. Can't rely on the blueshirts out there. Sometimes you have to act as your own blueshirt, or outrider, or pressganger.
If (if) GW keeps circling the bowl financially, you might be thrust into that world before too long. Maybe even sooner if your local GW manager, or his superiors, wonder why you keep turning up to play your eldar without having bought any eldar there. Oh yes. I was there too. Not so much in the specific situation of turning up with ebay armies, but as one of a bunch of vets cleared out to make way for newer paying customers. I'm not threatening or gloating; just saying that you might be in a cosy place now, but don't take it for granted.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/08/11 09:48:39
Recently I've moved on to Bloodbowl, and found it to be hilarious.
I and one of my friends have taken to alternating between 40k games and Bloodbowl. Atm, I'm waiting for my team to arrive from Black Scorpion, and once they are here we'll be starting a tournament as per the ruleset.
We've also been looking into more obscure, large-scale conflict games, and found this place, which looks like a good supplier of such things.
MWHistorian wrote: Rumors are that Infinity's Operation Ice Storm is outselling 7th edition. I pre-ordered it and didn't buy 7th edition. Anyone else?
That was a quote from the owner of Wayland Games, which I believe is the biggest independent seller in Europe.
He said that Icestorm has outsold 40k 7th edition by some margin, which also equated to about half of 40k 6th edition during the same period. Also interesting in terms of how much less 7th edition is selling compared to 6th edition, at least from an independent seller.
The boxset looks like an absolutely perfect place to start the game from new, I'm going to use it for Intro games, but it possibly holds less appeal for established players who don't have interest in Pan O or Nomads (and who will most likely just wait for the 3rd edition rulebook).
Semi related, according to one of Australias biggest online stores, The Combat Company, 2nd edition Dystopian Wars (I think? The latest edition) has been outselling 40k 7th edition 7:1.
Seems Australians weren't thrilled being asked to buy a new edition so early.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/08/11 04:24:57
How soon does a new edition have to arrive before nobody is thrilled to buy it?
Perhaps GW should issue a smartphone app that automatically buys 8th edition for you while you are on the way home from buying 7th edition, and buys 9th edition while you are going to pick up your 8th edition books. By the time you get to the shop, 10th edition is also ready for collection.
-Loki- wrote: Semi related, according to one of Australias biggest online stores, The Combat Company, 2nd edition Dystopian Wars (I think? The latest edition) has been outselling 40k 7th edition 7:1.
Seems Australians weren't thrilled being asked to buy a new edition so early.
I buy a bit from The Combat Company, while I don't think they'd lie, they do seem to hate GW. Maybe they just got fed up with the trade agreements or something else, but The Combat Company doesn't actively advertise GW games anymore. They carry them, but 40k and WHFB used to have their own sections, now they are buried alongside all the other sci-fi and fantasy games respectively. They also haven't featured anything GW related in any of their newsletters for ages and when they do have new GW products they do put them in the "Recent Updates" they do their best not to really highlight them in the more prominent "New Products" section (this is probably partly thanks to GW not letting independents use GW images for advertising, so they have to wait until they actually get them and can photograph them).
So if you don't know that new GW products are coming out and you buy from The Combat Company, you'll quite possibly never even realise that they are carrying it.
Compare this to basically all the other games they carry which get prominently displayed in banner ads, have promotions and when new stuff comes out you see it in the "New Products" area.
Currently I see big ads for new Infinity stuff, AK Interactive hobby products, the X-wing wave 4 restock, Bolt Action boot camp along with new products for Dropzone Commander, X-wing and 4Ground scenery. It would be easy to miss the fact we are in the middle of a Space Wolves release for 40k.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/08/11 06:44:05
GW did stiff CC pretty bad with stock for new releases... Tau was especially bad iirc? Getting less than 1/10th of what they had pre orders for. I can well understand their desire to give one back to GW wherever possible. Defiant Gaming the other major online retailer in Aus doesn't even carry GW stuff anymore iirc, other than paints I think.
Seeing the stats in the report, ~55% of aussie GW sales were direct compared to 20-30% in the US which shows that 1. independents are sick of GW and 2. A lot of Aussies will happily take a rodgering from GW still. Sadly.
--- I'll add Star Wars Armada for where I plan to sink a fair bit of cash now that I've largely left 40k. Mantics Dungeon bash could see a fair entry purchase out of me too. Wolfmurder the Murdering Wolf Lord of Wolferhampton on his chariot of blizzardfrost wolfaxes is making it very easy to let the 40k universe slip way down the priority list for me.
Kilkrazy wrote: How soon does a new edition have to arrive before nobody is thrilled to buy it?
Perhaps GW should issue a smartphone app that automatically buys 8th edition for you while you are on the way home from buying 7th edition, and buys 9th edition while you are going to pick up your 8th edition books. By the time you get to the shop, 10th edition is also ready for collection.
The speed of the release didn't bother me so much as 1. the timing to desperately prop up the financials and 2. partially because of the timing it was 6.1 edition, not 7th and even somehow managed to be worse for the game overall. If it had of been used as a "windows 7" which fixed virtually everything wrong with Windows Vista I would have been ecstatic for a new release so soon after 6th - especially with a "50% discount on BRB with proof of ownership of 6th BRB" as a "we're sorry we're so hopelessly incompetent" which MS also did iirc. I guess it's more of a Windows 8 with unbound being the "metro" which cripppled an otherwise good.... no can't even use that analogy as win 7 was good, 40k 6th was not ; p
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/08/11 07:01:11
So if you don't know that new GW products are coming out and you buy from The Combat Company, you'll quite possibly never even realise that they are carrying it.
I wonder how much of this is GW not letting independents use their stock imagery and box art in a lot of cases? It must make life much more difficult for the site, who are otherwise forced to use a massive block of text in Times New Roman saying '40k! Woo!'
When Wayland Games had pre-orders on for the 40k Imperial Knight, they actually used pictures of the Dreamforge Games Leviathan miniature instead.
So, it could be both that, and the fact that GW are known for a doing a dance that consists of thrusting their groin in the face of independent retailers repeatedly, while whipping them.
Yonan wrote: GW did stiff CC pretty bad with stock for new releases... Tau was especially bad iirc? Getting less than 1/10th of what they had pre orders for. I can well understand their desire to give one back to GW wherever possible. Defiant Gaming the other major online retailer in Aus doesn't even carry GW stuff anymore iirc, other than paints I think.
Yeah, I haven't heard a good thing about how GW treats independents in Australia for about 20 years. The guy who used to own the FLGS I bought stuff from when I started all those years ago said he used to have a good relationship with GW until a GW store opened 10 minutes down the road and suddenly it got harder for him to get stock.
All the time I ordered GW stuff from him in the past few years before he closed, GW screwed him around which resulted in long delays before I got my models. The tin foil hatter in me thinks GW expects us customers to go to GW stores instead of having to wait weeks or on occasion months to get the same things from our FLGS... instead I just massively reduced my purchasing of new GW junk and spent more money on other games and traded GW stuff of which the FLGS sees large profits and GW sees zero.
Yonan wrote: Seeing the stats in the report, ~55% of aussie GW sales were direct compared to 20-30% in the US which shows that 1. independents are sick of GW and 2. A lot of Aussies will happily take a rodgering from GW still. Sadly.
Actually from what I read Aussies are 67% direct vs 44% for the US.
It doesn't really mean "Aussies will happily take a rodgering from GW still. Sadly". It could simply mean that the only people still playing are the few that play in GW stores and buy from that store (which is my experience, GW games aren't played much in most FLGS's these days in my area, only the GW store has people regularly playing GW games and even then it's a shadow of what it used to be). I'd also argue that GW stores have a greater presence per head of population than the US.
The state of GW products in Australia is pretty grim from what I can see. Not being able to find games outside of the GW store is part of the reason my GW purchasing has come to a halt. It's hard to justify buying new models when there's no where to play except the local GW and I don't like rocking up with models that I've obviously bought elsewhere, lol (the store manager is actually a nice guy).
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/08/11 07:27:34
AllSeeingSkink wrote: I buy a bit from The Combat Company, while I don't think they'd lie, they do seem to hate GW. Maybe they just got fed up with the trade agreements or something else, but The Combat Company doesn't actively advertise GW games anymore. They carry them, but 40k and WHFB used to have their own sections, now they are buried alongside all the other sci-fi and fantasy games respectively. They also haven't featured anything GW related in any of their newsletters for ages and when they do have new GW products they do put them in the "Recent Updates" they do their best not to really highlight them in the more prominent "New Products" section (this is probably partly thanks to GW not letting independents use GW images for advertising, so they have to wait until they actually get them and can photograph them).
This is why GW needs to stop shafting independents so much. IIRC, The Combat Company stated that since they can't rely on getting sufficient launch stock to supply the pre-orders, they'd stop advertising new GW releases because it sucked for the customers that they got excited about a new release and had to wait months for pre-orders. So this one is entirely GW's making and I really don't blame independents from trying to push other companies to reduce their reliance on GW. It's a complete joke the way they are treated, and I'm just surprised they haven't been dropped from more places.
Edit: Fixing the quotes.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/08/11 12:36:18
Kilkrazy wrote: How soon does a new edition have to arrive before nobody is thrilled to buy it?
Perhaps GW should issue a smartphone app that automatically buys 8th edition for you while you are on the way home from buying 7th edition, and buys 9th edition while you are going to pick up your 8th edition books. By the time you get to the shop, 10th edition is also ready for collection.
Meanwhile, the rules dev team had ben cut dow to one man - Matteus Wardicus, your spiritual liege! GOOD NEWS everyone!
Yonan wrote: Seeing the stats in the report, ~55% of aussie GW sales were direct compared to 20-30% in the US which shows that 1. independents are sick of GW and 2. A lot of Aussies will happily take a rodgering from GW still. Sadly.
Actually from what I read Aussies are 67% direct vs 44% for the US.
Ahh I see, you included the mail order which yeah is direct, I didn't.
The state of GW products in Australia is pretty grim from what I can see. Not being able to find games outside of the GW store is part of the reason my GW purchasing has come to a halt. It's hard to justify buying new models when there's no where to play except the local GW and I don't like rocking up with models that I've obviously bought elsewhere, lol (the store manager is actually a nice guy).
Yeah this mirrors what I've seen. I haven't set foot in a GW so can't assess that but so much less 40k being played. Lots of Warmahordes, Dreadball, X-Wing etc.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/08/11 08:47:50
The state of GW products in Australia is pretty grim from what I can see. Not being able to find games outside of the GW store is part of the reason my GW purchasing has come to a halt. It's hard to justify buying new models when there's no where to play except the local GW and I don't like rocking up with models that I've obviously bought elsewhere, lol (the store manager is actually a nice guy).
Yeah this mirrors what I've seen. I haven't set foot in a GW so can't assess that but so much less 40k being played. Lots of Warmahordes, Dreadball, X-Wing etc.
The GW store near me always seems to have at least a couple of people in it but with only one and a half tables not many games get played. The nearest FLGS used to have a string 40k presence but that has dried up since 7th (although apparently that's just a coincidence and it was because the club leader didn't like having to take what space Magic left him). Now it's all X wing there.
Further out than that the next FLGS would laugh at you for trying to get a game of 40k because they all play Warmachine, Dyst Wars, X wing and Flames of War. Even the Battle Bunker in the city was practically deserted last time I was there. The drop off of interest in 40k over the last 3 years or so is really quite amazing.
Fafnir wrote: Oh, I certainly vote with my dollar, but the problem is that that is not enough. The problem with the 'vote with your dollar' response is that it doesn't take into account why we're not buying the product. I want to enjoy 40k enough to buy back in. It was my introduction to traditional games, and there was a time when I enjoyed it very much. I want to buy 40k, but Gamesworkshop is doing their very best to push me away, and simply not buying their product won't tell them that.
Hobby centres 42% - 46% - 59% - 31% - 57%
Trade 36% - 41% - 28% - 56% - 33%
Mail order 13% - 13% - 13% - 13% - 10%
Forge World and Black Library 9% - - -
Thanks.
The UK difference is only slightly weighted towards mail order and trade (60% / 50% split), so unless there are disproportionate numbers buying the rulebook (and only the rulebook) directly via hobby centres or mail order (and keeping in mind margins should in theory be greater from those), we are in the ball park where 40k customers who have continued with 7th edition no longer massively outnumber a couple of more much more fringe games now.
We've also been looking into more obscure, large-scale conflict games, and found this place, which looks like a good supplier of such things.
Take a look at Steel Crown, Onslaught Miniatures and Troublemaker Games too. The four are the 'inheritors' of epic, coming about during and after the slow death of specialist games, and counting a few epic fans among them.
We've also been looking into more obscure, large-scale conflict games, and found this place, which looks like a good supplier of such things.
Take a look at Steel Crown, Onslaught Miniatures and Troublemaker Games too. The four are the 'inheritors' of epic, coming about during and after the slow death of specialist games, and counting a few epic fans among them.
I left GW because I simply could not justify the price anymore. I hardly get to play any games as it is, so a huge portion of my time is with the actual hobby side of it. That led to the value vs price to not really be worth it at that juncture. I have since moved on to historical miniatures and I am very impressed by all that is out there, and at such wonderful prices.
That all being said, I'd get back into both Warhammers if GW did a sudden 360 and grew some sense.
"Death is my meat, terror my wine." - Unknown Dark Eldar Archon
& 
It often involves some amount of cajoling, organisation, preparation and effort. Can't rely on the blueshirts out there. Sometimes you have to act as your own blueshirt, or outrider, or pressganger.
