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 BoomWolf wrote:
I've faced old wraiths enough to tell you that even a single unit that is left to do its thing will murderise its way through your backfield, mulching tanks and other ranged support units.

Four of them, that are nearly indestructible? I see no way to beat it without the cheesiest builds who rely on obvious balance flaws themselves.

Unless the formation contains some sort of backside we are not aware of, or does not give quite as much as we think-its broken. "kill the spider" is not a real option, as its a T6 W3 3+ 4+++ model on his own right, meaning he requires unrealistic firepower to begin with. anything said on the riptide/IK/NDK/WK being too durable-he makes it seem like a joke, considering he costs a fraction of them, and requires almost as much firepower. (50 points IIRC)

There is no downside to this formation, unless you count having to take scarabs.

I did field this the other day, and a Scalpel squadron dealt with it pretty easy. Granted, DE specialize in killing Monstrous Creatures.

With 3++ the only way to get around it is Destroyer/Stomp (so a IK should be fine at kill them)

Outside of that it's just volume of wounds. Or S10 for Instant Death.

If its in the formation to get RP just kill the single Spyder that's giving them the RP.

Scarabs are no downside, they are solid unit on their own.

Also, I do not consider army-specific counters to be a reasonable answer there. nobody except DE can field a reasonable number of poison shots to render the high T values irrelevant.

What I meant by something we don't know, is if now that we got the codex, there is some rule that wasn't in the spoilers that limits the power of the formation in some way, or restricts its availability.

 BoomWolf wrote:
Scarabs are no downside, they are solid unit on their own.

Also, I do not consider army-specific counters to be a reasonable answer there. nobody except DE can field a reasonable number of poison shots to render the high T values irrelevant.

What I meant by something we don't know, is if now that we got the codex, there is some rule that wasn't in the spoilers that limits the power of the formation in some way, or restricts its availability.

Theres not... I have the codex.

Guess who's taking the hate-crown now

koooaei wrote:

Regular boyz seem more point-efficient. Wraiths have rending. But are ap- otherwise iirc. So, you'll still get your mighty 6+ and won't care about rends that much drowning him in bodies. I'd not hope to kill much. You'll need 36 s3 attacks to do a single wound before RP. So, basically, you're not gona kill anything in mellee as they're 2-wound models and he'd spam wounds around as your regular guyz are hitting at different ini with pk ones. So, in the end he'll have lots of 1-wound wraiths ready for the next charge.

But let's count how long would you hold. Let's say you've got a 20 strong ork squad with a nob and let's assume you're a boss at rolling mob rule.

6 wraiths charge and inflict ~ 8-10 unsaved wounds before fnp. So, i guess we'll be able to hold for 3-4 assault phases if we don't fail mob rule. Well, that's not something too great as a unit of 20 shootaboyz with rokkits and pk/bp nob is just 1/4 cheaper than a unit of 6 wraiths. But at the same time it's not so bad as wraiths are not obsec and you'll probably be able to bauble wrap your guyz a bit. And playing defensively is more tactically advantageous in this case.

Wraiths do seem too tough for the points from a mathhammer perspective, yep. But let's see how it goes on actual gaming tables.

Thanks for the quick math out, yeh no point in 'ard boyz really. I think, potentially the way forward would be (with orks - i know this is army specific, but its my army) attempt to get a charge off with your boyz, yeh you wont kill much and the points cost ain't much different; a 1/4 you say, but tbh i'd happily leave my boyz just tarpitting wraiths, as I have not much else to deal with it, plus its probably a pivotal part of his list, so a 2-4 turn tie up with a unit im bringing anyway (troops tax).

Secondly, as you said, I wont do much, and he'll slowly eat through me boyz, but all it requires is bad rolling on his part and 1 wraith down and his unit is at 3/4 potential or 5/6 (dependant on size), whereas bad rolling for me isn't really a thing, as I only have a 1/6 save, so there gona die anyway.

I forsee complaining about Wraiths for a month or two and then it dies down. How often do you see people complaining about TWC? I mean, it's strong, and people appreciate that, but they kind of accept it and learn to play with/around it.

Solar Shock wrote:

Thanks for the quick math out, yeh no point in 'ard boyz really. I think, potentially the way forward would be (with orks - i know this is army specific, but its my army) attempt to get a charge off with your boyz, yeh you wont kill much and the points cost ain't much different

It's often a good idea not to charge when you want to tarpit and expect the combat to last x2 phases (0, 2, 4, etc) so that the opponent won't break free from you on your own turn before you have a chance to react. I often prefer to bauble wrap and just hold the ground in this case. This way you're not giving the enemy a free round of crumping. Like in case with imperial knights. That's situational, though. And wraiths can move through models bu you've got numbers to disallow this movement most of the time.

 koooaei wrote:

Solar Shock wrote:

Thanks for the quick math out, yeh no point in 'ard boyz really. I think, potentially the way forward would be (with orks - i know this is army specific, but its my army) attempt to get a charge off with your boyz, yeh you wont kill much and the points cost ain't much different

It's often a good idea not to charge when you want to tarpit and expect the combat to last x2 phases (0, 2, 4, etc) so that the opponent won't break free from you on your own turn before you have a chance to react. I often prefer to bauble wrap and just hold the ground in this case. This way you're not giving the enemy a free round of crumping. Like in case with imperial knights. That's situational, though. And wraiths can move through models bu you've got numbers to disallow this movement most of the time.

mmm that was my concern, the ability to move through it. But i suppose with a cresent shaped bubble wrap I can effectively like 'herd' them, the choice being charge the boyz or move away from their intended target. ahahaha i have a great image of a unit of boyz with choppas just herding wraihs round the battlefield waving pitchforks and shouting jeers. Plus I suppose with shoota boys I could simply shoot them while bubble wrapped and if they charge il get overwatch and if not il then just chase em and shoot them some more Sounds hilarious.

Solar Shock wrote:
i have a great image of a unit of boyz with choppas just herding wraihs round the battlefield waving pitchforks and shouting jeers.

AHA that's how it works for orkses, i guess! Cunnin' but brutal! Or brutal but cunnin'...

As Eldar squads of scatter laser war walkers with guide and wave serpents would do the trick, but you would need to know that your opponent is running a list that has tons of wraiths.

The best way to deal with them is going to be mass s6/s7 firepower which not many armies bar eldar can do.

Pdogg614 wrote:
As Eldar squads of scatter laser war walkers with guide and wave serpents would do the trick, but you would need to know that your opponent is running a list that has tons of wraiths.

The best way to deal with them is going to be mass s6/s7 firepower which not many armies bar eldar can do.

Even then, they're not easy to kill. Doing the Math, I just calculated five serpents firing at a unit of Wraiths with RP, and assuming they got the full shots from every Shield and every scatter laser hit, which would never happen, they are only dealing 5 unsaved wounds.

Or you could just through a wraith knight at them. 240 points and lots of s10 and t8 wounds should do the job. Wraiths will rely on rends, but lack the volume of attacks to kill him quickly. Especially if the wraiths have taken a couple casualties prior to assault.

Eldar have no real problem.

DE have no issue

Orks/IG have the bodies

Nids won't care much

Marines can take an IK or use combat squading MSU or both

Tau can use a Nova charges riptide to tarpit after wittling them down.

Every army has an answer really. Wraiths are still solid, but taking too many will just make a necron list vulnerable to bad match ups.

I don't think people realize how much wraiths leaned on that destroyer lord and his MSS yet. MSS were literally the answer to anything like a wraith knight or greater demon etc.

 Sasori wrote:

Pdogg614 wrote:
As Eldar squads of scatter laser war walkers with guide and wave serpents would do the trick, but you would need to know that your opponent is running a list that has tons of wraiths.

The best way to deal with them is going to be mass s6/s7 firepower which not many armies bar eldar can do.

Even then, they're not easy to kill. Doing the Math, I just calculated five serpents firing at a unit of Wraiths with RP, and assuming they got the full shots from every Shield and every scatter laser hit, which would never happen, they are only dealing 5 unsaved wounds.

the problem isn't toughness, yes toughness is gona make it hard to get wounds on them, but there are plenty of T5 things out there. The issue is the 4+ FNP and 3+/3++. Those two combined simply give you a very good save against anything. even ID is out of the question with them still getting a 5+. Then the issue migrates to their 12" move and ability to pass through units. Its not like they are durable and are sat backfield scared of combat, they actively seek it. They will endure some big punishment and then will get into combat, where your ability to deal with them goes from army wide to that specific unit. Combined with i5 means they will likely go first and neuter your ability to do return damage. T5 is a problem, but the problem is by passing the saves. You can't bypass the initial save and simply force a FNP check easily. as if you could they only have a 4+ FNP, which while good isn't unbeatable, its a 50/50.
they will fail 1/3 armour saves, whatever it is, but then they still have the FNP which reduces that to 1/6 wounds failed. Thats where they really get you, as there is nothing that reduces that bar STR10 and D. Forcing volume of saves yeh, but thats still 1/6. so thats 12 saves to kill a wraith whatever the source; be that bolter fire, autocannons, scatterlasers, plasmablasts grotblastas, powerfists, basic attacks, whatever it is, unless its STR10 or D its a 1/6 chance to fail a save.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Red Corsair wrote:
Or you could just through a wraith knight at them. 240 points and lots of s10 and t8 wounds should do the job. Wraiths will rely on rends, but lack the volume of attacks to kill him quickly. Especially if the wraiths have taken a couple casualties prior to assault.
Eldar have no real problem.
DE have no issue
Orks/IG have the bodies
Nids won't care much
Marines can take an IK or use combat squading MSU or both
Tau can use a Nova charges riptide to tarpit after wittling them down.

Every army has an answer really. Wraiths are still solid, but taking too many will just make a necron list vulnerable to bad match ups.
I don't think people realize how much wraiths leaned on that destroyer lord and his MSS yet. MSS were literally the answer to anything like a wraith knight or greater demon etc.

I think this is also true, I dont think wraith-spam will be a problem, wraiths will be a pain, but I doubt the problem will be the spamming. It will be the combination into other necron lists where they are truely powerful.

Im glad i dont play competitive 40k, my meta necron player only owns 3 and max he would run would be 6 if he gets another box.

They are managable in smaller doses but if spammed to the degree of running 3+ formations of them than you need to really look at the people your playing with, there is alot of cheesy lists in 40k(less now) they are just another one added to the pile. It does not make for a fun game for either player if one side dominates. I know i play eldar and have dominated one too many games and it almost caused my playgroup to not want to even bother playing 40k as much cause its not fun.

Pdogg614 wrote:
Im glad i dont play competitive 40k, my meta necron player only owns 3 and max he would run would be 6 if he gets another box.

They are managable in smaller doses but if spammed to the degree of running 3+ formations of them than you need to really look at the people your playing with, there is alot of cheesy lists in 40k(less now) they are just another one added to the pile. It does not make for a fun game for either player if one side dominates. I know i play eldar and have dominated one too many games and it almost caused my playgroup to not want to even bother playing 40k as much cause its not fun.

Hey guys, can we avoid whine posts like this in the tactical thread please? I don't want this turning into a another "Wraiths are OP whinefest" So far a lot of good suggestions have been brought up the last few pages, and It would better for thread as a whole if we can keep on the tactical track, rather than the complaining/whining track.

 Desubot wrote:

 Dakkafang Dreggrim wrote:
I play orks, I just down them with weight of attacks and shots like I did before.

T5 will be annoying but, not broken OP.

You realize that a unit of 6 (IIRC is the right size) will take over 100 st4 hits just to kill. 216 hits with fabricator formation thing. and this should fit at low points.

can you as an ork player bring the heat?

Im not saying its broken

but its definitely hitting over powered status.

Lootas work just fine though. Mass fire them into oblivion. Take shoota boyz for extra chance to kill them when they charge. Painboy for 4+ wound, Powerklaw for 2+ wound. Flamers for guaranteed wounds on their charge. Dakkajet, dakkaguns from bikes. None of them except lootas are a real dependable way of killing them though. But just taking those extra things into account might make the difference. Or any Str 10 attack might luckily decide their fate.

Requizen wrote:
I forsee complaining about Wraiths for a month or two and then it dies down. How often do you see people complaining about TWC? I mean, it's strong, and people appreciate that, but they kind of accept it and learn to play with/around it.

TWC cost a feth ton, and you generally only see one unit of them and wraiths can take FNP+ against light AND ID weapons.

Sure a single wraith squad will probably hit the same amount of hate. but IF multiple starts become a thing then there will probably a lot more complaints.

There is only 1 major downside (if it is anything of a down side) is that the spider is only a 6" movement it means that possibly for a turn or two the Wraiths or scarabs wont have a RP if they charge out and the spider rolls low run.







Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Waaghboss Grobnub wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

 Dakkafang Dreggrim wrote:
I play orks, I just down them with weight of attacks and shots like I did before.

T5 will be annoying but, not broken OP.

You realize that a unit of 6 (IIRC is the right size) will take over 100 st4 hits just to kill. 216 hits with fabricator formation thing. and this should fit at low points.

can you as an ork player bring the heat?

Im not saying its broken

but its definitely hitting over powered status.

Lootas work just fine though. Mass fire them into oblivion. Take shoota boyz for extra chance to kill them when they charge. Painboy for 4+ wound, Powerklaw for 2+ wound. Flamers for guaranteed wounds on their charge. Dakkajet, dakkaguns from bikes. None of them except lootas are a real dependable way of killing them though. But just taking those extra things into account might make the difference. Or any Str 10 attack might luckily decide their fate.

216 "hits" over the course of 1 game? ok when did lootas get that strong?

Edit: Blerp wait a sec they are st7 right? then yeah maybe. over 1 whole game if they live.

But yeah FNP is also very good against them for T4+ units.

I think lootas can do it, but you'd have to bring several full squads of them, and get lucky with the D3 on the first few turns, because we both know that lootas are not going to last that long.

wasnt complaining, just saying i dont deal with spam or tournament lists nor like to, thats probably a rant for another thread though.

I think best will be guided warwalkers for points per kill in the eldar army and have the mobility to back away while firing. I did the math and without RP the serpents will only kill 1 each per turn. The war walkers guided will kill about 2.5 per turn twin linked without RP.

Best advice is to try and widdle them down 1 squad at a time to leave them with less "mobility". Less squads of them the less threat area he can cover.

As for dealing with with the canoptek swarm, I'll second the idea of using a vindicare assassin to take out the spyder and then assist in clearing the Wraiths.

Arnt Dread Knights St10? i think shunting a few to get to the spiders first then the wraiths can also work well.

FYI, if you run the formation on its own the RP roll is only a 5+. To get the 4+ you have to be part of a Decurion Detachment to gain its command benefit. Which makes spamming much harder after you pay the RL tax.

 herpguy wrote:
I cannot think of any recent examples of GW taking a REALLY good unit and then making them incredibly broken like this.

For some values of 'recent', look at Screamers and Flamers from a couple years ago.

PanzerLeader wrote:
FYI, if you run the formation on its own the RP roll is only a 5+. To get the 4+ you have to be part of a Decurion Detachment to gain its command benefit. Which makes spamming much harder after you pay the RL tax.

If by "Tax" you mean 154 points... which is the extra immortal and tomb blade units combined cost, after accounting for requred HQ and 2 troops....

 Sasori wrote:

PanzerLeader wrote:
FYI, if you run the formation on its own the RP roll is only a 5+. To get the 4+ you have to be part of a Decurion Detachment to gain its command benefit. Which makes spamming much harder after you pay the RL tax.

If by "Tax" you mean 154 points... which is the extra immortal and tomb blade units combined cost, after accounting for requred HQ and 2 troops....

The minimum cost of a RL with 0 upgrades is 479 points. Decently kitted with transports it'll weigh in at 800-900 points. Even if you wanted max Canoptek Harvests, at 230 points each you can get a total of 5 minimum sized formations into an 1850 list if you buy no upgrades on your RL. That'll give you 15 wraiths, 15 scarabs, 5 spiders, 1 overlord, 20 warriors, 5 immortals and 3 tomb blades with ~220 points to go. It's just not a very good army at that point. You lose all the things that made the old wraithwing great, like ranged threats from ABs and Night Scythes plus more wraiths.

PanzerLeader wrote:

 Sasori wrote:

PanzerLeader wrote:
FYI, if you run the formation on its own the RP roll is only a 5+. To get the 4+ you have to be part of a Decurion Detachment to gain its command benefit. Which makes spamming much harder after you pay the RL tax.

If by "Tax" you mean 154 points... which is the extra immortal and tomb blade units combined cost, after accounting for requred HQ and 2 troops....

The minimum cost of a RL with 0 upgrades is 479 points. Decently kitted with transports it'll weigh in at 800-900 points. Even if you wanted max Canoptek Harvests, at 230 points each you can get a total of 5 minimum sized formations into an 1850 list if you buy no upgrades on your RL. That'll give you 15 wraiths, 15 scarabs, 5 spiders, 1 overlord, 20 warriors, 5 immortals and 3 tomb blades with ~220 points to go. It's just not a very good army at that point. You lose all the things that made the old wraithwing great, like ranged threats from ABs and Night Scythes plus more wraiths.

You are absolutely correct on all your points there.

However, my point was you are not paying much of a tax for the Reclmamation legion, as you are required to have a HQ and 2 troops for any CAD. So you are only paying a real tax of 154 points.

I don't think massed Wraiths will be the way to go with the Decurion myself. I feel you want to maximize the the use of the other formations.

If you want to spam pure Wraiths, you are better off taking the CAD route, since you will be able to cut more points by loosing the Spyder and Scarabs.

 Sasori wrote:

PanzerLeader wrote:

 Sasori wrote:

PanzerLeader wrote:
FYI, if you run the formation on its own the RP roll is only a 5+. To get the 4+ you have to be part of a Decurion Detachment to gain its command benefit. Which makes spamming much harder after you pay the RL tax.

If by "Tax" you mean 154 points... which is the extra immortal and tomb blade units combined cost, after accounting for requred HQ and 2 troops....

The minimum cost of a RL with 0 upgrades is 479 points. Decently kitted with transports it'll weigh in at 800-900 points. Even if you wanted max Canoptek Harvests, at 230 points each you can get a total of 5 minimum sized formations into an 1850 list if you buy no upgrades on your RL. That'll give you 15 wraiths, 15 scarabs, 5 spiders, 1 overlord, 20 warriors, 5 immortals and 3 tomb blades with ~220 points to go. It's just not a very good army at that point. You lose all the things that made the old wraithwing great, like ranged threats from ABs and Night Scythes plus more wraiths.

You are absolutely correct on all your points there.

However, my point was you are not paying much of a tax for the Reclmamation legion, as you are required to have a HQ and 2 troops for any CAD. So you are only paying a real tax of 154 points.

I don't think massed Wraiths will be the way to go with the Decurion myself. I feel you want to maximize the the use of the other formations.

If you want to spam pure Wraiths, you are better off taking the CAD route, since you will be able to cut more points by loosing the Spyder and Scarabs.

Indeed, if I'd spam Wraiths like in my 6th ed Necron list, then I'd run them outside the RL.
However I think Sasori is right about the small tax the RL provides.
I think inside the RL the number of Wraiths can be kept smaller than outside thanks to the improved RP.

isn't there an FOC in the latest campaign that allows units to re-roll 1's on reanimation rolls? cause if so that would be nasty with Wraiths.


well, time to hope that the necron players are sportsmen and don't bring too many.

 Tiger9gamer wrote:
isn't there an FOC in the latest campaign that allows units to re-roll 1's on reanimation rolls? cause if so that would be nasty with Wraiths.


well, time to hope that the necron players are sportsmen and don't bring too many.

Luckly, if you are in that FOC-you are not in the decurion or even the small formation-so no RP wraiths.