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I can't imagine how my BA are going to attempt to handle any decent number of wraiths with RP. At the same or less point value at that. They just seem ludicrously good.

I need to remind everyone believing just killing the spyders will be a solution, that the spyder itself is T6 3W and gets the 4RP as well and more importantly it's drawing fire from the wraiths.

As long the spyder moves the full 6" and keeps running, the 12" bubble isn't really hard to keep up on the wraith as long the wraith strings out to leave one model in the bubble. The Spyder is a pretty small model, can be hidden easily as well. It doesn't mean you can always see it !

The spyder and scarabs aren't "tax", they're so cheap and can help perform scoring duties.

To those saying weight of attacks, just try rolling against T5 2W 3++ and 4+ Reanimation Protocols.

So far only my Tau have the best shot at removing the spyders asap. Putting AP2 ignore cover weaponry on the sypders so they only have the 4+ Reanimation.

Anything that comes in volume and wounds them on a 4+ or better. Tau, DE, lots of heavy flamers.

One thing to note is that they lost the ability to jump over other units.

Now, you can use screening tactics against them again.

They only get RA if they are in that specific formation and near the slower spyder.

Just... shoot the Spyder down, then the Wraiths. If the Wraiths had outpaced the Spyder, no issue.

A small part of me hopes theirs a week two or so faq that fixes them back to T4. You know, because it'll just be long enough after the release that people will have bought them already.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Anything that comes in volume and wounds them on a 4+ or better. Tau, DE, lots of heavy flamers.

It takes an average of 120 poison shots to kill a squad of Wraiths.... That's without the RP bonus.


What you are advocating is a lot easier said than done. Tau don't even have the firepower to down Wraiths that easy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 jy2 wrote:
One thing to note is that they lost the ability to jump over other units.

Now, you can use screening tactics against them again.

They can move over models as if it were open ground, they just can't end their movement phase on top of them.

I like how a lot of people's responses on how to counter the new wraiths involve the most broken spell in the game. I'm pretty sure if you have a decent combat unit, and turn them invis..they'll take on anything, and at the very least tar pit like no tomorrow.

Congrats I guess, I on originality.

 Crazyterran wrote:

A small part of me hopes theirs a week two or so faq that fixes them back to T4. You know, because it'll just be long enough after the release that people will have bought them already.

That's not how GW works.

I find the funny part about the kill the spyder deal is that I plan on using the scarabs as a buffer between the spyder and nearly everything else. Now the spyder gets a cover save. t6 w3 3+/5+cover/4+rp. And if you are shooting the spyder you are using up a unit to not shoot at something more deadly (a lot of other things).

It's all kinda full circle The wraiths the deadlist of the three are given a RP by the spyder who can be shielded by the scarabs who are then healed by....the spyder. Should have named this formation the Paradox Formation, or Shield/sword formation.

And Wraiths are still gona be deadly even without RP.
Luckilly, i'm an ork player who can just tarpit them for at least a couple of rounds. But yep, if all's true i clearly see them being 'top tier' broken in conjuration with other stuff like Apocalyptic pieplates here and there.

I love these sky is falling threads! So much fun. But the truth is competitive players will just spam more wraiths instead of clunky lynchpin units because it's better.

Also remember folks wraiths got more durable but they aren't all that killy. We're still only talking about 18 ws4 attacks base here. I've seen them stuck on meqs quite a few times. They are definitely hard to get rid of and might alone be enough to shift the meta from shoot and scoot armies. That said TWC are still better for reasons were all probably familiar with.

dominuschao wrote:
That said TWC are still better for reasons were all probably familiar with.

They've got beards.

Ok so I really wanna take this idea to its realistically abuseable limit.

It must be run from a Decurion Detachment, which requires a Reclamation Legion first and foremost

Reclamation Legion (minimum requirements):

-Overlord (80? Don't have the pts on him but seems about right compared to Lord and Destroyer Lord)
-1 unit of 5 Immortals (85 pts)
-2 units of 10 Warriors (260 pts)
-1 unit of 3 Tomb Blades (~60? not sure on exact points for these guys)

Total: 485 (roughly)

Then you can have your Canoptek Harvests:

-Spyder w/ Gloom Prism and Particle Beamer
-3 Scarabs
-6 Wraiths w/ Whip Coils

Total: 388

If you wanna run something like the Wraithwing of old, but with Super Wraiths, it comes to 1650. That only leaves room for 1 Nightscythe possibly 2, if you drop all the upgrades from each Tomb Spyder. I only really see running 2 Canoptek Formations in an 1850 and retaining anything resembling balance. 2 Canoptek Harvests sounds + and Obelisk sounds pretty damn scary though. And possibly one of the most durable armies in the games.

As such:
Reclamation Legion:
-Overlord
-5 Immortals
-10 Warriors w/ Nightscythe
-10 Warriors w/ Nightscythe
-3 Tomb Blades w/ Ignores Cover

Canoptek Harvest:
-6 Wraiths w/ Whip Coils
-3 Scarabs
-Tomb Spyder w/ Gloom Prism and Particle Beamer

Canoptek Harvest:
-6 Wraiths w/ Whip Coils
-3 Scarabs
-Tomb Spyder w/ Gloom Prism and Particle Beamer

Living Tomb:
Obelisk

with around 30 points left to spend on the Overlord.

There might be the possibility to hande a unit of wraith, with Invi or unit XY, but the problem is still? Is it effective? How many Points do you have to spend for that solution and how do you handle the rest of necron force and the other 2 units of wraith? And dont forget, ifyou want to tarpit them, you have to get them first. 12" + ignore Terrain means that they pick their fights most of the time.

I love these sky is falling threads! So much fun.

The Thing is, this thread wasnt ment as sky is falling thread. I wanted to hear solutions. But the only Solutions I ve read so far are using OP stuff or rather ineffective.

Its like with WS. There might be some answers, but not every army has them. Tarpitting with boys might work, if you can get them at full strength. But what can the other armies do?

Are they significantly stronger than TWC, which can also be 2W T5 3++ with rending attacks, 12" move, and fleet?

dominuschao wrote:
I love these sky is falling threads! So much fun. But the truth is competitive players will just spam more wraiths instead of clunky lynchpin units because it's better.

Also remember folks wraiths got more durable but they aren't all that killy. We're still only talking about 18 ws4 attacks base here. I've seen them stuck on meqs quite a few times. They are definitely hard to get rid of and might alone be enough to shift the meta from shoot and scoot armies. That said TWC are still better for reasons were all probably familiar with.

I agree with most of this. I would not say that TWC are flat out better though, just different.

I think most people aren't considering that if doing the Decurion thing for buffed RP, you have to put 7 units on the table before you get even your first unit of Wraiths. Those 7 units aren't the killiest things in the dex either, and 3 of them really require a transport to be useful (Immortals and 2 units of Warriors). Granted, if you are playing a Decurion, pretty much everything you put on the table is going to be insanely durable for its points. I mean in the list I just posted EVERY SINGLE MODEL (assuming Wraiths are within 12" of a Spyder) has 4+ FNP that cannot be denied by Instant Death (ok its a 5+ now, woohoo!) OR is an AV14 all around Superheavy vehicle with 6HP that can regenerate HP OR is a Flyer. I feel like that's gonna win you the war of attrition against a lot lists.

I can see the advantages of just spamming Wraiths in a CAD over paying for the buffs, but I feel like a lot of players are going to find the detachment-wide +1 to RP to be too hard to pass up. There's also no way to get Wraiths in a Decurion Detachment without running a Canoptek Harvest, and thus paying the spyder tax.

It will be interesting to see how the Decurion vs CAD debate plays out or if a mix of the two ends up being very strong.

Also, thoughts on countering:

Some sort of knight, hope he doesn't get too many rending hits and hope you get a 6 on your Stomp? You should have 2-4 rounds of stomps to achieve this. (Or as a last resort, hope it tips over and explodes with the Str D portion of the blast on them.)

 astro_nomicon wrote:

dominuschao wrote:
I love these sky is falling threads! So much fun. But the truth is competitive players will just spam more wraiths instead of clunky lynchpin units because it's better.

Also remember folks wraiths got more durable but they aren't all that killy. We're still only talking about 18 ws4 attacks base here. I've seen them stuck on meqs quite a few times. They are definitely hard to get rid of and might alone be enough to shift the meta from shoot and scoot armies. That said TWC are still better for reasons were all probably familiar with.

I agree with most of this. I would not say that TWC are flat out better though, just different.

I think most people aren't considering that if doing the Decurion thing for buffed RP, you have to put 7 units on the table before you get even your first unit of Wraiths. Those 7 units aren't the killiest things in the dex either, and 3 of them really require a transport to be useful (Immortals and 2 units of Warriors). Granted, if you are playing a Decurion, pretty much everything you put on the table is going to be insanely durable for its points. I mean in the list I just posted EVERY SINGLE MODEL (assuming Wraiths are within 12" of a Spyder) has 4+ FNP that cannot be denied by Instant Death (ok its a 5+ now, woohoo!) OR is an AV14 all around Superheavy vehicle with 6HP that can regenerate HP OR is a Flyer. I feel like that's gonna win you the war of attrition against a lot lists.

I can see the advantages of just spamming Wraiths in a CAD over paying for the buffs, but I feel like a lot of players are going to find the detachment-wide +1 to RP to be too hard to pass up. There's also no way to get Wraiths in a Decurion Detachment without running a Canoptek Harvest, and thus paying the spyder tax.

It will be interesting to see how the Decurion vs CAD debate plays out or if a mix of the two ends up being very strong.

While you bring up a good point, even you played a regular CAD, you'd still be required to put down a HQ and 2 troops anyway, So really the Reclamation only adds the tax of an extra troop and Tomb Blades. Tomb Blades arn't even a tax anymore because they are so good.

Mavnas wrote:
Are they significantly stronger than TWC, which can also be 2W T5 3++ with rending attacks, 12" move, and fleet?

A full unit of wraiths w/o whipcoils (to make them I5, essentially) are 45 pts cheaper, I think (than TWC w/ SSs and nothing else)... with them they are 36 pts cheaper and better in basically every single way.

RP can't be taken against 6-s on S: D and stomps, right? As it's just: "lol i rolled a 6 you loose".

 koooaei wrote:
RP can't be taken against 6-s on S: D and stomps, right? As it's just: "lol i rolled a 6 you loose".

RP can't be taken against S: D regardless. Stomps, and anything else that says "removed from play" also bypass RP.

Great, looks like the answer for OP unit of the month is, YET AGAIN, Knights.

I like the decurion, in fact I love it. Some really cool stuff coming from that and not weak either. Just wanted to point out everything comes at cost.

Wraiths will shake up armies that are used to pouring fire power into problems. They essentially come stock with a pseudo invis. Hooray assault.

I do agree wraiths are different than TWC although they look the same on the surface. TWC have more attacks ws5 (cof) and s10ap2. Wraiths have greater durability with RP.

As for efficient answers you treat them as invisible and kill everything else. How you fight khornedogs beast stars or seers. Otherwise bubble wrapped gunlines still make a mess of the rest of the army. Fearless blobs, fnp boyz etc. Strength D exists, adlance, the detachment can't deal well with fmc or flyer spam, wolves doc and orks can all tangle just fine in combat. And of course tau and eldar still have insane firepower that will drop those lynchpins. Just a few but I'm sure there's more.

 Sasori wrote:

 astro_nomicon wrote:

dominuschao wrote:
I love these sky is falling threads! So much fun. But the truth is competitive players will just spam more wraiths instead of clunky lynchpin units because it's better.

Also remember folks wraiths got more durable but they aren't all that killy. We're still only talking about 18 ws4 attacks base here. I've seen them stuck on meqs quite a few times. They are definitely hard to get rid of and might alone be enough to shift the meta from shoot and scoot armies. That said TWC are still better for reasons were all probably familiar with.

I agree with most of this. I would not say that TWC are flat out better though, just different.

I think most people aren't considering that if doing the Decurion thing for buffed RP, you have to put 7 units on the table before you get even your first unit of Wraiths. Those 7 units aren't the killiest things in the dex either, and 3 of them really require a transport to be useful (Immortals and 2 units of Warriors). Granted, if you are playing a Decurion, pretty much everything you put on the table is going to be insanely durable for its points. I mean in the list I just posted EVERY SINGLE MODEL (assuming Wraiths are within 12" of a Spyder) has 4+ FNP that cannot be denied by Instant Death (ok its a 5+ now, woohoo!) OR is an AV14 all around Superheavy vehicle with 6HP that can regenerate HP OR is a Flyer. I feel like that's gonna win you the war of attrition against a lot lists.

I can see the advantages of just spamming Wraiths in a CAD over paying for the buffs, but I feel like a lot of players are going to find the detachment-wide +1 to RP to be too hard to pass up. There's also no way to get Wraiths in a Decurion Detachment without running a Canoptek Harvest, and thus paying the spyder tax.

It will be interesting to see how the Decurion vs CAD debate plays out or if a mix of the two ends up being very strong.

While you bring up a good point, even you played a regular CAD, you'd still be required to put down a HQ and 2 troops anyway, So really the Reclamation only adds the tax of an extra troop and Tomb Blades. Tomb Blades arn't even a tax anymore because they are so good.

Yeah "tax" is probably the wrong word in this situation, it just happens to be the diction we use to talk about these situations so often. I guess something like "opportunity cost" would apply better to the new Necron codex, since it seems like damn near everything you put on the table is strong in its own right. And I'm not saying that's a bad thing by any means in terms of competitiveness or balance.

My main point was that while the Super-Wraiths are good, really really good, they're just not nearly as spammable as it first appears without severely gutting the rest of the list.

Tarpitting them seems like a good tactic.
But you shouldn't forget that you will probably have 12+ Scarabs coming up behind them.

Everyone's comparing wraiths to TWC but forgetting that TWC can easily be S6 AP3 with shred. That's a lot more deadly on the offense, at the expense of RP

 Spellbound wrote:
Everyone's comparing wraiths to TWC but forgetting that TWC can easily be S6 AP3 with shred. That's a lot more deadly on the offense, at the expense of RP

IIRC, TWC aren't fearless no? So the wraiths got that going for them too. In addition, having the wolves both carry a storm shield and a wolf claw puts them at roughly twice the point value of the wraiths, who are S6 inherently. Your point is valid non the less, but point economics come Into play.

Actually, wouldnt a Flying Daemon Prince of Nurgle with a Balesword just mulch the entire squad once the Spyders dead?

I mean just ignore the stupid things until your 1-3 Nurgle Princes get near it, charge, mutilate it, then start going for the poor little uglies. T5 still doesn't mean jack to ID.

Tau Fire Warriors:

1 full squad (12 models) more than 15" away will take out 1W from the Wraiths. At 15" or less, 2W (so 1 less Wraith in the squad). For each Wraith, you'll need an entire troop slot at 15" (and not counting on RP). Each full squad is barely more than 100p... each Wraith costs less than 40p. Greater Good...

This doesn't count markerlights. You'll need BS 5 for each squad to kill 1.667 Wraith - so, 2 FW full squads with BS 5 could destroy HALF of a Wraith squad. (6 unsaved wounds).

Plasma XV-8 are terribad against them (a full XV-8 with 2 plasmas each will kill less than 2 Wraiths).

Maybe the best thing to do is to send a full 30-models Kroot squad with an Ethereal nearby to hold them off, because if the Wraiths are loose...

TompiQ wrote:

 Spellbound wrote:
Everyone's comparing wraiths to TWC but forgetting that TWC can easily be S6 AP3 with shred. That's a lot more deadly on the offense, at the expense of RP

IIRC, TWC aren't fearless no? So the wraiths got that going for them too. In addition, having the wolves both carry a storm shield and a wolf claw puts them at roughly twice the point value of the wraiths, who are S6 inherently. Your point is valid non the less, but point economics come Into play.

That TWC model would be 75pts, 80pts with melta bombs(that's how I kit).

Jpr wrote:
To the people saying they will throw 200-300 str 3/4 hits on wraiths... Have you run the math hammer on it? All I can say is.. Be prepared to be disappointed. This Is without the possibility of a res orb being in there for Lols.200 str 3 attacks kills 1 wraith on average and not even that with a res orb turn .

If your talking about the green tide its ~300 (2 base plus 1 for 2cc wpns)atks and 400 on charge just from the Boyz at ws5 and that's just the chaff. The 7nobs w Powerklaws are an additional 21 (28 on charge) str8 or 9 pk atks at ws5 all with thier own 5+ fnp. This is with me keeping the tide warboss (w big choppa str7) and painboy (poison)in the back protecting them. If the tide charges and they have a large charge range as well they get +1 atk,+1 str and possible 100 initiative 10 str3/4 how hits. If they get charged it's 103 str4 snap shots.

I've run the math wraiths just don't have the atks to go through 100 toughness 4, 4+, 5++, 5+++ Orks. Your best bet is to snipe out the 3-4 characters that buff the tide and charge into them before they charge you. It's kinda the same tactic I get to use on you. Except ur guys move faster but are held back by the spider. Meaning you either leave your RP behind and charge the tide or you wait for the spider to catch up. Giving me time to hit the spider with multiple str 8 ap2 blast weapons and a chance to charge the wraiths.