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guys storm bolters on terminators are ~bad~

 axisofentropy wrote:
guys storm bolters on terminators are ~bad~

I don't find them to be anything but a slight chance to get a lucky wound. Fists, hammers, CML, and the Heavy weapon are where you get your points worth.

bobafett012 wrote:
I'm sitting here trying to put together some Deathwing lists for some games i'm playing this weekend. They are 2k points.

A couple things i'm considering, and wanting to get some other peoples thoughts on. First off, to clarify, when I say Deathwing, I actually mean Deathwing. Terms, land raiders, and venerable dreads, and HQs that are inducted into the DW. I have my own thoughts on this stuff, but i've been out of 40k since basically 5th because i only played a handful of 6th edition games and quit, so i want to see what everyone else is thinking after seeing the rules and the codex.



First thing, the age old debate between shooty or CC Deathwing. Whats going to be better this edition? I personally love shooty terms, but I was thinking maybe a mixture of shooty terms and knights. Honestly, I don't see a whole lot of reasons to bring TH and SS terms over the Knights. The Mace of Absolution is a Thunder Hammer without the penalty. I'm thinking, drop a couple 5 man squads of Knights in and aim at their super heavy or large units and use CP re-rolls to get the charge off. Then use shooty terms to march up the field, take objectives and lay down their improved fire power from Storm bolters, Cyclones and assault cannons.


Second, I definitely want to run a Libby in term armor, but after reading the entry in the SM codex, other than losing the ability to DS him, and a couple weapon options, why would you ever take the Libby in Terminator armor over Ezekiel? He's got a 2+/4++, better stats, gets all 3 psychic powers, and some cool wargear that you essentially get for free, all for nearly 20 points less.

Thirdly, what are peoples thoughts on the best command squad units. Apothecary, champion and ancient all seem pretty good to be honest.

Lastly, with land raiders and dreads being much tougher than before, are DW lists going to be better with less terms and loaded up on 2 or 3 LRs and Dreads, or lots of terms and maybe only 1 land raider and a dread? This one i'm not as sure on. The real question is, just how tough are the LD and dreads going to be. basically you can get a 5 man squad of terms instead of a LR, or 2 dreads with some left over.

I've been using a mix of shooty and close combat Deathwing Terminators. A Vanguard Detachment of Belial, a Champion, a DW Terminator Squad and a DW Knight squad did very well for me at a recent tournament. Stormbolters arriving by teleport with Belial to assist shooting can really thin out the opposition. The Knights are excellent in close combat. I am now putting a SS/TH in my shooty squads, though, to give a bit of protection against things like Lascannons.

The nice thing about a Librarian in Terminator armour is that he can arrive with your DW when they teleport. This gives them some protection against Smite while also allowing your Librarian to assist. Ezekiel is great, but he you cannot assure that you can get him in with your Terminators. I've been running a Librarian on a bike to allow him to be with the DW when they arrive, but a Terminator Librarian would be more effective.

I am finding the Champion a little of a drawback. He can do great things, but he is a kill point for your opponent, counts as a drop at deployment and with close combat interruptions from Command Points he is not always an asset in a fight. The Ancient, though, does great things.

I am not sure on the Landraider or Dreadnought piece. I am trying both.

 axisofentropy wrote:
guys storm bolters on terminators are ~bad~

Yeah...I'm gonna have to go ahead and disagree with you there...I don't think there's much doubt that Knights are better at combat than regular old terminators, but that extra ranged support can really help dig out of horde situations, I find. It's a little harder to tarpit anything these days, but man, dropping an extra 8-9 orks before charging in to bash heads is potentially very helpful. That initial Belial-fueled drop can really take a chunk out of something. Let's also not forget that Terminators are slow as crap, so anything that increases their effective footprint is welcome, particularly when it comes so cheap.

MilkmanAl wrote:

 axisofentropy wrote:
guys storm bolters on terminators are ~bad~

Yeah...I'm gonna have to go ahead and disagree with you there...I don't think there's much doubt that Knights are better at combat than regular old terminators, but that extra ranged support can really help dig out of horde situations, I find. It's a little harder to tarpit anything these days, but man, dropping an extra 8-9 orks before charging in to bash heads is potentially very helpful. That initial Belial-fueled drop can really take a chunk out of something. Let's also not forget that Terminators are slow as crap, so anything that increases their effective footprint is welcome, particularly when it comes so cheap.

While this is a valid point, it is very situational. Sure, they're pretty good against a horde army, but not so good against a MEQ army.

True enough. I'm reasonably confident in a Deathwing army's ability to deal with MEQs and heavy armor, though, given that everything has a freaking powerfist or better.

MilkmanAl wrote:

 axisofentropy wrote:
guys storm bolters on terminators are ~bad~

Yeah...I'm gonna have to go ahead and disagree with you there....

As am I, for quite a few reasons these days, actually more than before tbh. Terms are as slow as ever, so to get terms into assault, at this point, requires a delivery system other then DSing in. pretty much everything can out run and out maneuver terms so your not chasing nothing down. Storm Bolters literally got twice as good as they were in prior editions. Bolters typically do the lion's share of killing in most SM armies and should because they are the most prevalent weapon they have and put out lots of shots. SB's in concert with SC like Belial or Azreal they get even better, and none of those abilities are being wasted 50% of the time on assault only terms. I think they both have their merits but for me personally, DW knights have not been good for me in my handful of games in 8th. they are too slow without Land raiders or what not to get into CC.

For those playing deathwing.
Rumor has it that the cost on powerfists will drop in the C:SM codex release.

While this will not effect Dark Angels until the DA codex is released, it does mean that the cost of DW terminators will drop -- likely later this year.

MilkmanAl wrote:

 axisofentropy wrote:
guys storm bolters on terminators are ~bad~

Yeah...I'm gonna have to go ahead and disagree with you there...I don't think there's much doubt that Knights are better at combat than regular old terminators, but that extra ranged support can really help dig out of horde situations, I find. It's a little harder to tarpit anything these days, but man, dropping an extra 8-9 orks before charging in to bash heads is potentially very helpful. That initial Belial-fueled drop can really take a chunk out of something. Let's also not forget that Terminators are slow as crap, so anything that increases their effective footprint is welcome, particularly when it comes so cheap.

First off, that Ork player will pick those 8 orks up from the front, so your 9" charge becomes 10" or 11".

And the scenario you described can be fulfilled much easier by other units. Would you put bolters on Jump Pack Assault Squads? Why not?

Again, you're paying 20 points for each power fist and 2 for each Storm Bolter. If your terminators are not using their power fists, you are wasting their points.

All that said, do I hear power fists are about to get much cheaper in the new codexes??? If it's the rumored 13 points, that would totally change my thinking about tactical terminators!

I wonder if Deathwing will enjoy the PF points reduction though...GW doesn't always apply those reductions to specialist armies like the Deathwing, but I sure hope they do in this case.

What is everyone's opinion of CML on Deathwing Terminator Squads? Should every squad have one and a heavy weapon?

 Retrogamer0001 wrote:
I wonder if Deathwing will enjoy the PF points reduction though...GW doesn't always apply those reductions to specialist armies like the Deathwing, but I sure hope they do in this case.

What is everyone's opinion of CML on Deathwing Terminator Squads? Should every squad have one and a heavy weapon?

 axisofentropy wrote:

 Retrogamer0001 wrote:
I wonder if Deathwing will enjoy the PF points reduction though...GW doesn't always apply those reductions to specialist armies like the Deathwing, but I sure hope they do in this case.

What is everyone's opinion of CML on Deathwing Terminator Squads? Should every squad have one and a heavy weapon?

Meaning TH/SS terminators with a CML are back!

I appreciate it. I think i'm leaning more towards dreads to. The smaller size compared to a pred is really appealing. And the ven dreads hitting on 2+ is pretty nice. The only dread I have right now is one I bought in like 2002 when I first started playing haha. I did somehow manage to keep all the arms for it though so could do a fist/flamer combo. Only concern I have with this is wasting points when there are no deepstrikes/cult ambush/etc units. I'll have to run him up the field, which isn't necessarily bad but not sure it'd work out. I figured I could always counter charge with the shooty version I have now in a pinch backed up by the HQ units. I'm really thinking about doing the fist/LC like you have if I can find the points. I'd give up one ML shot for a little more CC.

Hey! Just wanted to give you a small update. Had a game last night where two venerables were absolutely key -- not initially as planned though. I ran one with lascannon/fist and flamer and the other as lascannon/ML. I was surprised to find how much more useful it was to have the fist rather than the ML. I guess my army has enough shooting at range.The fist provided so much in the way of close combat options. It's not a good idea to totally rely on Azrael. Although he is beast, I think I'm going to go with two with fist and flamer over the Lascannon/ML all the time. It's too many eggs in the shooting basket to use the ML. At one point I held all objectives and got approached heavily in the mid-field by horde nurgle lol. I threw both dreads, azrael, techmarine, some intercessors into a combat to bog them down in a fight. I knew that fight wasn't going anywhere soon but figured the long fight might be to my benefit through a combination of high toughness better attacks. Happily it turned out to be true. I was in a fight with a bunch of nurgle demons, a plaguecaster, plague marines and Typhus at one point (all of which were pretty near impossible to kill at range) and managed to pull through. The dreadnought with fist did so much work. It allowed me to kill Typhus in a round between the fist dread and Azrael. After that moment, the rest crumbled. It was just really nice to have some back up for Azzy. Definitely worth considering if you are on the fence. The techmarine proved also to be rather tough with the 2+/4++ (invul courteous of azzy) power axe and servo arm.

One problem I had was not running a psyker originally. I chose to run a P.Lieutenant. I think that was a mistake. Psychic Support is really too useful. The rerolls of 1 was good but I found Azzy provided enough of a support with rerolls that it probably was a little redundant. If I find I cant live without the reroll to wound of one, I will have to guage the usefulness of the techmarine but overall the techmarine is coming across as more important so far -- and much better in a fight.

The list I will run next at 1500 will be:

Azrael
Ezekial
Techmarine

Intercessor x 5
Intercessor x5
Tactical Squad x5

Venerable Dread lascannon/fist/flamer
Venerable Dread lascannon/fist/flamer

Devestators x5 (2 lascannons)
Predator annihilator x1

razorback assault cannon x1

At 1750 I will add a dark talon, make the dev squad a 10 man. Half with back field support lascannons, and the others with melta or plasma in the razorback. And will probably change the tac squad to a scout sqaud.

I have found my Stormbolter Deathwing quite useful. They expand the range of action of the Deathwing and give them flexibility. In six competitive games I have successfully pulled off a Turn 1 charge with two units and expended six CP doing so. Its a gamble to rely on a Turn 1 Terminator assault. That's why I am liking the Stormbolters. A five-man Squad with four Stormbolters guided by Belial should kill roughly seven Orks if they arrive within 12". Their Assault Cannon will likely kill three more. Add in my second Deathwing Squad in the Detachment plus Belial and the Ancient's Stormbolters and I am killing about 24 Orks. Usually I have beamed into the flank of the flanking Ork mob and am thus fairly safe from a supporting Boyz Mob. With pure SS/TH Deathwing squads you are quite one-dimensional. I grant, though, that its a very effective dimension! If I knew that I was playing Chaos or other Marines I may well opt for a pure TH/SS squad, but for tournament play I am liking the Stormbolters so far. Full disclosure, I also run DW Knights and I do like them! Working with a Stormbolter Deathwing Squad gives the detachment some flexibility.

@Widied,

That's a very shooty list! I have tried out the Azrael/Primaris fire base and it can lay down some serious damage.

Cheers

First off, that Ork player will pick those 8 orks up from the front, so your 9" charge becomes 10" or 11".

Again, you're paying 20 points for each power fist and 2 for each Storm Bolter. If your terminators are not using their power fists, you are wasting their points.

Not if you shoot at a different unit than you charge! 9" charges aren't exactly super reliable, so I agree with you on that front, but just don't shoot at your charge target.

8th, for the most part, is about weight of fire, and SBs are pretty good at that. I have no issue with them on Terminators. There's nothing worse than running hither and yon with assault terminators and failing to get into CC because your opponent uses his movement phase and mobility well. I prefer CC Termies in a transport over DS them in most cases, although gambling on that first turn charge is fine if you have the right buffs in place.

 Fenris-77 wrote:
8th, for the most part, is about weight of fire, and SBs are pretty good at that. I have no issue with them on Terminators. There's nothing worse than running hither and yon with assault terminators and failing to get into CC because your opponent uses his movement phase and mobility well. I prefer CC Termies in a transport over DS them in most cases, although gambling on that first turn charge is fine if you have the right buffs in place.

Agreed. Assault Termies and DW Knights really need a transport. Otherwise they risk failing their charge and then your opponent can just kite them.

So if you aren't willing to forge world, how do you transport the knights? Classic land raider with it's lascannons covers a nice position, but charging one up seems contrary to it's role. I haven't heard good things about the flamer variant because getting close enough to flame means melta or assault is right around the corner. The crusader has extra seats but it brings a "lot" of the same thing we already have, bolters.

So what do? I had talked myself into three razorbacks instead but all of this *teleporting units aren't going to make charges* talk has me wondering.

I'm just going with the LRC, nothing fancy and good against blobs.

 ZergSmasher wrote:

 Fenris-77 wrote:
8th, for the most part, is about weight of fire, and SBs are pretty good at that. I have no issue with them on Terminators. There's nothing worse than running hither and yon with assault terminators and failing to get into CC because your opponent uses his movement phase and mobility well. I prefer CC Termies in a transport over DS them in most cases, although gambling on that first turn charge is fine if you have the right buffs in place.

Agreed. Assault Termies and DW Knights really need a transport. Otherwise they risk failing their charge and then your opponent can just kite them.

Agreed with both of you guys. I think our tactical terms are better in this meta than assault terms. with all the buffs everywhere, your losing half your buff with assault terms over shooty terms, and its not like assault terms are tons better in assault than power fist terms. the CC weapons and attacks are nearly identical, yet those Knights have zero shooting, which means no overwatch as well as normal shooting.

For me personally, i've ran knights in my last few games and they've really done nothing except DS in, fail their charge, even after i re-roll with CP, and then they get shot and/or charged and wiped out. the game they survived, after they killed half a squad of berzerkers, they couldn't reach any other unit to get into assault so I just had to park them on an objective. At least with shooty terms i get shots off, but then, with shooty Deathwing, and depending on your opponent of course, your better off staying out of CC unitl you get a round or 2 of shooting in, then use your fists to clean them up.



I played a game sunday, I decided to take 2 nephs, and 1 dark talon over my 3 venerable dreads and wow they were awesome. the mobility was just a godsend to my Deathwing.

bobafett012 wrote:
I think our tactical terms are better in this meta than assault terms.

Not when they're paying 20 points for power fists.

BUT LOOK AT THIS

Flood wrote:

axisofentropy wrote:Google Translate suggests 'gauntlet énergétique' means 'energy gauntlet' 12 points!

Does that thunder hammer say 16 or 18 points? Either way, terminators got more viable.

This is a big deal. Deathwing terminators 8 points cheaper per model jumps them right back into viability. Shame we'll probably have to wait for the DA codex or the end-of-year Chapter Approved for this.

TangoTwoBravo wrote:
I have found my Stormbolter Deathwing quite useful. They expand the range of action of the Deathwing and give them flexibility. In six competitive games I have successfully pulled off a Turn 1 charge with two units and expended six CP doing so. Its a gamble to rely on a Turn 1 Terminator assault. That's why I am liking the Stormbolters. A five-man Squad with four Stormbolters guided by Belial should kill roughly seven Orks if they arrive within 12". Their Assault Cannon will likely kill three more. Add in my second Deathwing Squad in the Detachment plus Belial and the Ancient's Stormbolters and I am killing about 24 Orks. Usually I have beamed into the flank of the flanking Ork mob and am thus fairly safe from a supporting Boyz Mob. With pure SS/TH Deathwing squads you are quite one-dimensional. I grant, though, that its a very effective dimension! If I knew that I was playing Chaos or other Marines I may well opt for a pure TH/SS squad, but for tournament play I am liking the Stormbolters so far. Full disclosure, I also run DW Knights and I do like them! Working with a Stormbolter Deathwing Squad gives the detachment some flexibility.

@Widied,

That's a very shooty list! I have tried out the Azrael/Primaris fire base and it can lay down some serious damage.

Cheers

Yeah. It turned out to be very shooty which was good against the defilier that got taken out turn one. Unfortunately against the rest of horde nurgle i had to fight as my shooting was pretty ineffective shooting into blobs of 20-30. i ran one unit of shooty terms before and quite liked them. I have been trying the intercessors instead mostly for bubble wrap but they are where as i can get two units worth for the price of one.

also bikes dropped 6 points and attack bikes 10. I'm still not feeling Attack Bikes but if Ravenwing bikers dropped 6 I'd put them back on the table.

Land Speeders dropped 10 points which I feel is not quite enough.

Inceptors went down 15 points but I'm not yet sure if that fills their niche.

I would think GW would put out some kind of errata that would adjust the point cost of DA/BA/SW wargear to match those of vanilla Space Marines. Otherwise, we might as well play as Green Marines and just use C:SM entries. I'm thinking of doing that anyway for shiggles so that I can try out Guilliman.

 axisofentropy wrote:
also bikes dropped 6 points and attack bikes 10. I'm still not feeling Attack Bikes but if Ravenwing bikers dropped 6 I'd put them back on the table.

Land Speeders dropped 10 points which I feel is not quite enough.

Inceptors went down 15 points but I'm not yet sure if that fills their niche.

On paper they don't look that good and really I don't think they are for many roles. But they seem decent as bubble wrap support for Azrael. The 3+/4++ does make them rather resilient and I have found that even without the invulnerable save they remain fairly tough. The two wounds and 2 attacks makes them better at holding the line than regular marines obviously. And the str 4 -1 AP bolters makes them decent at peppering units. Just don't expect them to take down a swarmlord....

Wow, DWT are going to be sweet down 8pts that's a HUGE change! they needed something to compete with DWK, I suppose, even though as noted, I do like having some range.

Speaking of which, I played a 1000pt game last night against Tyranids and got my ass handed to me in spectacular fashion. My opponent didn't quite know how points worked with selecting units and adding wargear and whatnot and squeezed in an extra hundred points or so. Plus, we played with Genestealers costing 10pts still, so there's an extra hundred, too. Still, I got waxed hard. I ran a unit of DWK, a unit of DWT, 2 las/ccw Ven dreads, and Belial. He had 2 Tervigons, a Hive Tyrant, Termagants, 3 Biovores, 20 Genestealers, and some Gargoyles.

The combo of massed chaff units (gaunts both purchased and spawned by tervigons) and copious mortal wounds was brutal. i managed to drop on the Biovores and get a first-turn charge, but as soon as his psykers got in range, Smite kicked me in the teeth. genestealers ganged up on my 5 Knights and took out most of them. The Knight Master held out for a couple turns, and really kicked some ass with those carry-over wounds. that's a devastating ability against 1-wound models. I was impressed by my DWT shooting, but they had some really unlucky saves and got thinned out by the 2nd turn. Belial was a machine but couldn't keep up with the Gaunt factory and died to the 8-ish leftover Genestealers. Similarly, the Dreads ripped through whatever came at them but got tarpitted long enough to not really do anything useful.

It was a fun game, but Tyranids look to be a fairly discouraging matchup for Deathwing. Other than not spotting my opponent 200pts, I'm not entirely sure what I would've done differently. I had considered dropping mid-board to start taking pot shots at his Stealers, but then I would've been eating Biovore mortal wounds all game. With only 13 models in my list, I didn't figure that was a viable option. I did manage to split my DWK away from Belial, and that was maybe partially a mistake. They made their charge into the Biovores, while Belial and DWT got stranded in combat with Gaunts >6" away.

Do you think any version of the Land Raider would have helped in that game?

What does everyone think of the CML? Is it preferable over something like a HF or AC?

I think a Spartan with its crushing tracks would be nice to have around. I'm also thinking a Crusader with its hurricane bolters would have come up big. I'm really beginning to appreciate horde thinning measure with Deathwing, and I may start shifitng my lists largely in that direction. We hit hard as hell, but there aren't a lot of models or attacks to go around. Storm bolters are helpful and will be even more so on 40pt Termies. I haven't run a Crusader yet, but again, that is starting to sound pretty attractive.

As for the CML, I think it's a decent option, but I worry that it's a very expensive upgrade you'll only use twice or so per game. In my relatively few games, my DWT have been in combat the majority of the time. I don't particularly care for heavy flamers on Terminators since you drop in out of range to use them. I'd rather have the much cheaper storm bolter, most of the time.

I've found running a pair of LRC is a great horde-thinning complement to their DWK and the TH/SS elite/monster-killing cargo.

Even with the recent rumored points cost decreases, I doubt I'd ever transport anything other than DWK and associated characters. They're just too good to pass up with their normal-hitting power maces and Knight Master damage spillover. I *might* consider lightning claw dudes in larger games and pending points adjustments for those, as well.