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Widied wrote:

 axisofentropy wrote:
also bikes dropped 6 points and attack bikes 10. I'm still not feeling Attack Bikes but if Ravenwing bikers dropped 6 I'd put them back on the table.

Land Speeders dropped 10 points which I feel is not quite enough.

Inceptors went down 15 points but I'm not yet sure if that fills their niche.

On paper they don't look that good and really I don't think they are for many roles. But they seem decent as bubble wrap support for Azrael. The 3+/4++ does make them rather resilient and I have found that even without the invulnerable save they remain fairly tough. The two wounds and 2 attacks makes them better at holding the line than regular marines obviously. And the str 4 -1 AP bolters makes them decent at peppering units. Just don't expect them to take down a swarmlord....

what are you talking about

I think he's talking about Intercessors.

So if you take the LRC, where do you get your anti armor? Surely you can't rely on DWT punching tanks to death given the difference in mobility? I suppose I could always drop one unit of DWT and get two lasbacks in return

I do like the combination of 2x hurricane bolters, assault cannon, and a storm bolter too. Rapid fire 14 and heavy 12... More than covers a squad of terminators.. so maybe I *could* stand to fall back to 10 DWT and 5 knights to pick up a couple of razors...but do I try to find points to put anything in them?

While I would certainly appreciate a points drop on Power Fists, I have no problem paying 20 points for the Power Fist and 2 points for the Storm Bolter. You can certainly use both in a turn, and having Deathwing equipped this way makes them very flexible. I do like TH/SS, but its not an automatic choice. I find that Deathwing with Power Fists and Storm Bolters can handle pretty much any situation.

TangoTwoBravo wrote:
While I would certainly appreciate a points drop on Power Fists, I have no problem paying 20 points for the Power Fist and 2 points for the Storm Bolter. You can certainly use both in a turn, and having Deathwing equipped this way makes them very flexible. I do like TH/SS, but its not an automatic choice. I find that Deathwing with Power Fists and Storm Bolters can handle pretty much any situation.

No longer a rumour, a clearer point page has been posted. Power fists on non-characters are now 12 points. So Deathwing come in at a svelt 40 points a pop now.

That's actually really damn good. Frees up a ton of points in a Deathwing-heavy force as well, enough to fit in more answers to things Deathwing handle poorly.

May still not be competitive at a tourney level, but this is easily the best terminators have ever been in the game's history.

 axisofentropy wrote:

bobafett012 wrote:
I think our tactical terms are better in this meta than assault terms.

Not when they're paying 20 points for power fists.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this point. I feel that Terminators that can put out very good fire power on top of being nearly as good in CC outweighs the same unit that is only good in CC and tbh, my Knights have gotten stomped every game now so i'm actually leaning toward dropping them and just bringing another shooty squad.

 axisofentropy wrote:
This is a big deal. Deathwing terminators 8 points cheaper per model jumps them right back into viability. Shame we'll probably have to wait for the DA codex or the end-of-year Chapter Approved for this.

Yes it is a big deal, it means i can drop a single apothecary and get an entire extra squad of terminators or a venerable dread. I'll take it.

TangoTwoBravo wrote:
While I would certainly appreciate a points drop on Power Fists, I have no problem paying 20 points for the Power Fist and 2 points for the Storm Bolter. You can certainly use both in a turn, and having Deathwing equipped this way makes them very flexible. I do like TH/SS, but its not an automatic choice. I find that Deathwing with Power Fists and Storm Bolters can handle pretty much any situation.

Exactly my thoughts and experiences. However, we're talking Knights, because you wouldn't use TH/SS terms when our knights are just flat out better. So, while the survivability is certainly nice, it does nothing for AP-1 or worse, and lets face it, the differences between a mace, a power fist is fairly small. Biggest thing is not having -1 to hit, but when you have re-roll auras all over, that barely factors in.

Are Ven dreads worth taking over something like a Leviathan or a Contemptor?

 Retrogamer0001 wrote:
Are Ven dreads worth taking over something like a Leviathan or a Contemptor?

depends on the other stuff in your army, and hey paint what looks cool first.

8 Wound dreads have a big advantage by not degrading, while the venerable's 6+++ shrug makes it effectively 10-11 Wounds.

But also consider the view of your army from across the table and what your opponent wants to shoot first. Those 8 Wounds go fast if that's the most vulnerable target next to your Predators or whatever. But if you have assault units in his face or even backfield, then he's probably shooting at them, not your dread.

bobafett012 wrote:

 axisofentropy wrote:

bobafett012 wrote:
I think our tactical terms are better in this meta than assault terms.

Not when they're paying 20 points for power fists.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this point.

Besides, you aren't paying 20 points for power fists any more. You're paying 12 points. See the price reductions in C:SM, which the FAQs indicate also applies to DA, BA, and SW.

 axisofentropy wrote:

Widied wrote:

 axisofentropy wrote:
also bikes dropped 6 points and attack bikes 10. I'm still not feeling Attack Bikes but if Ravenwing bikers dropped 6 I'd put them back on the table.

Land Speeders dropped 10 points which I feel is not quite enough.

Inceptors went down 15 points but I'm not yet sure if that fills their niche.

On paper they don't look that good and really I don't think they are for many roles. But they seem decent as bubble wrap support for Azrael. The 3+/4++ does make them rather resilient and I have found that even without the invulnerable save they remain fairly tough. The two wounds and 2 attacks makes them better at holding the line than regular marines obviously. And the str 4 -1 AP bolters makes them decent at peppering units. Just don't expect them to take down a swarmlord....

what are you talking about

Yeah my mistake, i thought the discussion was around intercessors not inceptors.

 Melissia wrote:

bobafett012 wrote:

 axisofentropy wrote:

bobafett012 wrote:
I think our tactical terms are better in this meta than assault terms.

Not when they're paying 20 points for power fists.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this point.

Besides, you aren't paying 20 points for power fists any more. You're paying 12 points. See the price reductions in C:SM, which the FAQs indicate also applies to DA, BA, and SW.

Yes, we're aware of the points drop. The points page was linked a page or so back, it's the reason for the discussion. However, I don't see anywhere in any FAQ, designers comments etc that allow DA, BA, and SW to use the updated weapons point costs. Could you please point me in the direction of that info.

I found an FAQ that gives DA, BA and SW the ability to take the new Primaris models (Reivers etc) from the SM Codex and it lists their wargear costs. Unfortunately their wargear does not include Power Fists. I could not find anything allowing those Chapters to take the other points-reduced wargear, but perhaps that would come out when the new SM Codex actually drops? It would be very strange if they did not, just as it might be strange to release an FAQ allowing us to use points that have not been released yet. I am being optimistic!

 GrimDork wrote:
So if you take the LRC, where do you get your anti armor? Surely you can't rely on DWT punching tanks to death given the difference in mobility? I suppose I could always drop one unit of DWT and get two lasbacks in return

I do like the combination of 2x hurricane bolters, assault cannon, and a storm bolter too. Rapid fire 14 and heavy 12... More than covers a squad of terminators.. so maybe I *could* stand to fall back to 10 DWT and 5 knights to pick up a couple of razors...but do I try to find points to put anything in them?

I rely on the LRC heavy weapons and CMLs.

bobafett012 wrote:
Yes, we're aware of the points drop. The points page was linked a page or so back, it's the reason for the discussion. However, I don't see anywhere in any FAQ, designers comments etc that allow DA, BA, and SW to use the updated weapons point costs. Could you please point me in the direction of that info.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/07/22/the-other-angels-of-death-and-codex-space-marines/

From the mouth of GW:

Blood Angels, Dark Angels and Space Wolves army lists in Index: Imperium 1 all let you use units from the Space Marines section of that book. If you own the new codex, you should feel free to use those same units’ Datasheets from that book instead, until your own codex comes out.

Annoyingly this hasn't been added to the FAQ list yet, but it is Games Workshop's official stance on the matter. BTW, it even explicitly mentions things like taking the librarian stats from the book but using librarian powers from the index-- which, if hte limitation is intended to be "you can take ONLY the EXACT units from C:SM", wouldn't work out. So it's pretty clear that we're meant to take what we can from C:SM until our book comes out.

 Melissia wrote:

bobafett012 wrote:
Yes, we're aware of the points drop. The points page was linked a page or so back, it's the reason for the discussion. However, I don't see anywhere in any FAQ, designers comments etc that allow DA, BA, and SW to use the updated weapons point costs. Could you please point me in the direction of that info.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/07/22/the-other-angels-of-death-and-codex-space-marines/

From the mouth of GW:

Blood Angels, Dark Angels and Space Wolves army lists in Index: Imperium 1 all let you use units from the Space Marines section of that book. If you own the new codex, you should feel free to use those same units’ Datasheets from that book instead, until your own codex comes out.

Annoyingly this hasn't been added to the FAQ list yet, but it is Games Workshop's official stance on the matter. BTW, it even explicitly mentions things like taking the librarian stats from the book but using librarian powers from the index-- which, if hte limitation is intended to be "you can take ONLY the EXACT units from C:SM", wouldn't work out. So it's pretty clear that we're meant to take what we can from C:SM until our book comes out.

Only talks about using the Codex datasheets though, nothing about points values. Because DW and RW are all separate from the vanilla terminators and bikes, nothing in that would appear to let us use the Codex point values.

Gotta agree, nothing in there about using updated points-values for wargear. Maybe someone could shoot off an email to GeeDubs for clarification.

 Melissia wrote:

bobafett012 wrote:
Yes, we're aware of the points drop. The points page was linked a page or so back, it's the reason for the discussion. However, I don't see anywhere in any FAQ, designers comments etc that allow DA, BA, and SW to use the updated weapons point costs. Could you please point me in the direction of that info.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/07/22/the-other-angels-of-death-and-codex-space-marines/

From the mouth of GW:

Blood Angels, Dark Angels and Space Wolves army lists in Index: Imperium 1 all let you use units from the Space Marines section of that book. If you own the new codex, you should feel free to use those same units’ Datasheets from that book instead, until your own codex comes out.

Annoyingly this hasn't been added to the FAQ list yet, but it is Games Workshop's official stance on the matter. BTW, it even explicitly mentions things like taking the librarian stats from the book but using librarian powers from the index-- which, if hte limitation is intended to be "you can take ONLY the EXACT units from C:SM", wouldn't work out. So it's pretty clear that we're meant to take what we can from C:SM until our book comes out.

Yeah I think your wrong. Just because they say something similar in an article, not an official FAQ about using data sheets from C:SM doesn't mean I can jump into C:SM and pick out the point values that suit me. All it says is basically that the units that are not specific to the chapters, that you use SM section of the index, you can use the C:SM for those units. There is certainly no entry in C:SM for Deathwing terminators, so i don't think we're going to be able to use those point values. If they FAQ it as such, sure, and it seems certain that the points will be adjusted in our codex but until one of those 2 things happen, BA, DA, and SW are probably S.O.L.

I hope your right but GW would need to clarify that before I can show up at a tournament using C:SM point values for my Deathwing terminators gear.

Again, given that Games Workshop says you can use the new librarian datasheet without being restricted to only the C:SM psychic powers, I see that as permission to use the new codex's stuff whenever applicable, and otherwise refer to the index.

For me its pretty obvious.
My Dark Angels Wargear list does not contain powerfists. It refers to the Space Marines point values.
And ofc I will always take the most recent values, no matter if they are cheaper or more expensive.

Ugh. This means I'll have to buy the new SM codex, I guess. Oh well, at least I can use my guys as "Green Marines" to use with my Roboute Guilliman model if I want to, in addition to having the latest point costs if I do run actual Dark Angels, which is what I'd prefer doing.

Wow, i really wish we had the storm of fire warlord trait....dropping in Belial and a couple squads of terms along side him would be so good....


Also, so i''ve been debating a little about all the deathwing heavy weapon options. I personally use all assault cannons as i take either tri dread or tri flyer for my anti air, but i've been considering our other options, mainly plasma cannons. I think heavy flamers are a bit too short range for terms and of course not being able to over watch things charging from DS is a little silly, so i don't see a reason to take them over the 6 shot assault cannon. My issue with cyclones is they are just so expensive, more than twice the cost of assault cannons.

So anyways, what's everyone else's opinion on plasma cannons vs assault cannons vs cyclones in our deathwing squads?

I've been using assault cannons as well, for pretty much the same reason. I run at least two venerable las dreads and playing around with a dual storm leviathan. With the leviathan I may find the assault cannons are redundant, but they are general purpose enough that I'm hanging on to them for now. Cyclones would only hold a place in an assault squad of DWT for me and I'd use knights for that so I don't see myself using them anytime soon. Plas is really the only other option at the moment it I'm waiting to see if I feel I need them.

I am curious if the other points reductions would translate to Dark Angels. Would the Ravenwing Bikes, for instance, get the points break that the Bikes get in the new SM Codex? I could see arguments both ways, and it will be a let down for DA players if we are paying the old points until we get our own Codex. I think that the non-core Chapters could do with an FAQ update.

Assault cannons are my go-to. Plasma is intriguing but there are prob better platforms for it.

Cyclones are expensive, but getting to keep your storm bolter is neat. Definitely the highest potential shots, although if regular frag missiles getting 1d6 shots isn't a typo..cyclone frag mode falls short of double missile launchers..which sucks as it's that same cost. Eh, assault cannons math out better for me, so long as I get missiles or Las elsewhere.



So partly for the fact that I have/want to paint these things I'm looking at the following for an initial 2k:
Belial
Asmodai
Deathwing Ancient (TH/SS)
DWT assault cannon, chain fist
DWT assault cannon, chain fist
Deathwing knights
Land raider crusader w/ storm bolter
Venerable dread with twinlas and missile
Predator-autolas

And 167 points. Would you go for...

another vendread (and predator storm bolter)

OR

5 bolter scouts with HB and 5 company veterans (5 chainswords, 2 shields, 3 storm bolters, or some other mix).

Or is there some fundamental flaw what needs fixed in the first chunk of the list? For simplicity's sake I'm just gonna keep running off the index till codexark Angels comes out. Obviously there's not a lot of difference and I'll paint it all eventually . But I need a darn production queue!

Looks solid to me, but I would go melta over SB on your LRC.

I think you can take both now, I just wasn't sure about the points for that MM..they seem a bit expensive this edition.

TangoTwoBravo wrote:
I am curious if the other points reductions would translate to Dark Angels. Would the Ravenwing Bikes, for instance, get the points break that the Bikes get in the new SM Codex? I could see arguments both ways, and it will be a let down for DA players if we are paying the old points until we get our own Codex. I think that the non-core Chapters could do with an FAQ update.

no deathwing bikes aren't bikes. and they have slightly differant rules. (for one thing space marine bikes lack Jink)

BrianDavion wrote:

TangoTwoBravo wrote:
I am curious if the other points reductions would translate to Dark Angels. Would the Ravenwing Bikes, for instance, get the points break that the Bikes get in the new SM Codex? I could see arguments both ways, and it will be a let down for DA players if we are paying the old points until we get our own Codex. I think that the non-core Chapters could do with an FAQ update.

no deathwing bikes aren't bikes. and they have slightly differant rules. (for one thing space marine bikes lack Jink)

True, but in the Index Marine Bikes were 31 points and Ravenwing Bikes were 32 points, so Jink was already in there for a 1 point increase. Is there a reason why DA Bikes would now cost 7 points more than other Chapters? Still, I see your point and I am planning to play my RW bikes from the Index. Its not a deal break for me (you don't play Ravenwing to win necessarily), but some clarity on what points we can take from the new Codex would be cool.

Cheers!

TangoTwoBravo wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

TangoTwoBravo wrote:
I am curious if the other points reductions would translate to Dark Angels. Would the Ravenwing Bikes, for instance, get the points break that the Bikes get in the new SM Codex? I could see arguments both ways, and it will be a let down for DA players if we are paying the old points until we get our own Codex. I think that the non-core Chapters could do with an FAQ update.

no deathwing bikes aren't bikes. and they have slightly differant rules. (for one thing space marine bikes lack Jink)

True, but in the Index Marine Bikes were 31 points and Ravenwing Bikes were 32 points, so Jink was already in there for a 1 point increase. Is there a reason why DA Bikes would now cost 7 points more than other Chapters? Still, I see your point and I am planning to play my RW bikes from the Index. Its not a deal break for me (you don't play Ravenwing to win necessarily), but some clarity on what points we can take from the new Codex would be cool.

Cheers!

Since Ravenwing Bike Squad is a different unit name from the one in the Space Marine section of the Index (and the new codex), GW would need to specifically address that unit in a FAQ to change the point cost. Anything that is taken directly from the SM datasheets/wargear lists would match the SM costs. So shared weapons like Power Fists, and shared units like Tactical Squads and Inceptors. We can only hope that GW throws us a bone and reduces the cost of our similar units (like the aforementioned Ravenwing) to better match their vanilla counterparts.

How are people running their Ravenwing Huntmasters? Corvus Hammer or Power Sword? I was thinking the CH is a better fit, but just curious.