Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Terminators should have a 1+ save (a 1 still fails) and be able to fire twice each turn. This means ap 1 weapons are still saved on a 2+.

Plasma needs to be ap2 for the good of the game. All the reroll aura's make overcharging relatively painless.

 koooaei wrote:

jcd386 wrote:

Plasma wounds them on 2s now, so it is better than before.

It used to wound them on 2+ too. s7 vs t4 was 2+.

Oh yeah, good catch. I think my other points still stand though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

DarthDiggler wrote:
Terminators should have a 1+ save (a 1 still fails) and be able to fire twice each turn. This means ap 1 weapons are still saved on a 2+.

Plasma needs to be ap2 for the good of the game. All the reroll aura's make overcharging relatively painless.

This makes them too durable vs heavy bolters and so on IMO.

A few other problems that directly impact terminators (as well as a lot of space Marine melee units).
1. Lack of an extra attack from charging makes their melee damage output stink. It's kind of a big deal when you get two melee attacks instead of 3. Assault marines are even worse with their 1 base and 1 chainsword or if you have a regular marine with a power sword getting 1 swing.
2. Power fists (and klaws) suck vs vehicles. Doing the math it on average will take 15 power fist swings to take down a T7, 4+ armor vehicle and that is without any sort of invuln or FNP type save. Against T7 3+ armor it's roughly 18+ swings. Think about 7th and seeing 9 power fist terminators punching rhino. That rhino would of been dead multiple times over and yet in this edition it would barely die (below average rolls it would still be standing). PK nobz use to single handedly (it does have a zogging PK on it) rip tanks a new one due to how they hit rear armor and most vehicles are AV10 in the back (it's almost like the game was designed for vehicles to get murdered in melee).
3. -1 to hit in melee with power fist is an insane penalty when you combine the other factors above. Use to be a PK/fist would splat infantry and rip vehicles a new one but now it only sorta splats infantry (if it can hit and space marines can't even wound on a 2+ vs T5 or T6). Against non Walker vehicles terminators are hitting less often, less likely to get through their defenses, and doing a smaller % of the vehicles total health per successful attack than before.
4. Close combat in general favors units with volume of attacks and for an army like space marines taking weapons other than chainswords means you don't get the +1 attack from the chainswords (unless you swap out a pistol so you get for example your base attacks worth of power weapon and then 1 chainswords attack). Compare Vanguard vets with power weapons in 7th and now in 8th. Vets would have 2 attacks base, 1 from charging, 1 from two "melee" weapons which could include the pistol. 4 attacks on the charge (not assuming any HoW from jump packs) with a maul, sword, or axe. In 8th it's two attacks with a power weapon and maybe 1 attack with a chainsword if you don't take a pistol. For terminators it's less of an issue because they usually have fists, 2x claws, or TH/SS but as said earlier the lack of a bonus attack means a fairly large drop in damage output.

I know the arguement about hitting on 3's (unless PF) vs most things now will be made but 1 less attack when charging is still a net loss and it's especially bad when your already hitting most vehicles on a 3+ before this (and also hitting a lot of fodder units on 3+ as well). Swinging first can be very powerful but it loses its power when you lack the raw damage output to mulch a unit quickly. Swinging first doesn't matter when trying to kill a non Walker vehicle so it's a net lose all around.

 koooaei wrote:
Plasma has always been there to kill termies. In 5 it was mostly replaced by melta because of parking lots and in 7-th it wasn't as useful to someone with access to grav. If something, termies are around as durable vs plasma as they used to be, however plasma is much more common. As for HB, 2-wound termies with 3+ save are absolutely identical to 1-wound termies with 2+ save. Previous ap3 weapons that are mostly ap-2 now are probably the only weapon range that has become better vs termies. But there are not many weapons with ap-2.

Termies HAVE become better vs anti-infantry weapons without ap. 2 times more durable, in fact. So, that's what people really asked for, didn't they?

Thank you for understanding this. There are very few niche weapons like Autocannons and Gauss Blasters that they became less durable to, but they did overall gain durability.

Yeah, big choppas and autocannons have become around 60% better at killing termies. However, autocannons are pretty bad at most other things, so are not really that common and bigchoppas...well, if your termies are getting hit by orks in mellee, you're allready in enough trouble even before you factor in the BC.

 koooaei wrote:
Yeah, big choppas and autocannons have become around 60% better at killing termies. However, autocannons are pretty bad at most other things, so are not really that common and bigchoppas...well, if your termies are getting hit by orks in mellee, you're allready in enough trouble even before you factor in the BC.

Autocannons are more niche than before, compared to how they used to be basically a TAC weapon.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
Yeah, big choppas and autocannons have become around 60% better at killing termies. However, autocannons are pretty bad at most other things, so are not really that common and bigchoppas...well, if your termies are getting hit by orks in mellee, you're allready in enough trouble even before you factor in the BC.

Autocannons are more niche than before, compared to how they used to be basically a TAC weapon.

I disagree. Autocannons are almost more tac now than before, imo.

Martel732 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
Yeah, big choppas and autocannons have become around 60% better at killing termies. However, autocannons are pretty bad at most other things, so are not really that common and bigchoppas...well, if your termies are getting hit by orks in mellee, you're allready in enough trouble even before you factor in the BC.

Autocannons are more niche than before, compared to how they used to be basically a TAC weapon.

I disagree. Autocannons are almost more tac now than before, imo.

How are you figuring that?

I love how they mulch bikes and primaris for one thing.

48" range is $$$
-1 AP is $$$$$
2 damage is $$$$ (except against filthy waveserpents)

What's not to like?

Martel732 wrote:
48" range is $$$
-1 AP is $$$$$
2 damage is $$$$ (except against filthy waveserpents)

What's not to like?

I think people have a hard time swallowing S7.

Autocannons are good vs T3 - a little worse than HBs. T4 makes it harder to even out. But then they're much better vs T7 yet worse than S8+.

Pretty much the definition of TAC.

S7 is much better than people think. You don't need to wound marines on 2's. There aren't enough of them. T4 is not relevant to my battle plans, as most T4 units SUCK BALLS. Wouding marines on 3's at 48" and oneshotting primars and terminators is fine with me.

S7 chews up marines tanks, demon princes, tau vehicles, drukhari vehicles, eldar vehicles that aren't wave serpent, most greater demons, etc. It sucks vs the IG. I don't know what to do about that. I just don't.

They are pretty useful vs necrons and dark eldar too.

The more invulnerable saves there are, the better and better autocannons get. Flyrants? Here's 20 autocannons: where is 4++ now? I've faced 22 autocannons vs IG this edition. It was not a good time.

Martel732 wrote:
The more invulnerable saves there are, the better and better autocannons get. Flyrants? Here's 20 autocannons: where is 4++ now? I've faced 22 autocannons vs IG this edition. It was not a good time.

Bingo. It's part of why I love the Predator AC. Only -1, but then 3 damage on 2D3 shots...WHAP WHAP WHAP! That's hugely more stable than a lascannon.

I love the pred AC, but I hate the pred. Feth you marines!

Autocannons are alongside Heavy Bolters the bane of my Adeptus Custodes.

I shrug Plasma, Meltas or Lasscannons, but autocannons... ouch, they hurt. And don't get me started in Predator Autocannons nearby a Roboute Guilliman.

Autocannons are fantastic - 1 Ap the the sweet spot - lots of things have 3+ saves and 4++. Just enough AP to bring them to invo - then every failed save is 2 wounds. It's one reason I like playing with intercessors - to bad autocannons wreck them.

I stopped reading my own thread 5 pages back... erm, can someone update me?

 lolman1c wrote:
I stopped reading my own thread 5 pages back... erm, can someone update me?

Terminators are underpowered. A lot of that is likely due to a plasma stuffed meta. Maybe they'd be fine with less plasma about, but maybe not.

Basically the same as the first few pages

Yeah I'm in the Autocannons are actually pretty solid camp for there relative cheap points cost.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
Plasma has always been there to kill termies. In 5 it was mostly replaced by melta because of parking lots and in 7-th it wasn't as useful to someone with access to grav. If something, termies are around as durable vs plasma as they used to be, however plasma is much more common. As for HB, 2-wound termies with 3+ save are absolutely identical to 1-wound termies with 2+ save. Previous ap3 weapons that are mostly ap-2 now are probably the only weapon range that has become better vs termies. But there are not many weapons with ap-2.

Termies HAVE become better vs anti-infantry weapons without ap. 2 times more durable, in fact. So, that's what people really asked for, didn't they?

Thank you for understanding this. There are very few niche weapons like Autocannons and Gauss Blasters that they became less durable to, but they did overall gain durability.

Overall they lost durability because GW flooded the game with plasma.

It matters not if they are durable against other weapons when amount of anti-terminator guns went up the roof you don't NEED to bother shooting with other weapons.

It would be irrelevant if they had 100% immunity to non-plasma. Nobody needs to shoot anything but plasma at them which simply wipes them out.

tneva82 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
Plasma has always been there to kill termies. In 5 it was mostly replaced by melta because of parking lots and in 7-th it wasn't as useful to someone with access to grav. If something, termies are around as durable vs plasma as they used to be, however plasma is much more common. As for HB, 2-wound termies with 3+ save are absolutely identical to 1-wound termies with 2+ save. Previous ap3 weapons that are mostly ap-2 now are probably the only weapon range that has become better vs termies. But there are not many weapons with ap-2.

Termies HAVE become better vs anti-infantry weapons without ap. 2 times more durable, in fact. So, that's what people really asked for, didn't they?

Thank you for understanding this. There are very few niche weapons like Autocannons and Gauss Blasters that they became less durable to, but they did overall gain durability.

Overall they lost durability because GW flooded the game with plasma.

It matters not if they are durable against other weapons when amount of anti-terminator guns went up the roof you don't NEED to bother shooting with other weapons.

It would be irrelevant if they had 100% immunity to non-plasma. Nobody needs to shoot anything but plasma at them which simply wipes them out.

This is entirely relevant because people are proposing fixes to Terminators that improve their durability against non-plasma more than plasma. Pointing out they only need a durability buff vs plasma, and not other weapons in general, is therefore useful.

Of course, plasma needs a nerf/points cost increase, but a bit of a boost by Terminators against plasma would be good too.

Terminators also need a damage boost to make them dangerous, otherwise they'll just be tough but ignorable.

tneva82 wrote:

Overall they lost durability because GW flooded the game with plasma.

Actually, they've gained durability because grav is no longer as relevant. Termies vs plasma are bad. Termies vs grav were abysmal. And grav was everywhere.

So, in this regard, they have gained durability somewhat. Plazma IS the problem like grav used to be.

I sitll think the core problem is that they buffed Plas to S8 D2, giving the IoM the Tau/CWE Plasma profile as an option, then *buffed* that to S7.

If, instead, they kept the Safe Plas tech at the same stats, even while giving it to the IOM, without buffing the overcharge, we'd see a lot less Plas. And Melta Guns would actually have more to differentiate them.

Granted, other things may have needed to change too, in other armies, to balance it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
(and that version of the PG would still be effective.)

Bharring wrote:
I sitll think the core problem is that they buffed Plas to S8 D2, giving the IoM the Tau/CWE Plasma profile as an option, then *buffed* that to S7.

If, instead, they kept the Safe Plas tech at the same stats, even while giving it to the IOM, without buffing the overcharge, we'd see a lot less Plas. And Melta Guns would actually have more to differentiate them.

Granted, other things may have needed to change too, in other armies, to balance it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
(and that version of the PG would still be effective.)

Tau would like some of the S7 plasama love, still living in the S6 1d no overcharge plasma world.

Bharring wrote:
I sitll think the core problem is that they buffed Plas to S8 D2, giving the IoM the Tau/CWE Plasma profile as an option, then *buffed* that to S7.

If, instead, they kept the Safe Plas tech at the same stats, even while giving it to the IOM, without buffing the overcharge, we'd see a lot less Plas. And Melta Guns would actually have more to differentiate them.

Granted, other things may have needed to change too, in other armies, to balance it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
(and that version of the PG would still be effective.)

Meltaguns would still be crap. Quit trying to stick IoM with all the crap weapons. Melta could differentiate itself by doubling strength inside melta range, so it might actually wound a T8 target from time to time. Hellblasters already suck at S7/S8 as anti-tank option because of range problems.

Hellblasters as a concept don't make sence, that's not a reason to keep plasma over powered and under costed.
They also have an assualt rapid fire and heavy versions, but with the same profile they don't tailer to a target type and end up being meh at everything.
Assualt S6 1D no over heating
Rapid fire
Normal s6 1D no over heat
OverCharge S7 2D over heat
Heavy
Normal S7 1D no over heat
Over charge S8 D2 damage overheat
Plasma Cannons
Normal S7 1D no over heat
Overcharge S8 d3 damage overheat

I don't know. Plasma for marines seems about right. Flamers, grav and melta all seem overcosted.

Martel732 wrote:
I don't know. Plasma for marines seems about right. Flamers, grav and melta all seem overcosted.

Thats mainly because marines are overpaying for the chump carrying said plasma weapon, put them on almost any other platform and they shine, melta grav and flamers are overcosted. But untill plasma is brought into line its still going to be plasma special weapon spam galore.