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The biggest plasma offenders I see are elysians and scions. Both need substantial point increases for reasons other than plasma.

Plasma also suffers badly vs -1 to hit from any source.

I've also accepted that terminators have never worked because the eggs-in-one-basket problem. And probably never will.

tneva82 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
Plasma has always been there to kill termies. In 5 it was mostly replaced by melta because of parking lots and in 7-th it wasn't as useful to someone with access to grav. If something, termies are around as durable vs plasma as they used to be, however plasma is much more common. As for HB, 2-wound termies with 3+ save are absolutely identical to 1-wound termies with 2+ save. Previous ap3 weapons that are mostly ap-2 now are probably the only weapon range that has become better vs termies. But there are not many weapons with ap-2.

Termies HAVE become better vs anti-infantry weapons without ap. 2 times more durable, in fact. So, that's what people really asked for, didn't they?

Thank you for understanding this. There are very few niche weapons like Autocannons and Gauss Blasters that they became less durable to, but they did overall gain durability.

Overall they lost durability because GW flooded the game with plasma.

It matters not if they are durable against other weapons when amount of anti-terminator guns went up the roof you don't NEED to bother shooting with other weapons.

It would be irrelevant if they had 100% immunity to non-plasma. Nobody needs to shoot anything but plasma at them which simply wipes them out.

It's the same durability to plasma, and in fact if it isn't overcharged...they're more durable than they used to be.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

It's the same durability to plasma, and in fact if it isn't overcharged...they're more durable than they used to be.

Slightly less durable vs plasma now than in 7th. Plasma was S7 AP2, which defaulted terminators to their invuln like now. Only it wounded less often.

It wounded on a 2. Just like now.

Martel732 wrote:
It wounded on a 2. Just like now.

Doh - you're right. I forgot the wound table changed. Doubling out was for instadeath.

Plasma wasn't anti-terminator in 2nd, though. It's weird that they added another anti-terminator weapon in 3rd. Plasma went from -2 armor save in 2nd to AP 2. I was like WTF?

Give them 3 wounds. Problem solved without having to rework anything else in the game. And don't change the points when you add the wound.

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:
Give them 3 wounds. Problem solved without having to rework anything else in the game. And don't change the points when you add the wound.

Then what about Paladins? Meganobz? Custodes?

You'd have to adjust them for that too.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:
Give them 3 wounds. Problem solved without having to rework anything else in the game. And don't change the points when you add the wound.

Then what about Paladins? Meganobz? Custodes?

You'd have to adjust them for that too.

No you don't we are proposing a fix for terminators not the entire edition.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Then what about Paladins? Meganobz? Custodes?

You'd have to adjust them for that too.

It would apply to the GK too, obviously, but for others in the TEQ bracket, why? We're trying to fix terminators, if other things are in a good place they don't need adjusting.

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Then what about Paladins? Meganobz? Custodes?

You'd have to adjust them for that too.

It would apply to the GK too, obviously, but for others in the TEQ bracket, why? We're trying to fix terminators, if other things are in a good place they don't need adjusting.

Ya know, consistency is supposed to be a thing.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Then what about Paladins? Meganobz? Custodes?

You'd have to adjust them for that too.

It would apply to the GK too, obviously, but for others in the TEQ bracket, why? We're trying to fix terminators, if other things are in a good place they don't need adjusting.

Ya know, consistency is supposed to be a thing.

Consistency is already pretty wack I mean we got stuff like IG vets shooting as good as SM vets and necrons losing shot for shot with fire warriors.

Meganobz are much worse than regular termies even now. Termies at least have a niche.

-1 damage to a minimum of 1 is still the besy suggestion. If wave serpents can have then why cant termis?

I don't think defensive stats are the problem - although you could argue they pay too much.

The real issue is they do terrible damage. Their shooting is practically a joke for their points cost, and their melee ability gets worse and worse with almost every new codex released.

In a game all about alpha strikes, a unit which drops down, maybe gets off a charge, and expects to do a small fraction of their points cost isn't very good. Then you just shoot it - because for their points Terminators are not tough. With a damage 1 AP 1 weapon they are no tougher than Marines.

I'd adjust points downward before trying to add rules.

That works for most stuff - instead of fundamentally changing plasma, just make flamers and meltas cheaper. So cheap that taking them is worth it.

 Bromsy wrote:
I'd adjust points downward before trying to add rules.

That works for most stuff - instead of fundamentally changing plasma, just make flamers and meltas cheaper. So cheap that taking them is worth it.

Making them cheaper didn't work in 7th and it won't work now. They need a fundamental fix to their core. That's why I always vote for BS/WS2+ and then look at how to adjust their price. This would be my fix for any Terminator outside the troop Grey Knight ones, who really just need the point decrease.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Bromsy wrote:
I'd adjust points downward before trying to add rules.

That works for most stuff - instead of fundamentally changing plasma, just make flamers and meltas cheaper. So cheap that taking them is worth it.

Making them cheaper didn't work in 7th and it won't work now. They need a fundamental fix to their core. That's why I always vote for BS/WS2+ and then look at how to adjust their price. This would be my fix for any Terminator outside the troop Grey Knight ones, who really just need the point decrease.

Making them cheaper would work though at some point people would start running them. Maybe it would be stupidly low like 20 points or less but still once they are cheap enough they would get run.

 mew28 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Bromsy wrote:
I'd adjust points downward before trying to add rules.

That works for most stuff - instead of fundamentally changing plasma, just make flamers and meltas cheaper. So cheap that taking them is worth it.

Making them cheaper didn't work in 7th and it won't work now. They need a fundamental fix to their core. That's why I always vote for BS/WS2+ and then look at how to adjust their price. This would be my fix for any Terminator outside the troop Grey Knight ones, who really just need the point decrease.

Making them cheaper would work though at some point people would start running them. Maybe it would be stupidly low like 20 points or less but still once they are cheap enough they would get run.

At some point you step on other unit choices though. That's why I'd rather just adjust the WS/BS first and then adjust the point cost as necessary.

They need a defense boost and a offense boost

Defense boosts could be +1 wound, armor save of 1+, convert the invul to a 5+ FNP, -1 dmg taken (minimum 1), etc

Offense could be +1 attack to make up for the lost charge, ability to shoot in close combat, no penalties for moving and firing heavy and assault weapons after advancing (why did we lose Relentless??).

If they got one of each of these, they probably wouldn't need much in the way of point changes. It would be nice to see some changes in regards to wargear though. They should definitely ignore the powerfist to hit penalty. And it would be nice if Chaos terminators could take a second heavy in 5 guys to match the Cyclone and give an alternative to combi spam. The Reaper autocannon also needs a huge point drop and D2. It should be viable to use them as mobile heavy weapon platforms that are also so tough that they are inefficient to shoot at without the right weaponry.

Could also buff them with a stratagem. Its not necessarily the prettiest option but strategems aren't going away and they can add interesting options to use. They also add intrinsic value to the unit if the strategem is good enough.

One just off the top of my head - Emperor's Bulwark 1CP:
Use this strategem when a unit of terminators is the target of a shooting attack. This unit of terminators gains +1 to their save and reduce all incoming damage by 1, to a minimum of 1 for the remainder of this phase.

Or - Priority Termination - 2 CP
Use this strategem at the end of the movement phase, after any reserves have been placed. Select a model within 12" of a unit of terminators. During the shooting phase the terminators may shoot at that unit twice. During the assault phase the terminators may reroll charges against that target. The terminators may not shoot or charge any other units unless the initial target has been destroyed.

1. Remove the -1 to hit for the power fist - the suit is built around it

2. any weapons doing 1-5 damage only does a single wound on a failed save

3. allow the 5++ invun to work against mortal wounds (a 3++ becomes a 5++ in this case)

4. Terminators ignore the first 2 points of AP

make them seriously hard to remove, without making them higher in damage output

Vilehydra wrote:
Could also buff them with a stratagem. Its not necessarily the prettiest option but strategems aren't going away and they can add interesting options to use. They also add intrinsic value to the unit if the strategem is good enough.

One just off the top of my head - Emperor's Bulwark 1CP:
Use this strategem when a unit of terminators is the target of a shooting attack. This unit of terminators gains +1 to their save and reduce all incoming damage by 1, to a minimum of 1 for the remainder of this phase.

Or - Priority Termination - 2 CP
Use this strategem at the end of the movement phase, after any reserves have been placed. Select a model within 12" of a unit of terminators. During the shooting phase the terminators may shoot at that unit twice. During the assault phase the terminators may reroll charges against that target. The terminators may not shoot or charge any other units unless the initial target has been destroyed.

I really enjoy these.

Vilehydra wrote:
Could also buff them with a stratagem. Its not necessarily the prettiest option but strategems aren't going away and they can add interesting options to use. They also add intrinsic value to the unit if the strategem is good enough.

One just off the top of my head - Emperor's Bulwark 1CP:
Use this strategem when a unit of terminators is the target of a shooting attack. This unit of terminators gains +1 to their save and reduce all incoming damage by 1, to a minimum of 1 for the remainder of this phase.

Or - Priority Termination - 2 CP
Use this strategem at the end of the movement phase, after any reserves have been placed. Select a model within 12" of a unit of terminators. During the shooting phase the terminators may shoot at that unit twice. During the assault phase the terminators may reroll charges against that target. The terminators may not shoot or charge any other units unless the initial target has been destroyed.

Both these strats would be fun, but we need a solution that doesn't cost CP too. If they're only worthwhile when you're spending CP on them, then they're still not worthwhile.

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:

Vilehydra wrote:
Could also buff them with a stratagem. Its not necessarily the prettiest option but strategems aren't going away and they can add interesting options to use. They also add intrinsic value to the unit if the strategem is good enough.

One just off the top of my head - Emperor's Bulwark 1CP:
Use this strategem when a unit of terminators is the target of a shooting attack. This unit of terminators gains +1 to their save and reduce all incoming damage by 1, to a minimum of 1 for the remainder of this phase.

Or - Priority Termination - 2 CP
Use this strategem at the end of the movement phase, after any reserves have been placed. Select a model within 12" of a unit of terminators. During the shooting phase the terminators may shoot at that unit twice. During the assault phase the terminators may reroll charges against that target. The terminators may not shoot or charge any other units unless the initial target has been destroyed.

Both these strats would be fun, but we need a solution that doesn't cost CP too. If they're only worthwhile when you're spending CP on them, then they're still not worthwhile.

Those are pretty great Strategems for someone who wants to use termies!

That said, if people complain about +1 to wound, look at Custodes; 4 wound terminators obviously work really well. So instead of making everyone else the same as them, bumping 1 wound isn't that big of a deal for all TEQ's that aren't custodes... they still won't be AS good, but they will be better. I really think Deathwing needs a lot of work, though.... custodes is exactly what that army should be.

 Drudge Dreadnought wrote:

Vilehydra wrote:
Could also buff them with a stratagem. Its not necessarily the prettiest option but strategems aren't going away and they can add interesting options to use. They also add intrinsic value to the unit if the strategem is good enough.

One just off the top of my head - Emperor's Bulwark 1CP:
Use this strategem when a unit of terminators is the target of a shooting attack. This unit of terminators gains +1 to their save and reduce all incoming damage by 1, to a minimum of 1 for the remainder of this phase.

Or - Priority Termination - 2 CP
Use this strategem at the end of the movement phase, after any reserves have been placed. Select a model within 12" of a unit of terminators. During the shooting phase the terminators may shoot at that unit twice. During the assault phase the terminators may reroll charges against that target. The terminators may not shoot or charge any other units unless the initial target has been destroyed.

Both these strats would be fun, but we need a solution that doesn't cost CP too. If they're only worthwhile when you're spending CP on them, then they're still not worthwhile.

I disagree. Increasing the versatility of a unit increases the possible effectiveness of that unit. If I wanted to double the effective shooting of my terminators without the strategem, I have to pay for 5 more terminators. There are situations where doubling the the amount of SB shots will be effective, vs a unit of guardsmen or firewarriors for example. Then there are times that the increase will be ineffective. By being able to choose to increase that effectiveness in game the units are much more adaptable. Otherwise I would've had to buy an additional terminator squad before the game starts. This is far less adaptable.

Being able to adapt to an enemy list in game is a valuable skill, stratagems like this help increase adaptability by allowing an increase in effectiveness during the game.

Also on a side note, I just read the terminator entry and teleport homer seems like it could be a very useful tool. Setup a teleport homer on a backfield objective, use the terminators aggressively and should they survive but lose several models, relegate them to backfield objective holding which frees up other pieces of the army.

Another thought to deal with the issue of low Terminator damage output. If they are made sufficiently tough (with various suggestions that could work, I think the -1 damage to a minimum of one, or +1 wound would work best), then the other option is to use the FW Horus Heresy approach and make Terminators able to hold objectives better than currently. Give them an Objective secured-style ability, perhaps one that is a bit more effective than the standard version, and make them suited to dropping in, holding an objective, and weathering the return fire. Having the damage potential sufficient to remove typical objective holders (troops) would be enough for this role if the durability is sufficient. I still feel some small damage boosts, like removing heavy weapon movement penalties and the hit penalties for power fists, would be a good idea.

Having a special rule for TDA to ignore unwieldy seems excessive, could probably just drop unwieldy from all powerfists everywhere. TDA exclusive rule would be an exception to an exception, and I don't that whole extra line on the terminator dataslate.

Potentially you could move an inverse rule onto power swords. Fists can hit normally, but models with power swords force a model in base contact to take -1 to hit.

pelicaniforce wrote:
Having a special rule for TDA to ignore unwieldy seems excessive, could probably just drop unwieldy from all powerfists everywhere. TDA exclusive rule would be an exception to an exception, and I don't that whole extra line on the terminator dataslate.

Potentially you could move an inverse rule onto power swords. Fists can hit normally, but models with power swords force a model in base contact to take -1 to hit.

You guys are making it over complicated.

WS/BS2+. Done.

I did see you post that a few times already.