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Guys, I don't think some people understand what "model rockets" mean today. We're not just talking about cardboard tubes with packed black powder rockets.
Have a look at this video and see what a couple thousand dollars and some expertise can do today...
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/01/06 07:23:28
"I learned the hard way that if you take a stand on any issue, no matter how insignificant, people will line up around the block to kick your ass over it." Jesse "the mind" Ventura.
Howard A Treesong wrote: I honestly don’t see that working for lots of reasons. Even if it did know to fly towards a radio signal, how would it know when to detonate or burst? It might just be better to build a drone that has a bit more protection on it and ram the other drone.
I used to make model rockets and the motors typically used in those only give a second or so burst (which is longer than it sounds, small ones go quite high and then blow away on the wind if you’ve a decent parachute, so you lose your model).
But a big rocket really wouldn’t go very far at all, not in terms of an airport. Also any added weight, like explosives or some form of shrapnel, which really hits any distance they can achieve. And they tend to go in a straight line very rapidly, meaning a bigger motor just makes it go further/faster in a straight line, but either way it wouldn't have a lot of time to manoeuvre in the right direction, the window of time between it taking off and being near it’s target is going to be tiny, it’s just not going to steer anywhere effectively. Most rockets only steer to correct their course a little they aren’t good over short distances. Their flight is strongly determined by a gust of wind too, and once the rocket burst is gone they fall pretty much plummet and as they don’t glide so you can’t pilot them towards a drone on their decent either.
Sorry Ouze, I think it would be incredibly difficult to build an effective ground-air missile from off the shelf components, I imagine it could be done worth a big budget but there just has to be more cost effective ways.
Yeah, probably. As someone else said if it were possible someone would have done it already. This isn't something I know that much about.
A drone that just flies into the other drone would probably work better.
lord_blackfang wrote: Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.
Flinty wrote: The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock
Guys, I don't think some people understand what "model rockets" mean today. We're not just talking about cardboard tubes with packed black powder rockets.
Have a look at this video and see what a couple thousand dollars and some expertise can do today...
And what good is spending thousands on launching a six foot rocket to nearly 100,000 feet when you’re trying to take out a relatively tiny low level drone? It’s the wrong technology, it’s not going to work for this purpose, making it bigger with more fuel isn’t better.
Think simple, ram with another drone, have a guy throw a boomerang at it. They’re fairly fragile things, you don’t need to shoot it with a stinger.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/01/06 14:28:55
Restricted sales, Licencing. Some form of geo loacted go home signal as standard, on site jamming/spoofing.
Probably more effective and less news worthy - and thus panic making - than having a stood up 24/7 rocket battalion on a civil airport just waiting for the needle in a haystack to be spotted so they can be turned loose.
(After appropriate assessment of meteorological conditions).
I imagine rocket stages coming back down to earth to be more of a hazard than a flying drone.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/01/06 15:35:36
Guys, I don't think some people understand what "model rockets" mean today. We're not just talking about cardboard tubes with packed black powder rockets.
Have a look at this video and see what a couple thousand dollars and some expertise can do today...
And what good is spending thousands on launching a six foot rocket to nearly 100,000 feet when you’re trying to take out a relatively tiny low level drone? It’s the wrong technology, it’s not going to work for this purpose, making it bigger with more fuel isn’t better.
Think simple, ram with another drone, have a guy throw a boomerang at it. They’re fairly fragile things, you don’t need to shoot it with a stinger.
I wasn't thinking of using a model rocket to take out a drone. People are concerned what a drone could do to a plane near an airport. Let's not forget some of these model rockets have the rnfe and speed to go after a plane anywhere. That's the point I was making. A drone could be a danger to a plane near an airport, a real bad guy can go after a plane anywhere. If we're really concerned about airplanes being targets drones are only part of the problem.
"I learned the hard way that if you take a stand on any issue, no matter how insignificant, people will line up around the block to kick your ass over it." Jesse "the mind" Ventura.
The difference with a drone is that any idiot can buy one off the shelf and because they practically fly themselves, the idiot doesn't need to put in much effort and time to get good enough to use the drone for some kind of interference manoeuvre at an airport.
Kilkrazy wrote: The difference with a drone is that any idiot can buy one off the shelf and because they practically fly themselves, the idiot doesn't need to put in much effort and time to get good enough to use the drone for some kind of interference manoeuvre at an airport.
True, dat. I guess the real security nightmare is when any idiot having a bad day can get hold of devices that make him a danger. I mean, a terrorist group can be hunted for, tracked and whacked.
The proverbial "lone nut" can come out of nowhere.
You know, not to trivialize real issues but stuff like this makes you see why in 40k the imperium stictly controls technology..
"I learned the hard way that if you take a stand on any issue, no matter how insignificant, people will line up around the block to kick your ass over it." Jesse "the mind" Ventura.
Kilkrazy wrote: The difference with a drone is that any idiot can buy one off the shelf and because they practically fly themselves, the idiot doesn't need to put in much effort and time to get good enough to use the drone for some kind of interference manoeuvre at an airport.
True, dat. I guess the real security nightmare is when any idiot having a bad day can get hold of devices that make him a danger. I mean, a terrorist group can be hunted for, tracked and whacked.
The proverbial "lone nut" can come out of nowhere.
You know, not to trivialize real issues but stuff like this makes you see why in 40k the imperium stictly controls technology..
I cant think if any situation where a 'lone nut' would decide that a satisfactory objective is to fly a drone into commercial airspace for the purposes of preventing take off and landing. Or with thought of causing fatalities.
Someone had their luggage lost by an airline and believes they stole it. Someone believes airplanes are bringing in too many dang furriners, someone got bumped from a flight that was important to him, someone feels the government is persecuting him by keeping him from flying, someone got laid off from an airline...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/01/06 23:07:27
"I learned the hard way that if you take a stand on any issue, no matter how insignificant, people will line up around the block to kick your ass over it." Jesse "the mind" Ventura.
All these cellphones and no one gets a video of the drone...
"I learned the hard way that if you take a stand on any issue, no matter how insignificant, people will line up around the block to kick your ass over it." Jesse "the mind" Ventura.
War Drone wrote: 1st Para, I felt a "twinge" of sympathy (I've had FAR worse)
2nd Para, I really thought "Yay for Xeno! Happy!"
3rd Para, it kind of felt like you got your junk out and smeared it all over the inside of my forearms without me knowing ...
I am unsure which orkmote to choose ...
It wasn't that bad because I had a lot of fun in Dublin. Still a huge pain.
Saw some pictures in the paper with English soldiers would shoulder mounted rocket launchers patrolling an airport...Like seriously - you don't need that kind of firepower LOL. Had some laughs at a pub with some nice guys from England showing a video of a drone being destroyed flying over a football match via a roll of toliet paper
. Sorry for disgusting you in such a way but do you really think it's reasonable that a 1500 dollar remote controlled aircraft should be shutting down large international airports?
War Drone wrote: 1st Para, I felt a "twinge" of sympathy (I've had FAR worse)
2nd Para, I really thought "Yay for Xeno! Happy!"
3rd Para, it kind of felt like you got your junk out and smeared it all over the inside of my forearms without me knowing ...
I am unsure which orkmote to choose ...
It wasn't that bad because I had a lot of fun in Dublin. Still a huge pain.
Saw some pictures in the paper with English soldiers would shoulder mounted rocket launchers patrolling an airport...Like seriously - you don't need that kind of firepower LOL. Had some laughs at a pub with some nice guys from England showing a video of a drone being destroyed flying over a football match via a roll of toliet paper
. Sorry for disgusting you in such a way but do you really think it's reasonable that a 1500 dollar remote controlled aircraft should be shutting down large international airports?
Who said I felt disgusted?
Got the sense from your post - my mistake.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kilkrazy wrote: Gatwick and Heathrow Airports have announced they are going to purchase military-grade anti-drone technology, according to the BBC yesterday (4th Jan.)
I don't think new legislation is needed. The law already provides for five year's imprisonment for flying a drone into unauthorised airspace, and life for interfering with air safety and endangering life.
There is now a new licensing code for professional level drone equipment and operator training. It would be sensible to adopt this into law, however it is being adopted anyway by responsible professional drone companies. It's unrealistic to think about mandatory training and licensing for private individuals buying £100 drones from Curry's.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I'm trying to imagine what the idea anti-drone technology should look like in operation.
At the moment I envision a vicious bright laser beam, which lashes out and explodes the drone into a ball of smoking fragments.
Anyone got any other dramatic ideas?
That would certainly do the trick but I think it's going overboard just a bit. A few military grade drones with the right weaponry would be more than sufficient. Perhaps a net designed to snare drones or some kind of rapid fire rubber bullet launcher would probably get the job done a lot cheaper. Maybe a Gatling bb launcher. Drones are very fragile.
All these cellphones and no one gets a video of the drone...
large airports need to toughen up IMO. At the very least they should not shut down unless airport staff have witnessed the drone.
Do airports shut down if flocks of geese have been sighted in the area? They are equally if not more dangerous than a drone.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/01/09 03:47:41
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
Do airports shut down if flocks of geese have been sighted in the area? They are equally if not more dangerous than a drone.
Yes they most likely do shut down. However geese are typically going to be passing through so the shut down period is much shorter. The news is also less likely to report on it because its just regular life and the disruption is typically short. Furthermore airports make extensive use of a wide variety of bird deterrent measures such as flying their own falcons to scare away birds; playing alarm calls; loud random sounds and other elements - often varying them as any disruption that remains constant will eventually be ignored if it poses no actual threat.
A drone on the other hand is a deliberate act and if its operators intention is disruption then its likely to hang around for a long while. Furthermore it won't get "scared off" by the airport falconer or by a bird scarer. Plus the drone can act in an intentionally dangerous manner whilst a bird is accidental (a bird has no intention to get sucked into the engines at all; it does not want to be there it ends up there by accidental collision. A disruptive drone is totally different and the operator could aim for the engines).
Plus airports have always had to contend with birds and so they've got experience and measures in place. They likely know general behaviour patterns so they might see geese flying over and know that they have to shut Runway 1 for a while, but can keep the others open etc... Or just wait 10 mins and the birds will be long gone over the horizon etc.... A drone is new, they don't know what to do with it; don't have practised and proven measures against it.
Finally with a bird you don't need to catch it; with a drone you want to catch the operator if at all possible; which means more reason to keep the drone in the air so that here's a chance of tracking the operator.
large airports need to toughen up IMO. At the very least they should not shut down unless airport staff have witnessed the drone.
The risks are severe. No one wants to get that call wrong.
Do airports shut down if flocks of geese have been sighted in the area? They are equally if not more dangerous than a drone.
As I understand it, they postpone takeoffs and landings whilst birds are in their airspace - it's just that flocks of birds tend to pass overhead quickly and those delays are minutes at most.
Xenomancers wrote: Do airports shut down if flocks of geese have been sighted in the area? They are equally if not more dangerous than a drone.
Not true at all. Birds are a threat, but aircraft engines are designed to survive a bird strike. The same is not necessarily true of a drone with a metal frame instead of feathers and fragile bones, even ignoring the possibility that the drone is carrying a bomb. And, unlike low-altitude birds, the drone can position itself anywhere in the plane's flight path so the threat exists for more than a few seconds.
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
large airports need to toughen up IMO. At the very least they should not shut down unless airport staff have witnessed the drone.
The risks are severe. No one wants to get that call wrong.
Toughen up...Yeah right...Imagine amount of money they would have to pay as compensation for ignoring danger and keep going on. "We were tough ROAAAARGH!". That's going to comfort relatives of dead people.
I understand the frustration of the 150,000 passengers whose journeys were disrupted, and it's easy to point the flinger at the airport authorities for not having anticipated and prepared for a drone disruption attack.
That said, you can imagine the public reaction if flying continued, and a heavily loaded airliner got a drone in its engine and crashed in flames on top of a local hospital.
Obviously a much worse scenario for everyone!
I've read a number of SF and adventure books which have some idea about a new technology which is too potentially dangerous to allow the general public to have access to it just for fun. Perhaps we really have reached that kind of point now.
Regulating drones seems like a difficult task to me because the requisite parts to make a drone are simple and can be sold individually and assembled by a kid in his parents garage in an afternoon, and you don’t want to have to regulate all the components individually.
It’ll stop casuals flying them for fear of fines, but not sure it’d have a meaningful impact on security.
I don't think regulation would work either, except to stop the casuals.
I just mean that maybe we have gone past an inflection point and the idiots are going to ruin everything and nothing can stop it.
Or maybe Heathrow will install an Israeli military anti-drone laser system, and fry the next one that gets in. Maybe the police will find the people doing these fly-bys, and they will be prosecuted and get five years.
In general that's all you ever want to stop with these sort of measures
(just like the locks on your door won't actually keep out somebody determined to get in but will hopefully keep out the local kids, vagrants, causal thieves etc)
think at this stage the only options really are to find appropriate reactions, as prevention is really not an option as stated already. dedicated anti drone technology and personnel with the right equipment need to be deployed at each airport to tackle any marauding sky trash. Ideally you'd want some static jammers and a couple of vehicle mounted ones, with a patrol section, and a response section on notice to respond to shouts.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/01/10 12:22:47
Just keep in mind that jammers only work against the idiots who buy a cheap drone and think it would be funny to go fly with the real planes, and those people are already dealt with by geofencing. If someone has enough technical ability to build their own drones it's trivially easy to make it fully autonomous with no control signals to jam. At best you might be able to jam its GPS reception and prevent it from holding an accurate position in the approach/departure path, if it hasn't been equipped with any inertial navigation backup, but the massive safety problems with that idea should be obvious.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/01/10 12:35:38
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
Around here, the smaller airports sometimes hire Falconers to chase away birds(just like the nearby vineyards). They have a short 30 minute period of no flights, and let the falcon fly around abit. Maybe catch a couple birds. Repeat a couple weeks later.
The birds learn real quick to avoid the airport and vineyards.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
Heresy World Eaters/Emperors Children 