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 Pacific wrote:
Absolutely unacceptable that this has gone on for so long now. And very typical that something like this has to happen before any kind of reactionary process is put in place. I'm actually amazed it hasn't happened before now.

Check my post earlier, I wager part of the reason its gone on so long is because they want to actually catch who is doing it, which means having the drones in the air so they can track them. A measure made hard by the fact that airports are huge and the drone only has to zoom over once every so often to keep the planes grounded (and as they've come back over and over they've got to catch or have a long window to avoid the chance that they zoom the drone back over after giving an all clear - which would leave to even more chaos).

If those deploying the drones are using a vehicle they could easily be deploying and moving around whilst the drone is in the air and then collecting it at a new spot etc... So its even harder to keep track and try and catch them - esp if they are flying it long distance into the airport to start with.

Tracking such small flying vehicles is just not something most police forces are going to be equipped for in the least beyond giving everyone a pair of binoculars and sweeping the sky.

 Skinnereal wrote:

 War Drone wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Just makes them a higher priority for thieves.

BBC News are reporting these are thought to be 'industrial' drones, larger than those Joe Public might have access to.

So who would stand to benefit?

Train companies, Ferry operators, environmentalists, anarchists, anti-Western or anti-capitalist groups.

Other governments? Disrupting a transport hub at one of the busiest times of the year seems like an effective form of easily deniable economic warfare.

 Elemental wrote:

 Skinnereal wrote:

 War Drone wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Just makes them a higher priority for thieves.

BBC News are reporting these are thought to be 'industrial' drones, larger than those Joe Public might have access to.

So who would stand to benefit?

Train companies, Ferry operators, environmentalists, anarchists, anti-Western or anti-capitalist groups.

Other governments? Disrupting a transport hub at one of the busiest times of the year seems like an effective form of easily deniable economic warfare.

Thing is this isn't just going to hit the UK - its going to hit every other airport that sends/receives aircraft from that airport. The only kind of government that would benefit would be one that has no international flight through that airport - so we are pretty much down to either fringe political (terrorist) groups and countries like N.Korea.

Thing is this is really local; if it were another country doing this I'd have expected them to hit more airports- either in one country or multiple countries at once. This could still be really local level - eg people protesting the new runway and other construction work and hoping that if they cause enough disruption it will go away (or more likely they just want to "flip the bird" at them in a way that seriously hurts).

Its funny how they have nothing to shoot the drones down with, but if they had just sent someone to the hardware store they could have whipped up a Potato Cannon that shoots nets in the course of an afternoon.

It could possibly be someone who wants drones banned. It's certainly a good way to go about it.

 queen_annes_revenge wrote:
It could possibly be someone who wants drones banned. It's certainly a good way to go about it.

Expensive way to go about it. Especially when Drone enthusiasts themselves do stupid stuff like this all the time. No need to run a false flag operation.

Its probably some idiot who wants close up footage of planes taking off and landing for their blog or something.

Ever since militaries started using drones for conventional warfare it has only been a matter of time before non state actors started using them for asymetrical warfare.

There should be tighter regulation on them, obviously. A license to own them, at least, and a way to track them to their owner. That all seems feasible, along with the Geofencing thing. Other types can simply be banned from sale with immediate effect, there is no reason to risk this crap for a hobby.

Whoever is doing this is incredibly selfish. I hope they are caught and get the book thrown at them.

I'm convinced it's something "really sinister"..

Whoever it is, they've been doing it now for almost 24 hours, undiscovered (I mean the perpetrators, of course), with the pressure of knowing it's HUGE news, the police are after them - now apparently also the Army - and plenty of "good ol' boys" would like nothing better than to give them a ... "robust talking to"

That says a LOT about them in terms of their commitment, planning and nerves.

Actually its not that complex a setup - couple of dones, a car and a handful of people. Even if the drones are "industrial" all that means is that they aren't sold down your local highstreet store. You can probably buy them very easily with a few moments googling up the make and model (provided they are not expired models of course). Price might be an issue, but there again they could be stolen/old stock/redundant/second hand or even ex display models etc...


I would say its middle of the row at present in terms of hostility. It's disruptive more than it is dangerous. If they wanted to cause harm and danger that would be very easily (and scarily so). Just fly the drones at random times not continuous over a single day and fly them into the air intakes. Heck if its industrial and thus larger get it to carry something big and chunky to really mess up the plane or such.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
I should have thought they could put police marksmen with shotguns on a helicopter, fly above the drone, then shoot down at it so that any missing pellets would hit the ground rather than an aircraft or building.

Is that a serious comment?

Eventually we will have the first drone based terrorist attack in a western country and everyone will freak out.

 Excommunicatus wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
I should have thought they could put police marksmen with shotguns on a helicopter, fly above the drone, then shoot down at it so that any missing pellets would hit the ground rather than an aircraft or building.

Is that a serious comment?

I actually think just flying a good-sized helicopter over the top of the drone would have the same outcome.

Over 100,000 people delayed now apparently.

I know I shouldn't ...

 Overread wrote:
Actually its not that complex a setup - couple of dones, a car and a handful of people. Even if the drones are "industrial" all that means is that they aren't sold down your local highstreet store. You can probably buy them very easily with a few moments googling up the make and model (provided they are not expired models of course). Price might be an issue, but there again they could be stolen/old stock/redundant/second hand or even ex display models etc...


I would say its middle of the row at present in terms of hostility. It's disruptive more than it is dangerous. If they wanted to cause harm and danger that would be very easily (and scarily so). Just fly the drones at random times not continuous over a single day and fly them into the air intakes. Heck if its industrial and thus larger get it to carry something big and chunky to really mess up the plane or such.

I agree. If these people wanted to crash into a plane, they would have done that. They are inflicting economic damage by shutting down the airport.

It's odd that no-one has claimed responsibility. If you were an anti-runway protestor, as a political action it's pointless to do something like this and not announce the reasons why.

Going back to the practicalities, if I wanted to do this kind of attack, I would get an old Transit box van and make a hatch in the roof. The drones could be flown in and out, and you could move around to different locations to confuse the police. Or maybe two vans, with two drones in each. You would need four to six people and the budget would be in the range of low tens of thousands.

 Kilkrazy wrote:

 Overread wrote:
Actually its not that complex a setup - couple of dones, a car and a handful of people. Even if the drones are "industrial" all that means is that they aren't sold down your local highstreet store. You can probably buy them very easily with a few moments googling up the make and model (provided they are not expired models of course). Price might be an issue, but there again they could be stolen/old stock/redundant/second hand or even ex display models etc...


I would say its middle of the row at present in terms of hostility. It's disruptive more than it is dangerous. If they wanted to cause harm and danger that would be very easily (and scarily so). Just fly the drones at random times not continuous over a single day and fly them into the air intakes. Heck if its industrial and thus larger get it to carry something big and chunky to really mess up the plane or such.

I agree. If these people wanted to crash into a plane, they would have done that. They are inflicting economic damage by shutting down the airport.

It's odd that no-one has claimed responsibility. If you were an anti-runway protestor, as a political action it's pointless to do something like this and not announce the reasons why.

Going back to the practicalities, if I wanted to do this kind of attack, I would get an old Transit box van and make a hatch in the roof. The drones could be flown in and out, and you could move around to different locations to confuse the police. Or maybe two vans, with two drones in each. You would need four to six people and the budget would be in the range of low tens of thousands.

Aye, but surely at this point someone would have noticed where the drones keep flying to. The cops could even get one of their own and follow the offenders.

Modern industrial drones can only fly for an hour, tops. But they have a range of MILES. You could easily be swapping out between a guy off site in the brush somewhere, and a mobile vehicle that can move around the airport.

[url]https://www.amazon.com/PowerVision-PowerEye-Professional-Imaging-Quadcopter/dp/B0758DLRBW/ref=asc_df_B0758DLRBW/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=241969730126&hvpos=1o8&hvnetw=g&hvrand=11829804626822869623&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9007365&hvtargid=aud-466346483690:pla-593490482620&psc=1
[/url]

This one is $3,000, and has a range of 5k.

Aye a couple of £3K drones, a £500-1000 transit van* and a couple of people to operate and perhaps a driver so you can even move the control point around as you're flying. If you've got a few kilometres range that makes for a huge area to search and police.

And those are new prices for the drones, any second hand market would be cheaper. Cheaper still if anyone in the team can repair drones and thus can pick up broken/damage stock for even less or just parts prices.

*It's only got the last the day or two and if bought cash-in-hand might not even generate enough of a papertrail to follow. If they wanted to be really smart some false plates might help too. It's the only traceable item in the setup at present so make it dirt cheap and dump it after.



I do agree its odd that no one is making any noise and claiming this. Then again if its a really small group they might be totally focused on this and on not making a noise about it. Perhaps they hope to make a noise later if they escape or are caught - either way can give them platform.

We also can't ignore that they might have expected to get caught really soon and thus were not prepared for a whole day or more causing disruption and thus are just "winging it" and going on for as long as they can dare to.

I agree with the above posters that it sounds like somebody is staying mobile, using a van or something to do this, but I've also read they could be sitting in France or up the Himalayas or something, and controlling the drones from there via the internet.

Can I also remind people that we've had radio controlled aircraft for years, and that Britain is a hotbed of enthusiasts for the hobby. I myself have been involved in it for years. Small flying things are not new.

I've known a lot of people over the years who were engineering and electronic geniuses, and for all the talk of putting serial numbers on drone or granting a licence, these kind of people could easily build something like this from scratch.

I don't think it's a terrorist action. Drones in Syria have been used to drop homemade or improvised mortars, so I think if terrorists wanted to cause damage or destruction something like that would've been attempted. It seems more like deliberate sabotage. I think it's gone too far even for the most determined pranksters.

 queen_annes_revenge wrote:
I cant imagine them getting authority to start loosing off projectiles into the sky. plus firing solid shot at flying targets is notoriously difficult, and would require skilled shooters. an alternative would be to get clay/pigeon shooters to take them down with shotguns.

If a bullet goes up, it comes down. Even if you could be certain of hitting the drone the bullet would likely go thru it reflected onto a random course. It could hit and kill or injure someone.

If I we're tasked with a coming up with a solution to this sort of idiocy, I would likely make a large high performance drone designed to get over an intruding drone and from a weighted net on it to jam it's props and drag it straight down.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:


Can I also remind people that we've had radio controlled aircraft for years, and that Britain is a hotbed of enthusiasts for the hobby. I myself have been involved in it for years. Small flying things are not new.

I've known a lot of people over the years who were engineering and electronic geniuses, and for all the talk of putting serial numbers on drone or granting a licence, these kind of people could easily build something like this from scratch.

Aye, though its my understanding that most model aircraft require a decent bit of skill to fly. Plus the time in building and maintaining them I think puts so much load on investment that most who get into it are not really going to use it for a stunt like this. The worst they might stray into airspace and get a royal telling off; but they wouldn't do it out of spite or for another angle.

Drones shift it somewhat because they are nearly effortless to fly and learning with them is a lot simpler at least for basic flight. Plus they are mostly a complete kit with little assembly and their ease of flying means they are less likely to end up in a 10001 parts and require a rebuilt*. So its really only a financial investment.


That said we've had drones for years; sometimes things only happen because someone gets the idea and does it. There is potential to cause harm and mayhem with so many things in life.


*I seriously think it takes dedication in a hobby where your pride and joy can smash into little bits in a second with one incorrect flick of a finger or a tiny gust of wind going the wrong way

I wonder if this could be a government operation to generate a groundswell of support for banning/regulating drones...

 Overread wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:


Can I also remind people that we've had radio controlled aircraft for years, and that Britain is a hotbed of enthusiasts for the hobby. I myself have been involved in it for years. Small flying things are not new.

I've known a lot of people over the years who were engineering and electronic geniuses, and for all the talk of putting serial numbers on drone or granting a licence, these kind of people could easily build something like this from scratch.

Aye, though its my understanding that most model aircraft require a decent bit of skill to fly. Plus the time in building and maintaining them I think puts so much load on investment that most who get into it are not really going to use it for a stunt like this. The worst they might stray into airspace and get a royal telling off; but they wouldn't do it out of spite or for another angle.

Drones shift it somewhat because they are nearly effortless to fly and learning with them is a lot simpler at least for basic flight. Plus they are mostly a complete kit with little assembly and their ease of flying means they are less likely to end up in a 10001 parts and require a rebuilt*. So its really only a financial investment.


That said we've had drones for years; sometimes things only happen because someone gets the idea and does it. There is potential to cause harm and mayhem with so many things in life.


*I seriously think it takes dedication in a hobby where your pride and joy can smash into little bits in a second with one incorrect flick of a finger or a tiny gust of wind going the wrong way

It's heart-break to see your pride and joy end up in a black bag

and yeah, it's hard to fly these things when you first start. A lot of skill involved compared to a drone. And you don't get much flying time on a tank of fuel if you're old school, but these days it's all batteries.

OT but if anybody is interested in the hobby, trainer kits, with everything you need, are about the £150 mark. I've you've got half-decent level of hobby competence or used to doing DIY or car repairs or whatever, they're fairly straight forwsrd to build. And they fly well.

It's a good hobby to get involved in, but it's finding somewere to fly them. Best to join a club.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Techpriestsupport wrote:
I wonder if this could be a government operation to generate a groundswell of support for banning/regulating drones...

I'm going full tinfoil hat here, but whilst everybody is focused on the airport, what else is going on while we're distracted?


Reminds me of Die Hard 3. Police are running around looking for a fake bomb, but Jeremy Irons is robbing the bank.

I live within walking distance of the airport and just drove a complete circuit of the runway to and from my Christmas food shop. For half the route you drive directly alongside the runway apart from a small stretch with public and staff parking.

What was surprising is that I did not see a single policeman, solider, security guard or related vehicle at all during my circuit. I thought they would have at least had some visible presence even if just to make it look like they were more active.

The surrounding area is farm land on two sides and housing on the other two. All four directions would have a lot of good spots to pilot and recharge the drones from.

Regarding runways, there is some minor disagreement here at the moment because Gatwick does have two runways but is only allowed to use one or them with the second being used for emergency landings only. Gatwick are trying to sneakily get approval for full time use of the second runway which would mean the expansion of the airport and purchase of surrounding land plus a big increase in staff requirements and passenger numbers. Not sure this is motivation for the drone or not but is an issue (I think local activists are more likely to be having a go at fracking instead due to a number of nearby sites and recent earthquakes).

I've never bought the whole 'it is to distract us' thing. Are you seriously only able to follow a single narrative at a time?

If so, that's likely not the fault of the media.

There are currently mobile lasers that can detonate a bomb at a distance. I imagine itcs not going to be long before we could have anti drone lawyers just powerful enough to kills drone within a few hundred meters. With a range calibration factor to focus it to dangerous levels at just about the range of the drone this might be a thing someday.

https://www.israelandstuff.com/watch-idfs-mounted-laser-used-to-safely-remotely-detonate-roadside-bombs

 Techpriestsupport wrote:
I wonder if this could be a government operation to generate a groundswell of support for banning/regulating drones...

If so, the seeds will fall on fertile ground. Some of my fellow workers were complaining about being buzzed by drones while picniccing in the park and sunbathing at the beach.

I can't say I would be fussed myself. I can see the innocent fun in drones, but there's a lot of potential for naughtiness too and without any training either for legality or for piloting skills, any idiot can just buy one and start to annoy their neighbours. They get used in a different way to model airplanes, by a different kind of user.

Certainly larger drones should be regulated. And if they are flown over private property too close and/or are filming private property you should be allowed to defend yourself against the drone, and the user guilty of trespass.

 Tyranid Horde wrote:
Currently having first hand experience of this, was meant to be getting a flight at 10am this morning to be told not to come to the airport because all flights are cancelled.

Due to the fact it's Christmas there are literally no flights that I can afford to get back to Ireland in a reasonable time frame so I'm currently booking it to Holyhead to get a boat for this evening at 8pm (by booking it I mean getting a train). So that gets me as far as Dublin but my car is in Belfast which requires another train to go there.

I understand why they shut the place down but man is it a ball ache, not to mention the trauma involved with getting compensation.

Not the first time I've experienced a shut down at Gatwick. The building got evacuated a few years back because a toaster went on fire in departures.

I initially read that as 'a Lobster' went on fire in departures'.

Sympathies to all caught up in this nonsense. Hope you manage to get where you're going for Chrimbo.

To me it's a bit like mopeds and bicycles.

Ideally everyone who wants to ride a bike should take a training course and read the Highway Code, but the vehicle is basically easy to use, mostly un-threatening. In most cases responsible parents teach their children how to operate bikes responsibly. However there are an annoying number of people who disobey the rules, ride on the pavement, run red lights and so on.

Change it up to mopeds and the heavier nature of the vehicle creates more danger to the rider and other road users. A proper licensing system for both rider and vehicle becomes appropriate.

With the light "toy" drones we've got a number people who don't know the rules, or don't care, and they behave anti-socially. This is a problem which needs a social solution rather than a licensing framework.

But a licensing framework is what we will get if there is enough public annoyance. The same way that calls for bicyclists and push bikes to be licensed, since some incidents of serious hard or death in the past few years have been well publicised.