Switch Theme:

Orks are Not OP but Ghaz is. Absurdly so.  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
»
Author Message
Advert


Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
  • No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
  • Times and dates in your local timezone.
  • Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
  • Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
  • Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.




Made in gb
Mekboy on Kustom Deth Kopta






 Nitro Zeus wrote:

I also think there's a lot of close-minded Ork baddies who haven't had a chance to play him, but it's a pretty casual playerbase for that army so this reaction doesn't surprise me. It's the same people who insist playtesting and experience aren't relevant every time, and have been wrong so many times in the past about stuff they were sure about.

Please do enlighten us 'close minded Ork baddies' on how you plan to make Ghaz' a good investment against an opponent that actively screens him out, runs from him if he gets into combat with his intended target(s) and makes no effort to kill him (so won't waste damage)?
   
Made in ca
Revving Ravenwing Biker




Vancouver, BC

Jidmah wrote:Bikes have the option to advance 28" with a stratagem (3CP) so, deploying far enough back is usually not possible. But yes, the price tag on that is ridiculous.

So you're spending 3CP and way too many points to clear, at best, 140 points of my screen. Please waste your resources on this and Big G instead of doing something good.
   
Made in gb
Mekboy on Kustom Deth Kopta






 Canadian 5th wrote:
Jidmah wrote:Bikes have the option to advance 28" with a stratagem (3CP) so, deploying far enough back is usually not possible. But yes, the price tag on that is ridiculous.

So you're spending 3CP and way too many points to clear, at best, 140 points of my screen. Please waste your resources on this and Big G instead of doing something good.
I don't think Jid sees the investment of a worthwhile one. His opinion on Ghaz is very clear (he's not great).
   
Made in de
Waaagh! Ork Warboss on Warbike






Lammia wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:

Competitively, usually by jumping a unit of evil suns boyz into the screen or trying a first turn charge with storm boyz. Other options include the aforementioned bikes, bad moon shoota boyz shooting twice, various buggies and burna bommers. Depending on the game situation, lootas or flash gits might be helping out, too.
And that's removing everything?


Enough to fit in another unit of 30 boyz, a naut, a pair of dreads or 5-10 MANz next turn, so most likely enough to plonk down Thrakka as well - who doesn't compare well to any of those options, mind you.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Canadian 5th wrote:
Jidmah wrote:Bikes have the option to advance 28" with a stratagem (3CP) so, deploying far enough back is usually not possible. But yes, the price tag on that is ridiculous.

So you're spending 3CP and way too many points to clear, at best, 140 points of my screen. Please waste your resources on this and Big G instead of doing something good.

I agreed with you, you .

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/03/26 08:31:58


 Daedalus81 wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
Yes, because everyone lines up on the deployment line when facing off against orkz, especially when said orkz are fielding 3 Bonebreakers...which rely exclusively on getting into CC to inflict any kind of actual harm. All of your arguments rely upon your opponent being a brain dead muppet who just lets you maul him.


Yea...that's called board control.
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





haha, you guys are hilarious. His list dismantled my DA list quite easily (granted, he went first which made a huge difference) dishing out a lot more damage than I'd expect in shooting from orks. This was new DAs too with Talonmasters, incursor/infiltrator screens, black knights, deathwing knights etc.I also saw him take on a top well known player on ITC circuit with this list late last year and hold his own in local tournament (that was vs pre-nerf Fists).
But of course, everyone here is an armchair player that believes that the way they play is the only successful way....until it's not.
Not sure Ghaz would gel with what he has, but the question was posed as to how he cleared screens...and I answered. Took out 5 Incursors and 5 infiltrators like it was nothing. probably should have wrapped the Incursors to save bikes from Talon Masters, but that discussion was held after the turn ended.
Again, most of the responses I have seen so far are along the same ridiculous lines.
   
Made in de
Waaagh! Ork Warboss on Warbike






 bullyboy wrote:
haha, you guys are hilarious. His list dismantled my DA list quite easily (granted, he went first which made a huge difference) dishing out a lot more damage than I'd expect in shooting from orks. This was new DAs too with Talonmasters, incursor/infiltrator screens, black knights, deathwing knights etc.I also saw him take on a top well known player on ITC circuit with this list late last year and hold his own in local tournament (that was vs pre-nerf Fists).
But of course, everyone here is an armchair player that believes that the way they play is the only successful way....until it's not.
Not sure Ghaz would gel with what he has, but the question was posed as to how he cleared screens...and I answered. Took out 5 Incursors and 5 infiltrators like it was nothing. probably should have wrapped the Incursors to save bikes from Talon Masters, but that discussion was held after the turn ended.
Again, most of the responses I have seen so far are along the same ridiculous lines.


DA suck against orks though, you cannot leverage any of your army's strengths against orks.
In my experience Infiltrators/Incursors are a trap choice against orks, just screening with intercessors is much more efficient.

In general, your buddy is probably running a list very similar to the one I'm currently playing and it's all about shooting stuff off the board with mobile units, screening against that army is mostly to protect units from getting locked in combat. Thrakka doesn't really fit in here at all, especially considering how much support burna bommers and gunwagons have gotten from the new PA, making them decent choices with lots of synergy for vehicle-based orks.

Thrakka is very much a fun choice you play because you want to play Thrakka - he has no synergy with anything and "hits hard" isn't exactly a quality orks are lacking for.

Instead of wasting 2CP to tellyport him in, you can have a killaklaw bikerboss with 5 S12 AP-3 D3 attacks re-roll to wound, 2 more attacks with S4 AP-1 D1, 8 wounds and a 4++ save, who can get use the second CP to get a kustom job for 16" movement and can charge after advancing.
Why on earth would you ever want to pay +177 points to trade that for Thrakka

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2020/03/26 08:01:43


 Daedalus81 wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
Yes, because everyone lines up on the deployment line when facing off against orkz, especially when said orkz are fielding 3 Bonebreakers...which rely exclusively on getting into CC to inflict any kind of actual harm. All of your arguments rely upon your opponent being a brain dead muppet who just lets you maul him.


Yea...that's called board control.
 
   
Made in au
Sister Vastly Superior




 Jidmah wrote:
Lammia wrote:
 Jidmah wrote:

Competitively, usually by jumping a unit of evil suns boyz into the screen or trying a first turn charge with storm boyz. Other options include the aforementioned bikes, bad moon shoota boyz shooting twice, various buggies and burna bommers. Depending on the game situation, lootas or flash gits might be helping out, too.
And that's removing everything?


Enough to fit in another unit of 30 boyz, a naut, a pair of dreads or 5-10 MANz next turn, so most likely enough to plonk down Thrakka as well - who doesn't compare well to any of those options, mind you.

It's just in my SoB only player mind, that's a dead Pen. Engine at best and Thrakka still has 6 BSS to get through while taking an Exorcist and 2x 4 fully supported BR Repentia...
   
Made in de
Hurr! Ogryn Bone 'Ead!





@ NitroZeus (and some others):

I think his strength is contested by that of the generic Warboss. However, I think he's still dope on his own and is a wrecking ball that will have a sincere impact on games by the fact he either has to be totally ignored, or waters down firepower for three turns flat. Remember that he doesn't just eat 4 wounds a turn, he eats all the extra wounds on top of that that would have overkilled, it's not too simple to put a flat 4 on him turn by turn. And if he comes down late game, or gets stuck in late, he's just never getting taken off the board.
(highlight by me)

I think you missread (I did the same mistake first): it's capped at 4 wound per PHASE not per TURN. It is not at all given he survives three turns.
Each turn has several phases and various armies can make damage (and often mortal wounds) in more than one of them. So he will often eat 8 or even 12 wounds per turn and can still be killed turn one by various armies. As I wrote before just as an incomplete example for IG.
IG Turn:
before the game starts: preliminary bombardment for 1/2 mortal wound
Shooting Phase (obvious, by the way a normal Leman Russ (not even a tank commander) without any orders, rerolls, stratagems or doctrines with battlecannon, Plasma Sponsons and a Lascannon does 5 wounds to him for 174 Points if I'm not wrong)
Psychic Phase: a singly Primaris Psyker can well do 4 wounds between Smite and Psychic Maelstrom.
Charge Phase: with the new Psychic awakening stratagem each charging Ogryn/Bullgryn has a 50% Chance of doing a mortal wound, Tanks in an Emperors fist Company can do D3 Mortals
Fight Phase: the Basic 3 Bullgryn Squad does on average 4 wounds to him

Enemy turn:
Movement Phase: when Ghaz arrives from Tellyporta it should be possible to shoot him with Scions with the superior Intelligence stratagem
Shooting Phase: destroyed vehicles (especially Hellhounds) can do Mortals
Charge Phase: Vicious Traps Stratagem has 50% Chance of D3 wounds
fight Phase: damage from exploding vehicles and potentially "fire on my Position" if he kills infantry squads with Vox.


My personal opinion when I read this was: it's an interesting ability, as it rewards oponents for engaging in multiple phases instead of just blowing him away in their prefered phase. But thinking about that some more I realized that this is kind of problematic as there are some armies or lets say builds that have a harder time wounding him in multiple phases than others and some of those (like melee heavy lists) will have a harder time than they deserve.


This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/03/26 08:30:55


~1600 build and painted 
   
Made in ch
Revered Rogue Psyker





Honestly, i play sometimes a R&H army on melee. (nowadays rare due to the state they are in, but even then i just don't see him doing good against what is probably the worst faction in the game atm.)

If you field Ghazzkull i say thank you and then proceed to wrap him in one of my blobs, whilest my artillery/tanks/elites is happily hammering away at the essential parts of the ork army.

It get's even worse when you compare him to CSM beatsticks. The closest good alternative beeing the CSM DP with wings which is Half /3rd his cost, can fly, has access to relics (some vastly better ) is a psyker, or gains more A just baseline. And most importantly, CAN'T BE TARGETED.

And the CSM DP is by a long shot not the best DP available. If you then consider CP cost for the Telly, you can get even more ridicoulus combinations which don't really make it into CSM lists.




https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page

A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
_______________________________

Who would win:
10'000 + years of veterancy, or some raidy Boys?
Trick Question, of course it's the loyalists!

(Not Online in regards to the new Red Corsair battalion CP boost and 8th edition.) 
   
Made in fr
Brainy Zoanthrope



France

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
 Nitro Zeus wrote:

I also think there's a lot of close-minded Ork baddies who haven't had a chance to play him, but it's a pretty casual playerbase for that army so this reaction doesn't surprise me. It's the same people who insist playtesting and experience aren't relevant every time, and have been wrong so many times in the past about stuff they were sure about.

Please do enlighten us 'close minded Ork baddies' on how you plan to make Ghaz' a good investment against an opponent that actively screens him out, runs from him if he gets into combat with his intended target(s) and makes no effort to kill him (so won't waste damage)?

Just playtest him already. It is fairly obvious that Ghaz has the potential to be a great tool, even if, as some suggested, he does not seem competitive as of yet due to his cost and his lack of synergy with the rest of the army.
Just imagine everything you can do with a unit that cannot lose more than 4 wounds a phase ...

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/03/26 10:35:57


 
   
Made in de
Waaagh! Ork Warboss on Warbike






WhiteDog wrote:
Just imagine everything you can do with a unit that cannot lose more than 4 wounds a phase ...

Sorry, my imagination seems to have run dry. What can you do with a unit that cannot lose more than 4 wounds? And how does he get there to do that?

 Daedalus81 wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
Yes, because everyone lines up on the deployment line when facing off against orkz, especially when said orkz are fielding 3 Bonebreakers...which rely exclusively on getting into CC to inflict any kind of actual harm. All of your arguments rely upon your opponent being a brain dead muppet who just lets you maul him.


Yea...that's called board control.
 
   
Made in fr
Brainy Zoanthrope



France

 Jidmah wrote:
WhiteDog wrote:
Just imagine everything you can do with a unit that cannot lose more than 4 wounds a phase ...

Sorry, my imagination seems to have run dry. What can you do with a unit that cannot lose more than 4 wounds? And how does he get there to do that?

It's basically a rock in your opponent's shoes. He will always wonder how to efficiently remove those 4 points each phase. Some armies won't be able to deal with him at all if they are too specialized (CC armies in particular). It is very hard to not waste ressources to deal with Ghaz is what I'm trying to say.
If your opponent has any beatstick you can just glue them in place with a unit that cannot lose more than 4 wounds a battle phase. People have been talking before about CSM CC powerhouse being effectively better (in terms of mobility, flexibility, etc.) than Ghaz for less and all that is true. But none of them can win a fight against Ghaz at all : that is not a useless fact from a strategical standpoint.

I'm not saying this is sufficient to make him into a satisfying unit - as said before the fact that he has no synergy with other units is ridiculous (even with himself considering his aura does not apply to him ...). But he is far from bad.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/03/26 11:08:23


 
   
Made in us
Mutilatin' Mad Dok




Crescent City Fl..

IG dealing with Ghaz. I'll feed him conscripts until the game is over. Tripoint for the win? How many conscripts is that going to cost me?

"Pathetic earthlings. Hurling your bodies out into the void, without the slightest inkling of who or what is out here. If you had known anything about the true nature of the universe, anything at all, you would've hidden from it in terror."
My blog http://warhead01.blogspot.com/2014/02/the-art-of-ork.html 
   
Made in ch
Revered Rogue Psyker





 warhead01 wrote:
IG dealing with Ghaz. I'll feed him conscripts until the game is over. Tripoint for the win? How many conscripts is that going to cost me?


considering you won't even lower his bracket to the point he can easily wipe them?

He is 2+ to hit and 2 + to wound with what 5 attacks? Gaining more through taking damage.


4 conscripts a turn, 3.5 due morale. about 1 20 men squad for 2 turns off just having him do nothing. 3 if you invest into morale via CP. granted that is best case. so still ' id say abot 2 turns for 20 conscripts.


Edit: Sorry, thought i'd remembered wrongly, is accurate.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/03/26 12:15:29


https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page

A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
_______________________________

Who would win:
10'000 + years of veterancy, or some raidy Boys?
Trick Question, of course it's the loyalists!

(Not Online in regards to the new Red Corsair battalion CP boost and 8th edition.) 
   
Made in gb
Mekboy on Kustom Deth Kopta






WhiteDog wrote:
 An Actual Englishman wrote:
 Nitro Zeus wrote:

I also think there's a lot of close-minded Ork baddies who haven't had a chance to play him, but it's a pretty casual playerbase for that army so this reaction doesn't surprise me. It's the same people who insist playtesting and experience aren't relevant every time, and have been wrong so many times in the past about stuff they were sure about.

Please do enlighten us 'close minded Ork baddies' on how you plan to make Ghaz' a good investment against an opponent that actively screens him out, runs from him if he gets into combat with his intended target(s) and makes no effort to kill him (so won't waste damage)?

Just playtest him already. It is fairly obvious that Ghaz has the potential to be a great tool, even if, as some suggested, he does not seem competitive as of yet due to his cost and his lack of synergy with the rest of the army.
Just imagine everything you can do with a unit that cannot lose more than 4 wounds a phase ...

That hasn't answered my question. Listen, I only play with painted models and Ghaz' deserves the best paint job i can muster. By the time I get to playtest him we'll probably be in an edition where he's decent. That ain't now though. Playtesting or not.

To give you some perspective - Ghaz' could have a rule where he is literally invulnerable too all damage all game and I still wouldn't take him. He is too slow, too ponderous and way too expensive to make good use of. His damage potential is reasonable (not good) if he gets to swing against his perfect targets. But he never will (unless your opponent is giving you the game, for some reason). Do you play Orks? You sound like you don't play Orks. Ghaz is a great trap for new/poor players. He has no place in competitive lists.
   
Made in us
Mutilatin' Mad Dok




Crescent City Fl..

Not Online!!! wrote:
 warhead01 wrote:
IG dealing with Ghaz. I'll feed him conscripts until the game is over. Tripoint for the win? How many conscripts is that going to cost me?


considering you won't even lower his bracket to the point he can easily wipe them?

He is 2+ to hit and 2 + to wound with what 5 attacks? Gaining more through taking damage.


4 conscripts a turn, 3.5 due morale. about 1 20 men squad for 2 turns off just having him do nothing. 3 if you invest into morale via CP. granted that is best case. so still ' id say abot 2 turns for 20 conscripts.


Edit: Sorry, thought i'd remembered wrongly, is accurate.



Huzzah!

"Pathetic earthlings. Hurling your bodies out into the void, without the slightest inkling of who or what is out here. If you had known anything about the true nature of the universe, anything at all, you would've hidden from it in terror."
My blog http://warhead01.blogspot.com/2014/02/the-art-of-ork.html 
   
Made in ch
Revered Rogue Psyker





 warhead01 wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
 warhead01 wrote:
IG dealing with Ghaz. I'll feed him conscripts until the game is over. Tripoint for the win? How many conscripts is that going to cost me?


considering you won't even lower his bracket to the point he can easily wipe them?

He is 2+ to hit and 2 + to wound with what 5 attacks? Gaining more through taking damage.


4 conscripts a turn, 3.5 due morale. about 1 20 men squad for 2 turns off just having him do nothing. 3 if you invest into morale via CP. granted that is best case. so still ' id say abot 2 turns for 20 conscripts.


Edit: Sorry, thought i'd remembered wrongly, is accurate.



Huzzah!


further for 285 pts you get 71. 25 conscripts.

Further further: just for Funs sake: if he get's stuck in the worst possible blob to be in , aka 50 mutant blob with enforcer support (230 pts) this would lead to 7 casualities / turn or in other words 7.14 turns until he himself has cut his way out of it.


You may now start to play Mass Assault Soundtrack off your chosing whilest venerating the blood god or the emperor, or or or..

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/03/26 12:36:48


https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page

A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
_______________________________

Who would win:
10'000 + years of veterancy, or some raidy Boys?
Trick Question, of course it's the loyalists!

(Not Online in regards to the new Red Corsair battalion CP boost and 8th edition.) 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




If he was genuinely invincible he would have some play in ITC.

Really I think the playtesting is going to show that doing 3*4 wounds isn't all that difficult to do with a wide number of balanced armies. I can see it being annoying for those who don't have any psykers (Tau, Dark Eldar, wots psychic awakening anyway...).

As for "how are you smiting him" - well, he's either in my lines or not doing anything. If he's close - having charged something or failed a charge - I just advance my psykers up so he's the closest model and cast smite.

Really its about points. If he was say 120 points like Ragnar he'd be an auto-take. This might be true up to about 180. You would be asking your opponent questions - and not giving up too much if they can answer them. The fact he doesn't synergise wouldn't matter - its just an extra issue your opponent has to deal with. At 285 points though he has relatively little chance of inflicting his points worth of damage and he's giving up a lot if your opponent does put in the effort to take him off the table. You'd be better taking other things.
   
Made in fr
Brainy Zoanthrope



France

Who in their right mind will let Ghaz get stuck by a bunch of IG conscripts considering the tools the Ork army have to get rid of them ? This is silly.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
WhiteDog wrote:
 An Actual Englishman wrote:
 Nitro Zeus wrote:

I also think there's a lot of close-minded Ork baddies who haven't had a chance to play him, but it's a pretty casual playerbase for that army so this reaction doesn't surprise me. It's the same people who insist playtesting and experience aren't relevant every time, and have been wrong so many times in the past about stuff they were sure about.

Please do enlighten us 'close minded Ork baddies' on how you plan to make Ghaz' a good investment against an opponent that actively screens him out, runs from him if he gets into combat with his intended target(s) and makes no effort to kill him (so won't waste damage)?

Just playtest him already. It is fairly obvious that Ghaz has the potential to be a great tool, even if, as some suggested, he does not seem competitive as of yet due to his cost and his lack of synergy with the rest of the army.
Just imagine everything you can do with a unit that cannot lose more than 4 wounds a phase ...

That hasn't answered my question. Listen, I only play with painted models and Ghaz' deserves the best paint job i can muster. By the time I get to playtest him we'll probably be in an edition where he's decent. That ain't now though. Playtesting or not.

To give you some perspective - Ghaz' could have a rule where he is literally invulnerable too all damage all game and I still wouldn't take him. He is too slow, too ponderous and way too expensive to make good use of. His damage potential is reasonable (not good) if he gets to swing against his perfect targets. But he never will (unless your opponent is giving you the game, for some reason). Do you play Orks? You sound like you don't play Orks. Ghaz is a great trap for new/poor players. He has no place in competitive lists.

I write that Ghaz is not competitive but not bad, and you answer that I don't seem to play Ork because he's not competitive (PS: I don't play orks but I play against them).
The fact that you paint models slowly is of no interest to the discussion. Get back to the topic and respond to what is written.

This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2020/03/26 13:41:26


 
   
Made in us
Mutilatin' Mad Dok




Crescent City Fl..

WhiteDog wrote:
Who in their right mind will let Ghaz being stuck by a bunch of IG conscripts considering the tools the Ork army have to get rid of them ? This is silly.

Yes it is silly!
Stranger things have happened.
I've had grots slay a dark Archon in close combat before.

"Pathetic earthlings. Hurling your bodies out into the void, without the slightest inkling of who or what is out here. If you had known anything about the true nature of the universe, anything at all, you would've hidden from it in terror."
My blog http://warhead01.blogspot.com/2014/02/the-art-of-ork.html 
   
Made in de
Waaagh! Ork Warboss on Warbike






WhiteDog wrote:
It's basically a rock in your opponent's shoes. He will always wonder how to efficiently remove those 4 points each phase. Some armies won't be able to deal with him at all if they are too specialized (CC armies in particular).
If your opponent has any beatstick you can just glue them in place with a unit that cannot lose more than 4 wounds a battle phase. People have been talking before about CSM CC powerhouse being effectively better (in terms of mobility, flexibility, etc.) than Ghaz for less and all that is true. But none of them can win a fight against Ghaz at all : that is not a useless fact from a strategical standpoint.

I'm not saying this is sufficient to make him into a satisfying unit - as said before the fact that he has no synergy with other units is ridiculous (even with himself considering his aura does not apply to him ...). But he is far from bad.


Since you seem to be genuinely interested in this, my personal analysis of Thrakka in more detail:
I agree with you that a 4 wound cap would be very valuable on a high threat unit. Dealing 4 damage can happen really quickly if a high AP weapon rolls well, but might take long if you have to rely on rank&file guns. Having something like an executioner or doomsday ark shoot at him and lose lots of damage to overkill is a big win, too.
His value against an army unable to deal damage through shooting can pretty much be ignored - orks bring along a minimum of 60+ expendable troops models, which can just act as a wall against any assault strategy while you shoot them off the board. He doesn't really help our own assault strategies either, most other assault armies are faster than orks and thus usually get the charge on them - meaning they strike first and kill boyz in droves, not only denying the extra attack from his Waaagh!, but also reducing the value of the goff kulture trait his new re-roll aura. If you are running Goff and Thrakka already, Makari is actually a great addition, but that's a pair of huge "if"s. Also note that despite having Makari, you still need a goff pain boy for the squig combo.
Thrakka, the goff culture, skarboyz and the waaagh! banner are all solutions to a problem orks don't have: hitting hard enough in combat.

The reason why a daemon prince is a melee powerhouse is not because he can hit hard, has many attacks or can cast powers. The one reason why he is a powerhouse is because he is a character and simply cannot be shot. The other, more important one, is that he moves 12" and can FLY. When was the last time you have seen a daemon prince or hive tyrant without wings? A warboss without a bike? A smash captain without jump pack?
One of the truths of 8th edition is that there is one condition every assault unit fulfill, and that is being able to get into combat with a valuable target without dying first. Every unit which doesn't fulfill this condition is automatically doomed to be inefficient, as it cannot possibly return its investment because it either dies halfway there, or gets stuck in combat with a unit it either spends killing multiple turns, gets fed cheap, expendable units or the enemy simply moves away from them.
When you look at all the successful assault units in this edition, all of them either extremely fast (disco lords, swarmlord, shining spears, storm boyz) or have highly reliable deep strike charges (boyz, blood letters, centurions).
Only very few exceptions rely on insane durability, like bullgryns or plague bearers - and I really don't think that "only 4 wounds per phase" fits into that category.

The new Ghazghkull Thrakka has two options to get into combat. One is moving up the board 7"+d6 turn one and then move another 7" - barely getting into your enemy's deployment zone with an average charge. Unless he is going for "board control", there is either nothing to charge, or something he wants you to charge. So, in order to find good target this way, you are looking at a turn 3 charge - plenty of time to kill him or whittle him down so he can be killed in in combat.
The other options is tellyporting him in. A charge from deepstrike with 'ere we go has a chance of roughly 55% to succeed, which means that in half your games you have him sitting right in front of your opponent's army where they can try to kill, tarpit or kite him at will.
So in the end, the question of what can win a fight against Thrakka is pretty irrelevant, as he is unable to pick his fights. There are units which can defeat him in combat, there are units which can tarpit him for multiple rounds of combat and there are plenty of units which just slow him down for a turn while he gets shot down.
In this regard he also compares badly to many other options orks already have, because those can either join the Evil Suns clan and/or use the ramming speed stratagem for vastly improved odds of making their charges from deep strike, or are fast enough to just cross the board and charge in one turn.

Last, but not least, there is his gigantic point costs. Let's assume he did actually overcome all those hurdles - he still has some wounds left, he didn't get bogged down by chaff and managed to succeed his charge roll. He is now in the middle of some poor sod's Space Wolve army and then kills a unit for three turns in a row until he finally gets put down, the game ends or he is out of stuff to kill. He then still needs to kill 95 points per battleround to justify his point costs. Even if he manages to snag and destroy three eite infantry units, there is no guarantee that they cost that much. A warboss has almost made his points back the second he kills his first unit.

I agree with the assessment that points can be fixed, but without the ability to charge and advance, reliably charge from deep strikes, use transports or have some other way to cross the board faster, neither his costs nor his damage output really matter a whole lot.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/03/26 13:52:49


 Daedalus81 wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
Yes, because everyone lines up on the deployment line when facing off against orkz, especially when said orkz are fielding 3 Bonebreakers...which rely exclusively on getting into CC to inflict any kind of actual harm. All of your arguments rely upon your opponent being a brain dead muppet who just lets you maul him.


Yea...that's called board control.
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Jidmah wrote:
 bullyboy wrote:
haha, you guys are hilarious. His list dismantled my DA list quite easily (granted, he went first which made a huge difference) dishing out a lot more damage than I'd expect in shooting from orks. This was new DAs too with Talonmasters, incursor/infiltrator screens, black knights, deathwing knights etc.I also saw him take on a top well known player on ITC circuit with this list late last year and hold his own in local tournament (that was vs pre-nerf Fists).
But of course, everyone here is an armchair player that believes that the way they play is the only successful way....until it's not.
Not sure Ghaz would gel with what he has, but the question was posed as to how he cleared screens...and I answered. Took out 5 Incursors and 5 infiltrators like it was nothing. probably should have wrapped the Incursors to save bikes from Talon Masters, but that discussion was held after the turn ended.
Again, most of the responses I have seen so far are along the same ridiculous lines.


DA suck against orks though, you cannot leverage any of your army's strengths against orks.
In my experience Infiltrators/Incursors are a trap choice against orks, just screening with intercessors is much more efficient.

In general, your buddy is probably running a list very similar to the one I'm currently playing and it's all about shooting stuff off the board with mobile units, screening against that army is mostly to protect units from getting locked in combat. Thrakka doesn't really fit in here at all, especially considering how much support burna bommers and gunwagons have gotten from the new PA, making them decent choices with lots of synergy for vehicle-based orks.

Thrakka is very much a fun choice you play because you want to play Thrakka - he has no synergy with anything and "hits hard" isn't exactly a quality orks are lacking for.

Instead of wasting 2CP to tellyport him in, you can have a killaklaw bikerboss with 5 S12 AP-3 D3 attacks re-roll to wound, 2 more attacks with S4 AP-1 D1, 8 wounds and a 4++ save, who can get use the second CP to get a kustom job for 16" movement and can charge after advancing.
Why on earth would you ever want to pay +177 points to trade that for Thrakka


yep, he has the killaklaw bikerboss in the list too.
   
Made in us
Steadfast Grey Hunter





So something I haven't seen mentioned is the fact that you can pop grot shields on Ghaz/Makari and use the grots 2++ to shield Ghaz from harm. I am interpreting those rules correctly right?

DT:80S++G++MB++I+Pw40k07+D++A++/areWD-R++T(T)DM+ 
   
Made in us
Battlefortress Driver with Krusha Wheel




Douglasville, GA

You can't use Grot Shields on Ghaz, because he doesn't have the Infantry tag. Similarly you can't use it on Makari because he has the Gretchin tag. And Grot Shields removes models from play without allowing them a Save or FnP, so even if you could protect Ghaz with Makari, you'd be throwing a 60+pt model away to do it.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/03/26 14:51:56


 
   
Made in de
Waaagh! Ork Warboss on Warbike






 bullyboy wrote:
yep, he has the killaklaw bikerboss in the list too.

The +1A +1W 4++ stratagem explicitly forbids you from using it when Thrakka is in the list.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
Yes, because everyone lines up on the deployment line when facing off against orkz, especially when said orkz are fielding 3 Bonebreakers...which rely exclusively on getting into CC to inflict any kind of actual harm. All of your arguments rely upon your opponent being a brain dead muppet who just lets you maul him.


Yea...that's called board control.
 
   
Made in us
Steadfast Grey Hunter





well I meant makari being the shield for ghaz, but yeah forgot about the infantry requirement on grot shields.

DT:80S++G++MB++I+Pw40k07+D++A++/areWD-R++T(T)DM+ 
   
Made in ch
Revered Rogue Psyker





Honestly if Ghaz would've been W 9 then the tune would change allready alot.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page

A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
_______________________________

Who would win:
10'000 + years of veterancy, or some raidy Boys?
Trick Question, of course it's the loyalists!

(Not Online in regards to the new Red Corsair battalion CP boost and 8th edition.) 
   
Made in de
Waaagh! Ork Warboss on Warbike






 Aftersong wrote:
well I meant makari being the shield for ghaz, but yeah forgot about the infantry requirement on grot shields.


You can actually use Makari for grot shields, but the stratagem automatically kills him when the target unit is successfully wounded. So assuming you use Makari to shield a regular warboss, a single bolter shot succeeds to wound the boss on a 5+, Makari dies, without taking his or the warboss' saves or FNP into account.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
Yes, because everyone lines up on the deployment line when facing off against orkz, especially when said orkz are fielding 3 Bonebreakers...which rely exclusively on getting into CC to inflict any kind of actual harm. All of your arguments rely upon your opponent being a brain dead muppet who just lets you maul him.


Yea...that's called board control.
 
   
Made in us
Growlin' Guntrukk Driver with Killacannon





Not Online!!! wrote:
Honestly if Ghaz would've been W 9 then the tune would change allready alot.


Well yeah, then he wouldnt need the 4 damage a turn thing and this would all be moot

 Tactical_Spam wrote:
You never know when that leman russ will punch you back

 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Jidmah wrote:
 bullyboy wrote:
yep, he has the killaklaw bikerboss in the list too.

The +1A +1W 4++ stratagem explicitly forbids you from using it when Thrakka is in the list.

??
he doesn't have Thraka in his list, but I know he is picking him up so I wonder what changes he will make when he does.
   
 
Forum Index » 40K General Discussion
Go to: